Cycling on paths and other cycling issues (updated title)

magicbastarder

SeanW wrote: »

People use cars to improve their quality of life, and it's clear that the benefits of personal mobility far outweigh the societal costs of same

the societal costs are always externalised though. someone hopping in a car does not cause *them* any extra of what we'd term societal damage, it's the person outside the car putting up with the extra noise, pollution, danger and displacement.

cars are probably one of the best and one the worst inventions humanity has come up with.
bikes are simply one of the best.

look at it this way - if someone chooses to forgo a car journey and takes hte bike instead, everyone is better off. choosing to take the car where a bike will suffice means everyone is worse off.

SeanW

Thargor wrote: »

Yeah another fine example of the usual impenetrable bias there, the car being used to move someone from place to place in literally the most inefficient way imaginable is improving someones quality of life but the bike doing the exact same thing just in an infinitely more efficient manner isnt?

Great, so if I'm travelling 60+ miles, late at night, carrying lots of stuff, I should just hope on a bike? Many journeys are simply best suited to cars, if you have one available.

07Lapierre wrote: »

While I agree that cars are driven by people, I don't agree that cars improve your quality of life! IMO a lot of people own and drive cars because they have no alternative!

Just look at the number of people who, despite our crap cycle lanes, despite the rain, despite aggressive close passes on a daily basis continue to commute by bike every day! I would argue that a lot of these people are cycling because it improves their quality of life.

A very large number of people in Ireland alone spend thousands, and in some cases, tens of thousands (if the car is new or luxury) every year to keep a car and thus be able to travel from anywhere to anywhere else at any time. It's hard to believe that they'd be doing this if it didn't make their lives significantly better. And most of us are reasonably responsible, as the data shows.

SeanW

magicbastarder wrote: »

the societal costs are always externalised though. someone hopping in a car does not cause *them* any extra of what we'd term societal damage, it's the person outside the car putting up with the extra noise, pollution, danger and displacement.

cars are probably one of the best and one the worst inventions humanity has come up with.
bikes are simply one of the best.

look at it this way - if someone chooses to forgo a car journey and takes hte bike instead, everyone is better off. choosing to take the car where a bike will suffice means everyone is worse off.

Motorists are part of society, they are not external to society. If millions of people have a massively better quality of life because they have access to a car, those are benefits to society. That said, I also think we should have alternatives especially for commuting, like metros, luas and heavy rail in our main cities, but all the dumping on motorists seems overwrought.

07Lapierre

SeanW wrote: »

Great, so if I'm travelling 60+ miles, late at night, carrying lots of stuff, I should just hope on a bike? Many journeys are simply best suited to cars, if you have one available.

A very large number of people in Ireland alone spend thousands, and in some cases, tens of thousands (if the car is new or luxury) every year to keep a car and thus be able to travel from anywhere to anywhere else at any time. It's hard to believe that they'd be doing this if it didn't make their lives significantly better. And most of us are reasonably responsible, as the data shows.

Good man! I work in the Motor trade! PLEASE keep spending thousands on cars!

If your travelling 60+ miles (that's 100klm... we changed to the metric system years ago!) late at night, carrying lots of stuff..you could take a taxi, or if one was available take the train? 100k is a long way and for most people in Ireland, they have no other option but to drive!

Also why are you travelling so far so late at night? Maybe you'd have a better quality of life if you didn't have to transport lots of stuff 100k late at night?

meeeeh

magicbastarder wrote: »

the societal costs are always externalised though. someone hopping in a car does not cause *them* any extra of what we'd term societal damage, it's the person outside the car putting up with the extra noise, pollution, danger and displacement.

cars are probably one of the best and one the worst inventions humanity has come up with.
bikes are simply one of the best.

look at it this way - if someone chooses to forgo a car journey and takes hte bike instead, everyone is better off. choosing to take the car where a bike will suffice means everyone is worse off.

That's like saying steak is one of the best and worst foods while cabbage is simply one of the best. Guess which one will be considered a treat in majority of cases.

07Lapierre

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Unless they're bringing an emergency to hospital

They can justifiably run red lights so!

Spook_ie

07Lapierre wrote: »

Who cares? The Gardai don't seem to care. They seem to allocate their resources to catching motorists, not cyclists.

Now as I asked, how big will these bicycle no plates have to be? If Car no plates can't be identified on CCTV, what hope is their of identifying a bicycle no plate? If Gardai can't be bothered to enforce the existing ROTR for cyclists, what's the chances they will enforce mandatory no plates for bicycles?

I care as to whether people are using news paper tag lines to castigate motorists as per the norm, and ask yet again, is it not more likely that the 24x motorists being caught is because they are easier to identify rather than 24x more likely to commit the offence?

