Benefits of Public Sector over Private Sector

addaword

kippy wrote: »

First of all that's absolutely nonsensical. And totally incorrect. Yet you present it as fact.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/public-sector-pensions-worth-millions-new-figures-show-1.3143604

kippy wrote: »

Just offer every Garda on retirement a 1 million euro lump sum. Will save the state 800k each.

Or let's hear your alternative pension scheme for the Gardai?

How about offering the Gardai defined contribution pensions, the same as practically all private sector employees are reduced to, instead of defined benefit pensions? It would save the state a bigger fortune than the 800k.

barneystinson

addaword wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/public-sector-pensions-worth-millions-new-figures-show-1.3143604



How about offering the Gardai defined contribution pensions, the same as practically all private sector employees are reduced to, instead of defined benefit pensions? It would save the state a bigger fortune than the 800k.

What rate of employer contribution would you propose?

barneystinson

barneystinson wrote: »

Have you read it though.

If you have, can you explain how Horgan arrives at the hypothetical €100k figure including pension... I know the answer by the way, because I have looked at it, and I will be interested to get into the numbers with you, once we establish that you're not talking out of your hoop...

@Addaword just in case you missed this the first time...

AndrewJRenko

addaword wrote: »

How many Gardai are currently sleeping in cars would you think, given their average earnings was found in the study to be over 63k or worth over 100 k if the value of their pension was taken in to account?

I've no idea. I don't know anything about Gardai sleeping in cars. Why do you keep bringing this up with me?

AndrewJRenko

addaword wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/public-sector-pensions-worth-millions-new-figures-show-1.3143604



How about offering the Gardai defined contribution pensions, the same as practically all private sector employees are reduced to, instead of defined benefit pensions? It would save the state a bigger fortune than the 800k.

Actually, it would cost the State double the existing cost, for a generation or two at least.

The State would have to pay existing DB pensioners out of current income AND fund DC contributions for future pensioners out of the same current income.

So why don't you write to Paschal with your proposal to double pension costs for the next 40 years or so and see what he thinks? :-)

kippy

addaword wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/public-sector-pensions-worth-millions-new-figures-show-1.3143604



How about offering the Gardai defined contribution pensions, the same as practically all private sector employees are reduced to, instead of defined benefit pensions? It would save the state a bigger fortune than the 800k.

That report is nonsense.
You use a nonsense report with a very specific example of a fictional Garda to apply it across the board.

What pension should a Garda receive?
I'd suggest 800k per Garda is a bigger saving than any other nonsense you can come up with but you have absolutely no confidence in the figures you are using so it would gall you for someone to get a flat million euro payment

addaword

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I've no idea. I don't know anything about Gardai sleeping in cars. Why do you keep bringing this up with me?

Because you and another poster brought it up to illustrate how the Gardai were so poor paid, according to yourselves. I find it hard to believe there are Gardai sleeping in cars in 2020, apart maybe from the odd one doing overtime keeping remote beauty spots safe from walkers during lockdown.

barneystinson

addaword wrote: »

Because you and another poster brought it up to illustrate how the Gardai were so poor paid, according to yourselves. I find it hard to believe there are Gardai sleeping in cars in 2020, apart maybe from the odd one doing overtime keeping remote beauty spots safe from walkers during lockdown.

Have you read the report yet?

If you have, can you explain how Horgan arrives at the hypothetical €100k figure including pension... I know the answer by the way, because I have looked at it, and I will be interested to get into the numbers with you, once we establish that you're not talking out of your hoop...

AndrewJRenko

addaword wrote: »

Because you and another poster brought it up to illustrate how the Gardai were so poor paid, according to yourselves. I find it hard to believe there are Gardai sleeping in cars in 2020, apart maybe from the odd one doing overtime keeping remote beauty spots safe from walkers during lockdown.

I didn't bring it up. Go back over the thread and you'll see how you brought it up with me.

An apology from you would be in order now.

addaword

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Actually, it would cost the State double the existing cost, for a generation or two at least.

The State would have to pay existing DB pensioners out of current income AND fund DC contributions for future pensioners out of the same current income.

