Benefits of Public Sector over Private Sector

AndrewJRenko

addaword wrote: »

I was replying to a poster who said if the the Gardai were so well paid how come some were sleeping in cars? It was not me who brought up Gardai sleeping in cars. Check your facts and look back at the thread. An apology from you would be the right thing for you to do.

I never brought it up. The only time I mentioned sleeping in cars was to tell you that you were wrong to say that I had mentioned it. You're the one who brought it up, my friend. An apology from you would be the right thing for you to do.

addaword

barneystinson wrote: »

So what're you nitpicking with me about.

I am not nitpicking with you. I am simply saying it was the Irish Times, not the Indo, I quoted from. Read the link yourself, which quotes the report. Or better still, read the actual report yourself too as well.

addaword

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I never brought it up.

Oh yes you did.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It does sound like a financial problem though, doesn't it? Who'd be sleeping in their car if they could afford to rent a room?

Anytime I mentioned it, it was in reply to you or Parkrunner who brought it up.

ParkRunner wrote: »

The Irish Times and other media also reported that some Gardaí had to sleep in their cars because their income is so low following the cuts that were made. They reported on the report and its findings

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/pay-reductions-see-some-garda%C3%AD-sleeping-in-their-cars-1.2191765

An apology from you would be in order.

AndrewJRenko

addaword wrote: »

Oh yes you did.



Anytime I mentioned it, it was in reply to you or Parkrunner who brought it up.



An apology from you would be in order.

I mentioned it in direct response to your post

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113846536&postcount=592

Remember that one?

An apology from you would be in order.

addaword

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I mentioned it in direct response to your post

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113846536&postcount=592

Remember that one?

Yes, and that followed Parkrunners comment who claimed "the Irish Times and other media also reported that some Gardaí had to sleep in their cars because their income is so low following the cuts that were made. "

You questioned how their "huge, inflated salaries weren't enough to get them through some tough times with their property investments?"

I was replying to you.

It was Parkrunner who originally brought it up. An apology from you would be in order.

AndrewJRenko

addaword wrote: »

Yes, and that followed Parkrunners comment who claimed "the Irish Times and other media also reported that some Gardaí had to sleep in their cars because their income is so low following the cuts that were made. "

You questioned how their "huge, inflated salaries weren't enough to get them through some tough times with their property investments?"

I was replying to you.

It was Parkrunner who originally brought it up. An apology from you would be in order.

You were replying to me, and you talked about sleeping in cars - something I had never mentioned.

So it was you that brought it up with me, before I responded to you. It's all there in the thread.

An apology from you would be in order.

addaword

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You were replying to me, and you talked about sleeping in cars - something I had never mentioned.

So it was you that brought it up with me, before I responded to you. It's all there in the thread.

An apology from you would be in order.

It was not me who brought up Gardai sleeping in cars. It was Parkrunner. I answered questions on same from Parkrunner and you. Check your facts and look back at the thread. An apology from you would be the right thing for you to do.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It does sound like a financial problem though, doesn't it? Who'd be sleeping in their car if they could afford to rent a room?

You still have not answered the question I asked in reply to your post above, and are trying to deflect. As asked before, if you are a Garda who made unwise property investments during the credit boom of the Celtic tiger, do you know how hard it would be to keep things going on the average Garda salary of € 63,450? And not many Gardai are sleeping in cars now anyway. I think that that was a bit of an urban legend you heard but sure you would believe anything. How many Gardai do you think are currently sleeping in cars?

barneystinson

addaword wrote: »

I am not nitpicking with you. I am simply saying it was the Irish Times, not the Indo, I quoted from. Read the link yourself, which quotes the report. Or better still, read the actual report yourself too as well.

Have you read it? Why should I read it, when you haven't, and are choosing to SELECTIVELY quote second or third hand accounts of its contents.

ParkRunner

The €63k figure includes a huge chunk of overtime, which has since been suspended in a number of districts by the current Commissioner.

A rational analysis of salary would not factor in irregular payments such as overtime.

Gardaí sleeping in cars is an extreme example but it’s an example of reporting with an agenda, the same lazy analysis that would have a headline saying Gardaí have an average salary of €63k (or €100k when you factor in a back of an envelope pension valuation), when the Garda payscale goes from €31.5k - €54.5k approx.

addaword

barneystinson wrote: »

Have you read it? Why should I read it, when you haven't, and are choosing to SELECTIVELY quote second or third hand accounts of its contents.

Yes I have read it. Why should I engage with you when you have not read it and when you have the audacity to make false accusations about others not reading g it? You may not like what you read but you should still read it.

kippy

addaword wrote: »

Yes I have read it. Why should I engage with you when you have not read it and when you have the audacity to make false accusations about others not reading g it? You may not like what you read but you should still read it.

