Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IV - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

average_runner

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

I think you are confused, its not "hardly anybody would die from covid" its NOBODY IN MEAT PLANTS DIED OFF COVID, OUT OF 1,100 bloody infections.

NO SUPERMARKET STAFF HAS DIED OFF COVID and they been at it for the last 3 months, 7 days a week.

In fact out of 23,000 + staff working in Aldi, Lidl, Tesco over the last 3 months less than 80 infections were reported. What an infectious disease indeed.....

But this is down to the precautions we have taken. Screens protecting the staff. People behaving responsible. People not bringing kids when no need to.


We have change our ways to protect this area. I wouldn't down play this virus though.

average_runner

is_that_so wrote: »

It's how they do causes of death. Cancer might well have killed them in 3 months but COVID was the overt cause. Oh and heart disease is the big underlying condition, not cancer.

But heart disease might not kill them for years. For example my father had two valves replaced and a pace maker.


He is healthy now but the virus would kill him

leanin2019

While current numbers are very good, when you think how easily it came from China to Europe, and how widespread it is across the globe at the moment, it seems inevitable that cases will pick up again eventually as everything opens back up.

However the social distance and 14 day quarantine rules for travelers might help to continue to keep this at bay.

I don't see the appetite for a full lockdown again though even if cases rise considerably, maybe localized or restricted to limited sectors.

As long as the hospitals can cope with the numbers.

Also while the risk of serious illness or death to the individual is low, its a contagious virus so if you multiple that out across the entire population your talking huge numbers irrespective of what might have otherwise killed them within a few months or not.

MickeyLeari

Anyone have access to this

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/even-temporary-economic-return-better-than-nothing-39284319.html

is_that_so

average_runner wrote: »

But heart disease might not kill them for years. For example my father had two valves replaced and a pace maker.


He is healthy now but the virus would kill him

I'm just pointing out what the primary underlying condition is not guessing what effect it will have on anyone.

Ginger n Lemon

FishOnABike wrote: »

Not confused at all. Even if none of the approx. 1100 meat plant workers diagnosed with CoViD-19 died, and that seems questionable based on Penfaild's post
the risk to the wider community of an uncontained cluster is more significant from a public health, and indeed economic, point of view.

I wouldn't read too much into the fact that only a small number of supermarket workers, who have relatively brief interaction with a customer, practicing physical distancing and behind a perspex screen, have contracted CoViD-19. If anything it could be used to argue for the efficacy of protective measures.

Latest news - infectious disease less infectious when anti infection measures taken.

This is getting so difficult. Why do you keep saying even if? Penfailed thought Tyrone is in Republic of Ireland, it is not.

"Almost 1,100 Covid-19 cases have been confirmed at 20 meat plants around the country to date

"The majority of cases in meat plants have been male and aged 25-44, 29 people had to be admitted to hospital and seven patients were treated in ICU, but there have been no deaths."

https://www.thejournal.ie/covid-19-testing-at-meat-plants-5121171-Jun2020/

There is no even if.

7 out of 1,100 in ICU. 3 months, thats 2 people going to ICU from meatplant covid infections per month. There is a reason our hospitals have been empty, its not because average Joe working in Penneys was staying at home, its because this thing does not posses anywhere near the harm to normal working person that we have been scare mongered to believe in by Simon and Tony cause for concern H.

This is actual proof. Out of 8000 healthcare workers who got covid, 8 died. Do i need to do numbers here? the 0.000% etc?

Its absolutely criminal we keep huge amount of businesses closed even for this week let alone next 2 weeks.

hmmm

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

7 out of 1,100 in ICU.

7 out of 1100 end up in ICU in plants where most people are under 45 is nothing to be concerned about? Besides we know that the death rate for this skews heavily towards older people (after about 55 it starts rising fairly rapidly).

These people I imagine also don't actually live in the plant, and go home to their families and friends every day. Let's hope none of them have partners or children with diabetes or asthma, and let's hope none of them want to visit grandparents or other older relatives.

Ginger n Lemon

hmmm wrote: »

7 out of 1100 end up in ICU in plants where most people are under 45 is nothing to be concerned about? Besides we know that the death rate for this skews heavily towards older people (after about 55 it starts rising fairly rapidly).

These people I imagine also don't actually live in the plant, and go home to their families and friends every day. Let's hope none of them have partners or children with diabetes or asthma, and let's hope none of them want to visit grandparents or other older relatives.

Report never said that all were healthy athletes.....

People who work in these labour intensive jobs tend to smoke a lot, I know couple of them.

