Cycling on paths and other cycling issues (updated title)

micar

TaurenDruid wrote: »

Oh, okay, fair enough. Yes, a cyclist can break a pedestrian red light while cycling the wrong way down a one-way street, and - in fairness - the OP never mentioned one-way streets, then immediately cycle onto a footpath and continue on their way. But they can't actually break a red light while on a footpath.

You're right! How clever. You win! One pedant point to you!

No worries ........ I was just correcting something that actually wasn't correct.

Thargor

SeanW wrote: »

I chose my words carefully. In particular, I chose words like "inconsiderate" in preference to "bad" or "dangerous" because the word reflects the worst possible experiences I've had (with motorists) as a daily pedestrian in Ireland's major cities. And in urban centres, traffic isn't going anywhere near 80kph.

The worst possible experience? You mean if nothing has ever happened to you then it must not happen? The statistics don't really back up your anecdotal evidence there. Urban centres are plenty dangerous when a road user decides to be inconsiderate, it's just theres a slight difference between what happens when they're inconsiderate on a 15kg bike or in a 2000kg car as I said, don't know why you would take issue with that.

Btw if you're a daily pedestrian in Ireland's cities then chances are the air you're breathing from the clogged roads (from the cyclists not using the cycle lanes) is going to have a massive impact on your life like thousands of other people every year so hold off on the worst possible experience judgement just yet.

Duckjob

SeanW wrote: »

I chose my words carefully. In particular, I chose words like "inconsiderate" in preference to "bad" or "dangerous" because the word reflects the worst possible experiences I've had (with motorists) as a daily pedestrian in Ireland's major cities. And in urban centres, traffic isn't going anywhere near 80kph.

You've obviously never been to the north quays of Dublin city in late evening time.

Edit: or the south quays for that matter, but especially the north ones.

dashcamdanny

The weight of a cycle does not make the user above the law.


Not that it matters.

If you hit some dope who ran a red, car or cycle.. Its going to be their fault and the hospital or funeral expenses goes to the offender..

Let them at it. Dont expect any mercy from oncoming traffic. ...

Tea drinker

dashcamdanny wrote: »

The weight of a cycle does not make the user above the law.


Not that it matters.

If you hit some dope who ran a red, car or cycle.. Its going to be their fault and the hospital or funeral expenses goes to the offender..

Let them at it. Dont expect any mercy from oncoming traffic. ...

true, but OTOH no one wants (I realise you aren't saying opposite of this) to kill a cyclist, especially a kid. If the adults are instilling bad hapbits in children you really can't hold kid to account. Have had a fair few children cycle in front of me over the years ....would be hard to shrug that one off if it happened.
Some times we get away with things, not always.

07Lapierre

Nice to see cycle lanes being used for a change!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84d2qlFwC40&feature=youtu.be

Thargor

dashcamdanny wrote: »

If you hit some dope who ran a red, car or cycle.. Its going to be their fault and the hospital or funeral expenses goes to the offender..

Let them at it. Dont expect any mercy from oncoming traffic. ...

magicbastarder

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Dont expect any mercy from oncoming traffic. ...

maybe we should rethink this 'traffic' lark so.

LeinsterDub

SeanW wrote: »

And yet cyclists do both (red light jumping, and also riding on the footpath) with regularity and abandon. And yes, sometimes motorists are also inconsiderate.

Damn cyclists 24 times worse than motorist .
https://twitter.com/timoconnorbl/status/1280857001678065664

And now to just recheck my notes. :eek::eek::eek:

micar

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Damn cyclists 24 times worse than motorist .
https://twitter.com/timoconnorbl/status/1280857001678065664

And now to just recheck my notes. :eek::eek::eek:

But, but, but ........ what about the cyclists who ...... blah blah blah

07Lapierre

Bloody cyclists on pavements! Gardai need to get their priorities right!

“Over 35,000 drivers currently driving on their fourth or subsequent learner permit”

TaurenDruid

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Damn cyclists 24 times worse than motorist .
https://twitter.com/timoconnorbl/status/1280857001678065664

And now to just recheck my notes. :eek::eek::eek:

Well, I know that if I break a red light in my car, there's an excellent chance it'll be on camera and my reg plate will be visible.

How are we on cyclists having reg plates?

Yeah, not so much. So how do they get caught, exactly?

SeanW

Thargor wrote: »

The worst possible experience? You mean if nothing has ever happened to you then it must not happen? The statistics don't really back up your anecdotal evidence there. Urban centres are plenty dangerous when a road user decides to be inconsiderate, it's just theres a slight difference between what happens when they're inconsiderate on a 15kg bike or in a 2000kg car as I said, don't know why you would take issue with that.

Actually, they do. In 2019, the last full year for which there is data, and before the Covid-19 pandemic messed up everyone's life, there were 27 pedestrian fatalities on Irish streets and roads.
https://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Road-Safety/RSA-Statistics/Deaths-injuries-on-Irish-roads/

With a population of about 5 million, that's a fatality likelihood of 0.00054%. But it gets better. According to RSA research - and they have no interest in covering for bad drivers - in one study of pedestrian fatalities, they found sole pedestrian culpability in 70% of cases for which they had data.
https://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Fatal%20Collision%20Stats/Analysis_of_road_user_groups/Pedestrian%20fatalities%20on%20Irish%20Roads%202008%20to%202015.pdf

So if you have an ounce of cop-on, your chances of dying on Irish roads as a pedestrian go down dramatically from 0.00054%. My experience as a daily pedestrian in Ireland's main cities bears out the data. Irish drivers are not terrible or dangerous as a general rule. The opprobrium is not warranted.