07Lapierre

Spook_ie wrote: »

I care as to whether people are using news paper tag lines to castigate motorists as per the norm, and ask yet again, is it not more likely that the 24x motorists being caught is because they are easier to identify rather than 24x more likely to commit the offence?

These bike no plates...what size do you think they would need to be to make them visible? If It helps, I have my name printed on my bike! I'm a member of a cycling club and the club web address is printed on my cycling gear. I'm very identifiable and I'm not alone. A lot of cyclists are very identifiable and can be easily stopped by any Garda that witnesses them committing an offence.

I reckon a number plate on a bicycle would have to be the same size as the plates you see on motorbikes? What do you think?

Thargor

SeanW wrote: »

Great, so if I'm travelling 60+ miles, late at night, carrying lots of stuff, I should just hope on a bike? Many journeys are simply best suited to cars, if you have one available.

And some journeys and loads are better suited to an oil tanker or an Airbus A380, great, what does that have to do with your opinion that bikes are worse than cars when it comes to footpath hogging or red light jumping? How is that not bias as I said?

SeanW

Thargor wrote: »

And some journeys and loads are better suited to an oil tanker or an Airbus A380, great, what does that have to do with your opinion that bikes are worse than cars when it comes to footpath hogging or red light jumping? How is that not bias as I said?

Do I hear the sounds of goalposts being moved? I was responding to your post in which you said:

Thargor wrote: »

Yeah another fine example of the usual impenetrable bias there, the car being used to move someone from place to place in literally the most inefficient way imaginable is improving someones quality of life but the bike doing the exact same thing just in an infinitely more efficient manner isnt?

Thargor

SeanW wrote: »

Do I hear the sounds of goalposts being moved? I was responding to your post in which you said:

Goalposts being moved? You said:

Oh, I've noticed motorists doing bad things, but nothing to warrant the extreme levels of opprobrium. As to the "strange subset of boards.ie users" I suspect that, like myself, many are routine pedestrians and motorists, who when they're out walking have to negotiate with red light jumping, footpath hogging cyclists, and then they come home to read from those same cyclists about how motorists are horrible and killing everybody and need to be drowned with inane regulations. Both, I find, are a matter of general routine.

And I replied:

Thargor wrote: »

This is the bias we're trying to explain to you, who do you think pedestrians particularly the likes of a wheelchair user or someone with a pram for example would choose to eliminate from "footpath hogging"? Cars or bikes? Who breaks more red lights, car or bicycles? Can you actually not see what you're saying?

Where do you even see these "Footpath hogging cyclists" by the way? I commute 20km a day Bray into Dublin and I cycle around the city regularly for the last 9 years, I literally never see it, not occasionally, I mean never, apart from the odd child doing it. Can you give us a typical location and interaction with one of them? Cars on the other hand half on the footpath half on the road or and/or on double yellows and the associated effects on traffic are a constant irritation on literally every street.

And you never replied, feel free to explain that as Im genuinely curious.

SeanW

Thargor wrote: »

Goalposts being moved? You said:

I replied to one of your points.

And I don't know how you never see cyclists on the footpath, you mustn't be looking very hard.

Thargor

And ignored all the bits pointing out how biased and illogical you are, oh well.

And I don't know how you never see cyclists on the footpath, you mustn't be looking very hard.

Oh Im looking alright, you pay attention when you cycle commute in Dublin. Do you want to play a game? You find an example of these footpath hogging cyclists on Google Streetview that you think are so common and Ill post 5 similar links to cars doing the same, see who runs out of examples first, it should be easy seeing as you're being terrorized by them every time you're out walking...

magicbastarder

SeanW wrote: »

Motorists are part of society, they are not external to society.

true, but a meaningless statement. if someone does harm to society it does not mean they suffer the harm equally, simply by them being 'part of society'.

SeanW

magicbastarder wrote: »

true, but a meaningless statement. if someone does harm to society it does not mean they suffer the harm equally, simply by them being 'part of society'.

My point was that motoring benefits large numbers of people. If millions of people have a vastly higher quality of life because of some factor, at some point it must be said that those are societal benefits.

Thargor wrote: »

Oh Im looking alright, you pay attention when you cycle commute in Dublin. Do you want to play a game? You find an example of these footpath hogging cyclists on Google Streetview that you think are so common and Ill post 5 similar links to cars doing the same, see who runs out of examples first, it should be easy seeing as you're being terrorized by them every time you're out walking...

Meh, you "don't see" cyclists on the footpath, so I doubt there's much point.

LeinsterDub

TaurenDruid wrote: »

Well, I know that if I break a red light in my car, there's an excellent chance it'll be on camera and my reg plate will be visible.

How are we on cyclists having reg plates?

Yeah, not so much. So how do they get caught, exactly?

And by excellent you mean pathetically low chance?