And still, powering through. Did all 1,100 have no underlying conditions? odds are some of them had.

And still, no deaths.

Factual data, providing reality check for all the scaremongers and scared teachers.

khalessi

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Report never said that all were healthy athletes.....

People who work in these labour intensive jobs tend to smoke a lot, I know couple of them.

And still, powering through. Did all 1,100 have no underlying conditions? odds are some of them had.

And still, no deaths.

Factual data, providing reality check for all the scaremongers and scared teachers.

Re Factual data, teachers are not scared they have to follow the same guidelines as everyone else. Perhaps any ire you feel should be directed to NPHET and Dept of Ed.

ShooterSF

kwestfan08 wrote: »

Wouldn't they belong to the UK's figures then?

mloc123 wrote: »

Tyrone is not in this country..

Jesus. Cold. Stone cold.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

Will I be allowed to travel Dublin to Galway on the 20th of July? The hotel has accepted my refundable booking.

Goldengirl

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

This is getting so difficult. Why do you keep saying even if? Penfailed thought Tyrone is in Republic of Ireland, it is not.

"Almost 1,100 Covid-19 cases have been confirmed at 20 meat plants around the country to date

"The majority of cases in meat plants have been male and aged 25-44, 29 people had to be admitted to hospital and seven patients were treated in ICU, but there have been no deaths."

https://www.thejournal.ie/covid-19-testing-at-meat-plants-5121171-Jun2020/

There is no even if.

7 out of 1,100 in ICU. 3 months, thats 2 people going to ICU from meatplant covid infections per month. There is a reason our hospitals have been empty, its not because average Joe working in Penneys was staying at home, its because this thing does not posses anywhere near the harm to normal working person that we have been scare mongered to believe in by Simon and Tony cause for concern H.

This is actual proof. Out of 8000 healthcare workers who got covid, 8 died. Do i need to do numbers here? the 0.000% etc?

Its absolutely criminal we keep huge amount of businesses closed even for this week let alone next 2 weeks.

Firstly these clusters were caught quickly , thanks to whistleblowers, and the "fact " that 7 ended up in ICU does give you an idea that even in younger workers this is serious. Don't have a breakdown but if average 1 in 5 has serious illness that is over 200 people quite ill .
If you look at UK figures a higher proportion of younger and previously healthy people are dying every day because they allowed the viral load to increase in the community before shutting down .
Numbers of healthcare workers infected is 8018 as of end of May , with 8 deaths, a third of those infected are nurses , the largest proportion, and yes 8 deaths in the sector , despite rigorous PPE and isolation of patients . 88% of nurses acquire the infection at work, it is generally believed because of the higher viral load in a hospital setting .
I don't consider that a win , people dying because they are working in essential areas . These workers have no choice but to get up and show up everyday .
I am grateful for those out there who have the common sense and decency to respect that and want to keep that thought foremost in their minds when we are lifting restrictions.
It is not that restrictions should be kept forever , but respect that this is a dangerous illness and more dangerous to those who have to continue working in frontline areas .

firemansam4

average_runner wrote:

But this is down to the precautions we have taken. Screens protecting the staff. People behaving responsible. People not bringing kids when no need to.

We have change our ways to protect this area. I wouldn't down play this virus though.

Just on this....

I can only speak for myself but I have been in many shops where I have seen customers paying for items at the side of these protection screens on many occasions.

Goldengirl

is_that_so wrote: »

It's how they do causes of death. Cancer might well have killed them in 3 months but COVID was the overt cause. Oh and heart disease is the big underlying condition, not cancer.

Yes. Hypertension , heart disease and diabetes are main underlying conditions .
There are plenty of younger people with diabetes, and a lot of 50+ with hypertension and heart disease.
Also pulmonary disease .

Stheno

Goldengirl wrote: »

Yes. Hypertension , heart disease and diabetes are main underlying conditions .
There are plenty of younger people with diabetes, and a lot of 50+ with hypertension and heart disease.
Also pulmonary disease .

Is obesity a big factor here?

Goldengirl

Stheno wrote: »

Is obesity a big factor here?

It is a factor n the older age groups yes, but I was talking more about below 60s.

Edit. It is not a factor in the research , but I am sure would play it's part generally

bodhrandude

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

Will I be allowed to travel Dublin to Galway on the 20th of July? The hotel has accepted my refundable booking.

I thought that the phases were being moved 2 weeks forward to the 29th June, which is apparently when all travel restrictions will be lifted.

I think the thing that we can all finally agree on is that there can't be another lockdown unless it is absolutely essential for the survival of the majority.