Not necessarily, the law can always be changed. The government raided private pensions before.
The public sector time bomb is going to cost the ordinary taxpayer 120 billion , according to David McWilliams and other economists.

A Garda who retired some years ago with his/ her average 1.8 million pension pot and who left school in the eighties with a pass leaving cert, chipped very little in to the pension pot themselves.

addaword

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I didn't bring it up.

.

It was another poster and you.
Go back over the thread and see.
It makes no difference to me, I am calling bluff on your claim about Gardai sleeping in cars. They are not that badly paid.

addaword

barneystinson wrote: »

Have you read the report yet?

If you have, can you explain how Horgan arrives at the hypothetical €100k figure including pension... I know the answer by the way, because I have looked at it, and I will be interested to get into the numbers with you, once we establish that you're not talking out of your hoop...

Of course, and it was explained earlier. Do waken up.

addaword

addaword wrote: »

Because you and another poster brought it up to illustrate how the Gardai were so poor paid, according to yourselves. I find it hard to believe there are Gardai sleeping in cars in 2020, apart maybe from the odd one doing overtime keeping remote beauty spots safe from walkers during lockdown.

Again for maybe the twentieth time. The average includes the commissioner and senior officers. It's includes a lot of overtime. A lot.

It is nowhere near what your bottom Garda is earning because not only see they not paid the average salary but most overtime is in select stations.

What's the average salary for full-time solicitors? If we are going to choose a random section then let's have at it.

Or you can select an architect.

We can use builders of you want provided you include all the specialists and the actual owners of the company.

No? Too selective? Let's just chose a company and not a career.

What's the average full-time salary in Google? Again including Mr and Mrs Google themselves.

You can use Facebook instead. I believe Mr Zuckerberg actually only paid himself 1 Dollar in 2020. You think that's an accurate references l reflection of his income? You think that 1 Dollar is used in the average salary or do you think they use his actual income which was 'compensation' for expertise and other nonsense at $22,554,543.

Shame the Gardai don't have the same accountants but they are probably private sector and spend more time helping the client avoid paying tax and limiting his declared income anyway. Wonder what their average salary is???

And that, is why your argument is and always had been nonsense. You cherry pick a set area, use numbers That are based on total income across that area and then try to compare them to different numbers from a wider net that are based on different criteria. You ignore hours actually worked. You ignore what people are actually in each set of numbers or more importantly, not included. You ignore the education level unless it happens to benefit your argument, then it's a huge part.

As you have been asked in each and every thread, decide what industry is comparable to the Gardai. Then decide what rank / level we are comparing. Then actually spend time doing your own research to find that set positions actual income pet hour. Then we can compare. I'll help you out, you are probable best sticking to the low Garda rank because the commissioner does not make the same as an owner / CEO of a company with 15000+ employees. The same people that are rarely included in your private sector numbers as they don't divulge their profits publicly

AndrewJRenko

addaword wrote: »

It was another poster and you.
Go back over the thread and see.
It makes no difference to me, I am calling bluff on your claim about Gardai sleeping in cars. They are not that badly paid.

It wasn't me. You brought it up with me. I made no such claim, so the only bluff you're calling is your own usual bluffing. An apology from you would be in order.

addaword wrote: »

Not necessarily, the law can always be changed. The government raided private pensions before.
The public sector time bomb is going to cost the ordinary taxpayer 120 billion , according to David McWilliams and other economists.

It's not a matter of the law. You don't seem to understand how DC pensions work. DC pensions work by investing over the long term and benefiting from investment return over 40 years approx. So to make a DC pension viable, it needs a long term investment.

At the same time as that investment, we'll need to pay the pensions of existing Garda pensioners. So there's the doubling of pension costs over that period.

Unless you're suggesting that the State renege on its contractual commitment to existing pensioners, and indeed existing staff - people who in good faith made employment decisions based on their contract.

The State can of course always change tax laws applying to all pensioners at any time.

So perhaps you could clarify what you're proposing here? Are you proposing that the State should walk away from contractual commitments, or should increase tax on all pensioners?

barneystinson

addaword wrote: »

Of course, and it was explained earlier. Do waken up.