The report is inaccurate, selective and five years old. Not sure why you place so much relevance in it.
The 'package' calculation is never something I have seen before and there's absolutely no effort made to outline how the pensions figure of the package is calculated.
Maybe a better way to work this one out is use the net salary figure minus 13k, plus whatever notional pension figure you want to add (say 35k for nonsense sake) and surely that is the real package worth to the Garda hired post 95?
Which for someone on top of the r and f scale with 10 k overtime would come in at closer to 65k per annum including that 35k pension estimate.
(You won't be able to work out why I've done it like that mind you but most people will)

addaword

ParkRunner wrote: »

A rational analysis of salary would not factor in irregular payments such as overtime.

You are wrong yet again.
It was an analysis of earnings and what the job is worth. In financial terms to the average Garda.

It looked at and took in to account all Garda earnings, including those of Gardai who got promotion etc

As you raised the issue of Gardai sleeping in cars, how many are sleeping in cars in 2020? And I do not mean those in cars at beauty spots around the country doing overtime during the pandemic, waiting to catch those people wanting to go for a walk where they were not supposed to etc.

addaword

kippy wrote: »

The 'package' calculation is never something I have seen before and there's absolutely no effort made to outline how the pensions figure of the package is calculated.
)

Try reading the actual report, and look at the figures in it, rather that just the report in the Irish Times, which was 3 years ago, not five. Incidentally the Garda Commissioners has warned about the very high levels of overtime this year, which are way ahead of budget. The Gardai were busy patrolling areas when the rest of us were at home. They did a good job in fairness.

kippy

addaword wrote: »

You are wrong yet again.
It was an analysis of earnings and what the job is worth. In financial terms to the average Garda.

It looked at and took in to account all Garda earnings, including those of Gardai who got promotion etc

As you raised the issue of Gardai sleeping in cars, how many are sleeping in cars in 2020? And I do not mean those in cars at beauty spots around the country doing overtime during the pandemic, waiting to catch those people wanting to go for a walk where they were not supposed to etc.

What do you think of my own analysis of what the job is worth to a Garda?
I took into account net figures and the COAP or OAP which pretty much anyone who works or indeed doesn't work gets.

kippy

addaword wrote: »

Try reading the actual report, and look at the figures in it, rather that just the report in the Irish Times, which was 3 years ago, not five. Incidentally the Garda Commissioners has warned about the very high levels of overtime this year, which are way ahead of budget. The Gardai were busy patrolling areas when the rest of us were at home. They did a good job in fairness.

There is no accurate outline in any of those documents how the pension figure is arrived at.

whampiri

I haven't seen a chip on a shoulder this big since my last decent Sunday roast.

There's very little point in disagreeing with addaword as he is firmly rooted to his opinion which comes from an outdated report which fails to make any comparisons to other similar jobs.

Looking to our nearest neighbours, they claim their pension after 30 years and earn similar money. In fact, if we take a more recent link you'll see that the average Garda earns about 39k.
https://www.payscale.com/research/IE/Job=Police_Officer/Salary
Add in your pension there and you're looking at a package worth about 60k which is a far cry from the 100k thats being thrown about.

Addaword fails to acknowledge the inherently dangerous role, that overtime is paid for work completed, that allowances are needed for unsocial hours of work, the fact that gardai are more prone to violent attacks which can leave them badly injured, the need to ensure that we have young and able gardai on the force and so allow gardai to retire early and that the figure quoted is an average and not modal figure. In addition to this, police worldwide who are paid well tend not turn to criminality for payoffs or bribes which, given their role is key to maintaining law and order in the state.

ParkRunner

addaword wrote: »

You are wrong yet again.
It was an analysis of earnings and what the job is worth. In financial terms to the average Garda.

It looked at and took in to account all Garda earnings, including those of Gardai who got promotion etc

As you raised the issue of Gardai sleeping in cars, how many are sleeping in cars in 2020? And I do not mean those in cars at beauty spots around the country doing overtime during the pandemic, waiting to catch those people wanting to go for a walk where they were not supposed to etc.

It is definitely possible for a Garda working way above contracted hours to earn about €63k gross, especially when they do weekend and night shifts. Such a premium is normal for working through the night and weekends or working way above the hours contracted for. With extra recruitment and a crack down on overtime over the years the average Garda is probably working closer to contracted hours.

I have no idea how many Gardaí have to sleep in cars, but I’m sure many of them through their work benefit the State far in excess of their salaries through drugs busts, fraud convictions, proceeds of crime seizures etc

AndrewJRenko

addaword wrote: »

It was not me who brought up Gardai sleeping in cars. It was Parkrunner. I answered questions on same from Parkrunner and you. Check your facts and look back at the thread. An apology from you would be the right thing for you to do.

You brought up the issue with me before I brought it up with you. It's all there in this post, no matter how many times you try to spin otherwise.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113846536&postcount=592

I didn't ask you any question about sleeping in cars prior to this post.

An apology from you would be the right thing for you to do.

addaword wrote: »

You still have not answered the question I asked in reply to your post above, and are trying to deflect. As asked before, if you are a Garda who made unwise property investments during the credit boom of the Celtic tiger, do you know how hard it would be to keep things going on the average Garda salary of € 63,450? And not many Gardai are sleeping in cars now anyway. I think that that was a bit of an urban legend you heard but sure you would believe anything. How many Gardai do you think are currently sleeping in cars?