3 months of lockdown has been crippling. Record numbers of unemployed. Large businesses that were struggling now gone bust. Huge increases in mental health issues. Huge increases in domestic abuse. No cancer screening for months. Kids not receiving a proper education for half a year and the future still not determined. Social distancing and all that comes with it is making it hard for business to return to normal. Many people are not bothered shopping if you have to queue for a long time and can't even try clothes on etc. This will get worse if it continues into winter and the weather is terrible. Not to mention the fear that people have from the media.

The real fallout from THIS lockdown is only beginning as well. Many more businesses will collapse and measures will be needed to help pay the bill.

If a 2nd wave does occur, alternative approaches will be necessary. My own opinion is that we should be looking at ways that we can shield the demographic most likely to die / need ICU.

hamburgham

firemansam4 wrote: »

Just on this....

I can only speak for myself but I have been in many shops where I have seen customers paying for items at the side of these protection screens on many occasions.

Yep. And living on my own, the short little chats with shop staff are sometimes my only face to face conversations in a day.Difficult now.

I also walk on rather than queue outside.

Assetbacked

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think the thing that we can all finally agree on is that there can't be another lockdown unless it is absolutely essential for the survival of the majority.

3 months of lockdown has been crippling. Record numbers of unemployed. Large businesses that were struggling now gone bust. Huge increases in mental health issues. Huge increases in domestic abuse. No cancer screening for months. Kids not receiving a proper education for half a year and the future still not determined. Social distancing and all that comes with it is making it hard for business to return to normal. Many people are not bothered shopping if you have to queue for a long time and can't even try clothes on etc. This will get worse if it continues into winter and the weather is terrible. Not to mention the fear that people have from the media.

The real fallout from THIS lockdown is only beginning as well. Many more businesses will collapse and measures will be needed to help pay the bill.

If a 2nd wave does occur, alternative approaches will be necessary. My own opinion is that we should be looking at ways that we can shield the demographic most likely to die / need ICU.

I think that is the only realistic way to proceed; implement measures such as coccooning the vulnerable and bringing in social distancing to curb the spread. But it is impossible to see how the current social distancing measures will work once restrictions are eased fully.

For example, as you have said, bricks and mortar businesses won't be able to cover their full expenses if only a limited number of people can enter the shop and many people won't bother queuing and instead just buy online. Additionally, public transport won't work at all if offices and schools are going back in September.

The only way to continue with social distancing is for the government to cover all costs of businesses for the time that social distancing is being implemented. That means, for me, social distancing is only temporary and by that I mean weeks as opposed to months.

Goldengirl

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think the thing that we can all finally agree on is that there can't be another lockdown unless it is absolutely essential for the survival of the majority.

3 months of lockdown has been crippling. Record numbers of unemployed. Large businesses that were struggling now gone bust. Huge increases in mental health issues. Huge increases in domestic abuse. No cancer screening for months. Kids not receiving a proper education for half a year and the future still not determined. Social distancing and all that comes with it is making it hard for business to return to normal. Many people are not bothered shopping if you have to queue for a long time and can't even try clothes on etc. This will get worse if it continues into winter and the weather is terrible. Not to mention the fear that people have from the media.

The real fallout from THIS lockdown is only beginning as well. Many more businesses will collapse and measures will be needed to help pay the bill.

If a 2nd wave does occur, alternative approaches will be necessary. My own opinion is that we should be looking at ways that we can shield the demographic most likely to die / need ICU.

How do you define the majority?
And..
Do you think the " majority" of Irish people would agree with your definition?

I agree with a lot of your post , except for "THIS lockdown" .
THIS Pandemic is what has brought us all to a probable recession, not the lockdown.
OECD has predicted GLOBAL dip of 6% in GDP this year with a return to growth of 5.3% in 2021, if a second wave does not happen with resultant restrictions. ( Irish Times, yesterday)
I would think restrictions would now be more targeted from now on, to stop clusters and prevent community transmission, but it will be entirely dependant on people adhering to the restrictions that are imposed to prevent another rise in cases.
Cocooning the vulnerable does not prevent a rise in community transmission, which if allowed unchecked, as in parts of the world who have still rising cases, it leads to illness in younger less vulnerable and ultimately also in those cocooned, who are reliant on help from outside.

TaurenDruid

No new covid-related deaths today - and on a Monday, too, which is often quite high as weekend figures get added in.

Sheepdish1

Goldengirl wrote: »

How do you define the majority?
And..
Do you think the " majority" of Irish people would agree with your definition?