Where? Show me where you have demonstrated that you actually know how Horgan arrived at this notional€100k...

addaword

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

The average includes the commissioner and senior officers. It's includes a lot of overtime. A lot.

It is nowhere near what your bottom Garda is earning because not only see they not paid the average salary but most overtime is in select stations.

You do not seem to have read the report. You do not seem to understand how averages work.

As said before, here is some information, for the benefit of slow learners.

Here is the quote from the Irish Times:

"The report found that, when new recruits were excluded, 10 per cent of gardaí earned more than €74,000; while 10 per cent of gardaí earned less than €54,000.

For rank and file gardaí (of which there were 9,791), the average pay was €63,327.

For sergeants (of which there were 1,922) the average was €72,690.

For inspectors (of which there were 317), the average was € 85,423.

For superintendents (of which there were 162), the average was €87,699.

For chief superintendents (of which there were 44), the average was €101,161."

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crim...02538?mode=amp

"The report says that the average pay for gardaí across the force last year was €63,450.

However it says if the value of the cost of the provision of pensions was taken into account, total remuneration for gardaí would be in excess of €100,000."

Treppen

addaword wrote: »

You do not seem to have read the report. You do not seem to understand how averages work.

As said before, here is some information, for the benefit of slow learners.

Here is the quote from the Irish Times:

"The report found that, when new recruits were excluded, 10 per cent of gardaí earned more than €74,000; while 10 per cent of gardaí earned less than €54,000.

For rank and file gardaí (of which there were 9,791), the average pay was €63,327.

For sergeants (of which there were 1,922) the average was €72,690.

For inspectors (of which there were 317), the average was € 85,423.

For superintendents (of which there were 162), the average was €87,699.

For chief superintendents (of which there were 44), the average was €101,161."

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crim...02538?mode=amp

"The report says that the average pay for gardaí across the force last year was €63,450.

However it says if the value of the cost of the provision of pensions was taken into account, total remuneration for gardaí would be in excess of €100,000."

Is the free coffee factored in?

addaword

Treppen wrote: »

Is the free coffee factored in?

I understand there were a few years ago 54 Garda allowances, but coffee was not one of them.

ParkRunner

addaword wrote: »

You do not seem to have read the report. You do not seem to understand how averages work.

As said before, here is some information, for the benefit of slow learners.

Here is the quote from the Irish Times:

"The report found that, when new recruits were excluded, 10 per cent of gardaí earned more than €74,000; while 10 per cent of gardaí earned less than €54,000.

For rank and file gardaí (of which there were 9,791), the average pay was €63,327.

For sergeants (of which there were 1,922) the average was €72,690.

For inspectors (of which there were 317), the average was € 85,423.

For superintendents (of which there were 162), the average was €87,699.

For chief superintendents (of which there were 44), the average was €101,161."

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crim...02538?mode=amp

"The report says that the average pay for gardaí across the force last year was €63,450.

However it says if the value of the cost of the provision of pensions was taken into account, total remuneration for gardaí would be in excess of €100,000."

Including overtime & allowances and excluding new entrants and the pension levy deduction (just for balance).

addaword

ParkRunner wrote: »

Including overtime & allowances and excluding new entrants

When it says "For rank and file gardaí (of which there were 9,791), the average pay was €63,327.", that was for all rank and file gardai.

barneystinson

addaword wrote: »

When it says "For rank and file gardaí (of which there were 9,791), the average pay was €63,327.", that was for all rank and file gardai.

Have you read the actual report yet? Do you know the mechanics of how Horgan arrived at this much vaunted 100k...??

addaword

barneystinson wrote: »

Have you read the actual report yet? Do you know the mechanics of how Horgan arrived at this much vaunted 100k...??

I answered that question already. I suggest you read the report yourself. You obviously do not enjoy what you read, but you should read it as well all the same.

SouthWesterly

addaword wrote: »

I answered that question already. I suggest you read the report yourself. You obviously do not enjoy what you read, but you should read it as well all the same.