Why not call for joggers to have reg plates! Same basic risk

LeinsterDub

07Lapierre wrote: »

Who cares? The Gardai don't seem to care. They seem to allocate their resources to catching motorists, not cyclists.

It's almost like they have limited resources and have decided to apply their resources to where it will have the most impact

Spook_ie

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It's almost like they have limited resources and have decided to apply their resources to where it will have the most impact it's easiest to issue a ticket

FYP

Thargor

SeanW wrote: »

Meh, you "don't see" cyclists on the footpath, so I doubt there's much point.

Cant find any? Im shocked. Im sure AndrewJRenko will be along shortly with some 4 wheeled examples for you though :pac:

LeinsterDub

Spook_ie wrote: »

FYP

If that was their motivation we'd have ANPR

meeeeh

Actually there were pages of whinging that drivers breaking thd law are not prosecuted for speeding, illegal parking or any other offences. It's good to see that garda performance improved immeasurably and that they are prioritising those breaking the rules.

As for cars damaging the society, it's the kind of romantic hippie nonsense that we should all go back to hugging trees, dying of malnutrition or curable disease and shagging neighbours (possibly related) and an odd sheep because nothing else is easily accessible. Cars and other forms of transport improved our mobility and independence. If some want to shrink their world to the size that's easily cycled or walked they are welcome to do that but don't be shocked if majority don't follow.

magicbastarder

meeeeh wrote: »

As for cars damaging the society, it's the kind of romantic hippie nonsense that we should all go back to hugging trees, dying of malnutrition or curable disease and shagging neighbours

yes, because that's exactly what is being proposed.
the netherlands is an example which has slid back to the middle ages with their promotion of cycling.

meeeeh

magicbastarder wrote: »

yes, because that's exactly what is being proposed.
the netherlands is an example which has slid back to the middle ages with their promotion of cycling.

Nothing was proposed it was just whinging about cars damaging society. What proposals did you see anywhere? This thread is one long whinge fest and even when I suggested how illegal parking could be tackled the answer was "oh you can't do that because Irish are set in their ways".

magicbastarder

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It's almost like they have limited resources and have decided to apply their resources to where it will have the most impact

the two gardai i've talked to about enforcing cycling laws have both expressed opinions along the lines of 'do we not have more important stuff to worry about?'
to be fair, one is a cyclist himself.

though i reckon that may be a double edged sword; if they don't care about offences *by* cyclists, that might feed into their antipathy towards offences against cyclists.

magicbastarder

meeeeh wrote: »

when I suggested how illegal parking could be tackled the answer was "oh you can't do that because Irish are set in their ways".

*please* stop mischaracterising the points being made here. the answer was not 'you can't do that', the answer was that it's going to be difficult.

meeeeh

magicbastarder wrote: »

*please* stop mischaracterising the points being made here. the answer was not 'you can't do that', the answer was that it's going to be difficult.

Ah sure, why try it then...

Duckjob

meeeeh wrote: »

As for cars damaging the society, it's the kind of romantic hippie nonsense that we should all go back to hugging trees, dying of malnutrition or curable disease and shagging neighbours (possibly related) and an odd sheep because nothing else is easily accessible. Cars and other forms of transport improved our mobility and independence. If some want to shrink their world to the size that's easily cycled or walked they are welcome to do that but don't be shocked if majority don't follow.

There's strawmanning, there's master-level strawmanning, and then there's that.

Wow.

meeeeh

Duckjob wrote: »

There's strawmanning, there's master-level strawmanning, and then there's that.

Wow.

Oh right so the arguments that cars are bad for society were not made.

Anyway I think some here should watch car adds to see what it works. They show cars driving on open empty roads, happy families going and kids behaving at the back of the car. We all know this is far from reality of every day driving for majority of people. Cycling is sold to people in this thread by telling them how they are killers driving three tonne killing machines and suffocating everyone around them. And then you wonder why it doesn't work.

Duckjob

meeeeh wrote: »

Oh right so the arguments that cars are bad for society were not made.

A lot of people (and I would include myself in this grouping) would argue that in Ireland we've developed our society so as to be far too over-reliant on cars for journeys that could be made in other ways.

There's many, many shades of grey between our current situation and the type of society you described.

I would argue that countries like NL and the Nordic countries are at a good place on the scale to aim for. Their populations still drive cars when they need to, but the balance of convenience has been tipped in favour of active travel, so a lot of the time, people gladly choose to make a journey by other means than by car.

I'm a car owner, and I don't deny that there's many times when it's much, much more comfortable and convenient and safe to use it. With proper investment in active travel and public transport infrastructure however, the percentage of my travel when I feel I have no option but to use the car could be a lot lower.

magicbastarder

meeeeh wrote: »

Oh right so the arguments that cars are bad for society were not made.

it was still an outrageous strawman argument, but i can no longer tell if you post them in jest or not. and that's not my fault i can no longer tell.