I haven't answered your question because I don't know anything about Gardai sleeping in cars. I didn't bring it up. You brought it up with me.

SouthWesterly

ParkRunner wrote: »

It is definitely possible for a Garda working way above contracted hours to earn about €63k gross, especially when they do weekend and night shifts. Such a premium is normal for working through the night and weekends or working way above the hours contracted for. With extra recruitment and a crack down on overtime over the years the average Garda is probably working closer to contracted hours.

I have no idea how many Gardaí have to sleep in cars, but I’m sure many of them through their work benefit the State far in excess of their salaries through drugs busts, fraud convictions, proceeds of crime seizures etc

It's possible for a guard to earn over 100k with overtime and some do.

ParkRunner

SouthWesterly wrote: »

It's possible for a guard to earn over 100k with overtime and some do.

No doubt some do. The high average skewed by overtime is more an indication that more Gardaí were or are still needed rather than an indication of high salaries

kippy

SouthWesterly wrote: »

It's possible for a guard to earn over 100k with overtime and some do.

I'd say its possible for ANYONE to earn over 100K with overtime but that's got nothing to do with the discussion here......

barneystinson

addaword wrote: »

Yes I have read it. Why should I engage with you when you have not read it and when you have the audacity to make false accusations about others not reading g it? You may not like what you read but you should still read it.

Have you read it though.

If you have, can you explain how Horgan arrives at the hypothetical €100k figure including pension... I know the answer by the way, because I have looked at it, and I will be interested to get into the numbers with you, once we establish that you're not talking out of your hoop...

Sinzo

Pkiernan wrote: »

You're right, I grossly underestimated it.

The Paid Sick Leave scheme provides for a maximum of 92 days on full pay in a rolling one year period, followed by a maximum of 91 days on half pay.

This is subject to a maximum of 183 days paid sick leave in a rolling four year period.

Yes. That is a fact. But you do have to be medically certified to be covered. If you are genuinely ill then it is a great advantage but the entitlement ends once the 183 days are up. Then you have exhausted your entitlement and you have to look elsewhere for support. If you go to social welfare you will not qualify for illness benefit unless you paid the correct PRSI. In such a circumstance you will have to be means tested for any other possible assistance payment.
This advantage is all very well and good but it's only an advantage if you are genuinely ill. Hopefully you wont be that ill so the advantage is a moot point.

addaword

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It does sound like a financial problem though, doesn't it? Who'd be sleeping in their car if they could afford to rent a room?

How many Gardai are currently sleeping in cars would you think, given their average earnings was found in the study to be over 63k or worth over 100 k if the value of their pension was taken in to account?

addaword

ParkRunner wrote: »

I have no idea how many Gardaí have to sleep in cars,

Why did you bring up the subject of Gardai sleeping in cars so, before I or anyone else commented on it? An individual in society can end up sleeping in a car for all sorts of reasons.

ParkRunner

addaword wrote: »

Why did you bring up the subject of Gardai sleeping in cars so, before I or anyone else commented on it? An individual in society can end up sleeping in a car for all sorts of reasons.

To demonstrate that a report in the Irish Times shouldn’t be taken as gospel or a reflection of present circumstances.

barneystinson

addaword wrote: »

How many Gardai are currently sleeping in cars would you think, given their average earnings was found in the study to be over 63k or worth over 100 k if the value of their pension was taken in to account?

Well this may leave you stunned and amazed, but that extra makey uppy 37k to get from 63 to 100, isn't actually money that can be spent. By anyone. Because it doesn't actually exist...

kippy

barneystinson wrote: »

Well this may leave you stunned and amazed, but that extra makey uppy 37k to get from 63 to 100, isn't actually money that can be spent. By anyone. Because it doesn't actually exist...

Never mind that there are things called tax and pensions contributions applied to the initial 63k.
Problem is some posters don't believe public servants contribute to their pensions or pay income tax.

addaword

barneystinson wrote: »

Well this may leave you stunned and amazed, but that extra makey uppy 37k to get from 63 to 100, isn't actually money that can be spent. By anyone. Because it doesn't actually exist...

It exists for the Gardai, all €1.8 million of it on average according to the various reports, when they retire after only 30 years service. It can be spent then, by them and their spouses over 20, 30, 40. 50 years.
Let us abolish it if it does not exist, it will save the taxpayer tens of billions.

kippy

addaword wrote: »

It exists for the Gardai, all €1.8 million of it on average according to the various reports, when they retire after only 30 years service. It can be spent then, by them and their spouses over 20, 30, 40. 50 years.
Let us abolish it if it does not exist, it will save the taxpayer tens of billions.

First of all that's absolutely nonsensical. And totally incorrect. Yet you present it as fact.

Let's assume it's worth that for a minute.
Just offer every Garda on retirement a 1 million euro lump sum. Will save the state 800k each.

Or let's hear your alternative pension scheme for the Gardai?
How and what should Gardai retire on?