How can the average pay be 63k when top of the scale for most gardai is 54k?

addaword

addaword wrote: »

I answered that question already. I suggest you read the report yourself. You obviously do not enjoy what you read, but you should read it as well all the same.

have you read the report yet.

are you confident that you understand its methodology such that you can answer the questions you've been dodging around its apparent shortfalls in credibility

if not- and i note the four or five problems have been raised numerous times without you having been able to do so- then your constant return to a nonsense notional figure of 100k has zero credibility and you ought to stop referencing it

i cannot see the difference between your behaviour around this specific key figure and flat-out trolling tbh

addaword

SouthWesterly wrote: »

How can the average pay be 63k when top of the scale for most gardai is 54k?

You are nearly as bad as Barney. It was explained multiple times. Some Gardai get promoted and earn more than 54k, sometimes considerably more. Add in the many dozens of allowances Gardai get. Add in some overtime. That way the average pay was over 63k. And that is before looking at the benefit of the pension entitlement down the line.

addaword

addaword wrote: »

You are nearly as bad as Barney. It was explained multiple times. Some Gardai get promoted and earn more than 54k, sometimes considerably more. Add in the many dozens of allowances Gardai get. Add in some overtime. That way the average pay was over 63k. And that is before looking at the benefit of the pension entitlement down the line.

I know this arkward question will be ignored, just as all arkward questions are ignored but I shall ask again, for the third time in the third thread.

What allowances are you referring to?

And an increase of 10k per annum is a lot more than "some overtime".

I should also ask, why were new recruits excluded and what service was considered a 'new recruit's?b it's almost as if they were trying to inflate the numbers isn't it?

If a Garda gets promoted shouldn't his numbers be in the Sergeant section?

Now, about the comparison to architects, what's the average private sector architect on? Facebook staff?

Compared to say, a public sector police officer who you think are so terrible overpaid despite now admitting that the average salary you refer to includes more than a 40 hour week. More like 50 hours I would say.

What's the average private sector salary for 50 hours?

Sinzo

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

I know this arkward question will be ignored, just as all arkward questions are ignored but I shall ask again, for the third time in the third thread.

What allowances are you referring to?

And an increase of 10k per annum is a lot more than "some overtime".

I should also ask, why were new recruits excluded and what service was considered a 'new recruit's?b it's almost as if they were trying to inflate the numbers isn't it?

If a Garda gets promoted shouldn't his numbers be in the Sergeant section?

Now, about the comparison to architects, what's the average private sector architect on? Facebook staff?

Compared to say, a public sector police officer who you think are so terrible overpaid despite now admitting that the average salary you refer to includes more than a 40 hour week. More like 50 hours I would say.

What's the average private sector salary for 50 hours?

Not to mention public service and dealing with the most difficult parts of society and risking life and limb when dealing with deadly criminals.. an average income of 64k (that takes into account overtime and expenses doesn't look overpaid to me). There isn't even an equivalent job in the private sector and if there was, I dare say, they would be looking for a lot more. Should they get a decent pension. Of course they should. It's not like they will have an opulent pensionhood on 32k. Where wi they spend that money? Generally in the economy .. where private sector workers wi be happy to receive it...

ParkRunner

addaword wrote: »

When it says "For rank and file gardaí (of which there were 9,791), the average pay was €63,327.", that was for all rank and file gardai.

You do agree that figure excludes new entrants, plus gardai who earned less than €40k (as stated in the report), is a gross figure (so pension related deduction is excluded) and includes overtime and allowances?

addaword

Sinzo wrote: »

. It's not like they will have an opulent pensionhood on 32k. ...

It's a hell of a lot more opulent personhood than the average private sector employee enjoys. And do not forget the huge tax free "gratuity" lump sum public servants get on retirement, 18 months salary.

You would be mad to leave your public sector job, we can all agree on that.

barneystinson

addaword wrote: »

I answered that question already. I suggest you read the report yourself. You obviously do not enjoy what you read, but you should read it as well all the same.

No, you didn't answer the question about the 100k. You don't have a breeze how Horgan arrives at his admittedly makey-uppy 100k figure, do you?