I agree with a lot of your post , except for "THIS lockdown" .
THIS Pandemic is what has brought us all to a probable recession, not the lockdown.
OECD has predicted GLOBAL dip of 6% in GDP this year with a return to growth of 5.3% in 2021, if a second wave does not happen with resultant restrictions. ( Irish Times, yesterday)
I would think restrictions would now be more targeted from now on, to stop clusters and prevent community transmission, but it will be entirely dependant on people adhering to the restrictions that are imposed to prevent another rise in cases.
Cocooning the vulnerable does not prevent a rise in community transmission, which if allowed unchecked, as in parts of the world who have still rising cases, it leads to illness in younger less vulnerable and ultimately also in those cocooned, who are reliant on help from outside.

Yes, it’s far more complex than vulnerable and elderly cocooning. If it’s big in community and healthcare workers it spreads quite quickly. Very strange times, I don’t think things will be normal any time soon. Maybe briefly over the summer but the winter months seem like they could be challenging.

Ginger n Lemon

18 new cases today. no deaths.

I know I havent said this in a long time but - open up the damn country.

If there is a single business still closed by "NPHET and govts advice" come 29th of June, would just be a disaster and a national tragedy.

hmmm

Assetbacked wrote: »

The only way to continue with social distancing is for the government to cover all costs of businesses for the time that social distancing is being implemented. That means, for me, social distancing is only temporary and by that I mean weeks as opposed to months.

The problem I have with this argument is that if our hospitals get over-run, restrictions will be reimposed. There's no way they will not. Even if you argue that a government will sit on its hands as people die on the floors of hospitals, the public will demand it and more importantly, will stop going outside their front door. Social distancing, along with track and trace, are our key weapons to prevent a resurgence of the virus until we have a vaccine or a treatment.

So....we have to find a way to keep viable businesses alive. Just dropping social distancing is never going to be an option - until we have that vaccine or a really good treatment.

On the same track, simply saying "drop the requirement to 1 metre will make businesses more viable" is not the right way to frame that particular question. It might, but if it causes cases to spike then we're back to square one - lots of empty tables 1 metre apart. We need the science to say this is safe, or we need to understand how it will impact on the rate of spread.

Until we get a handle on the disease and spread, and until the public feels safe, there is no way to get businesses restarted. Social distancing is a pain in the behind, and is very bad for a lot of businesses, but the alternative of a potential large-scale second wave is far far worse.

GocRh

hamburgham wrote: »

Yep. And living on my own, the short little chats with shop staff are sometimes my only face to face conversations in a day.Difficult now.

I also walk on rather than queue outside.

Same here, live on my own and don't know any of my neighbours.

Only face to face conversations have been with shop staff for many weeks now.

Most of my friends have small children and live out in the burbs and don't want to socialise at the moment, which I can understand.

Hang in there, we will all get through this!

Sofa King

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

18 new cases today. no deaths.

I know I havent said this in a long time but - open up the damn country.

If there is a single business still closed by "NPHET and govts advice" come 29th of June, would just be a disaster and a national tragedy.

The private transport industry is currently on its knees due to them not reducing the 2 metre distancing.

Ginger n Lemon

hmmm wrote: »

The problem I have with this argument is that if our hospitals get over-run, restrictions will be reimposed. Even if you argue that a government will sit on its hands as people die on the floors of hospitals, the public will demand it and more importantly, will stop going outside their front door.

So....we have to find a way to keep viable businesses alive. Just dropping social distancing is never going to be an option - until we have a vaccine or a really good treatment.

On the same track, simply saying "drop the requirement to 1 metre will make businesses more viable". It might, but if it causes cases to spike then we're back to square one - lots of empty tables 1 metre apart.

Until we get a handle on the disease and spread, and until the public feels safe, there is no way to get businesses restarted. Social distancing is a pain in the behind, and is very bad for a lot of businesses, but the alternative of a potential large-scale second wave is far far worse.

All of that in bold is absolute rubbish.

The ifs and the buts :rolleyes:

road_high

Very telling the amount of comments here that loved the lockdown- all warm apple pie stuff. Which is fair enough. But who pays for it? The public delusion is sort of breathtaking. I guess it’s probably not you surprising as FG have not been honest.

https://www.facebook.com/45441411157/posts/10157533704381158/

Ginger n Lemon

Sofa King wrote: »

The private transport industry is currently on its knees due to them not reducing the 2 metre distancing.

I saw that. Goahead bus service, Wexford bus and CIE are all looking for govts help. Sad