The only road users that have seriously threatened me were cyclists. Granted, extreme cases were rare, but the closest I've ever come to harm on Irish streets were from cyclists who think/know that red lights don't apply to them and that pedestrians are just in the way.

Btw if you're a daily pedestrian in Ireland's cities then chances are the air you're breathing from the clogged roads (from the cyclists not using the cycle lanes) is going to have a massive impact on your life like thousands of other people every year so hold off on the worst possible experience judgement just yet.

Irish air quality is generally good, so I think my judgement stands.
http://waqi.info/#/c/53.377/-7.055/7.7z

07Lapierre

TaurenDruid wrote: »

Well, I know that if I break a red light in my car, there's an excellent chance it'll be on camera and my reg plate will be visible.

Rubbish! Your No. plate may be Visible, but unless someone actually reports you, or a Garda witnesses you running the red light, you will not be caught!

Run a red light at night, and your no. Plates won't be visible,
Run a red light at night in the rain, and your covered!

As for no. Plates on bikes...how big are these plates going to be if they are to be visible/identifiable on CCTV? Answer is too big!

Thargor

SeanW wrote: »

Actually, they do. In 2019, the last full year for which there is data, and before the Covid-19 pandemic messed up everyone's life, there were 27 pedestrian fatalities on Irish streets and roads.
https://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Road-Safety/RSA-Statistics/Deaths-injuries-on-Irish-roads/

With a population of about 5 million, that's a fatality likelihood of 0.00054%. But it gets better. According to RSA research - and they have no interest in covering for bad drivers - in one study of pedestrian fatalities, they found sole pedestrian culpability in 70% of cases for which they had data.
https://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Fatal%20Collision%20Stats/Analysis_of_road_user_groups/Pedestrian%20fatalities%20on%20Irish%20Roads%202008%20to%202015.pdf

So if you have an ounce of cop-on, your chances of dying on Irish roads as a pedestrian go down dramatically from 0.00054%. My experience as a daily pedestrian in Ireland's main cities bears out the data. Irish drivers are not terrible or dangerous as a general rule. The opprobrium is not warranted.

The only road users that have seriously threatened me were cyclists. Granted, extreme cases were rare, but the closest I've ever come to harm on Irish streets were from cyclists who think/know that red lights don't apply to them and that pedestrians are just in the way.
Irish air quality is generally good, so I think my judgement stands.
http://waqi.info/#/c/53.377/-7.055/7.7z

Yes as I said, your anecdotal evidence about cyclists being the bigger threat is wrong and not borne out by the statistics, thanks for providing them, no need to provide the cycling related ones for obvious reasons what with them being basically zero across the board. I seriously doubt its borne out in your experience either though, your obvious biases just mean you tune out anything cars do while noticing every cyclist that comes near you the way a strange subset of boards.ie users tend to do.

Also just because Irelands statistics are "good" in your opinion whether air quality or accidents doesnt mean cars arent doing orders of magnitudes more harm than bikes so its pointless arguing otherwise.

07Lapierre wrote: »

Rubbish! Your No. plate may bee Visible, but it unless someone actually reports you, or a Garda witnesses you running the red light, you will not be caught!

Run a red light at night, and your no. Plates won't be visible,
Run a red light at night in the rain, and your covered!

As for no. Plates on bikes...how big are these plates going to be if they are to be visible/identifiable on CCTV? Answer is too big!

Do we even have red light cameras? I thought the trial came to an end and they never rolled it out:

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/cameras-benburb-blackhall-luas-red-lights/

Interesting statistic in that article relevant to this thread btw...

Spook_ie

07Lapierre wrote: »

Rubbish! Your No. plate may bee Visible, but it unless someone actually reports you, or a Garda witnesses you running the red light, you will not be caught!

Run a red light at night, and your no. Plates won't be visible,
Run a red light at night in the rain, and your covered!

As for no. Plates on bikes...how big are these plates going to be if they are to be visible/identifiable on CCTV? Answer is too big!

Likewise for the 98% of cyclists in the TCD study who jumped red lights but as regards motors, do they actually need to stop you in a registered vehicle to issue an FCPN ( they didn't, for the cameras on the LUAS junctions ) and does the fact that motorists are easily identifiable for sending on a FCPN mean that they are 24x as likely to get charged rather than 24x as likely to commit the offence?

07Lapierre

Spook_ie wrote: »

Likewise for the 98% of cyclists in the TCD study who jumped red lights but as regards motors, do they actually need to stop you in a registered vehicle to issue an FCPN ( they didn't, for the cameras on the LUAS junctions ) and does the fact that motorists are easily identifiable for sending on a FCPN mean that they are 24x as likely to get charged rather than 24x as likely to commit the offence?

TCD students/staff don't have the power to arrest people. They can only observe. Only a Garda can issue a FCPN.

As for drivers being easily unidentifiable? Another myth! No. Plates identify the registered owner, not the driver. I work in the Motor trade...amazing the number of registered owners who have others driving their cars !

Spook_ie

07Lapierre wrote: »

TCD students/staff don't have the power to arrest people. They can only observe. Only a Garda can issue a FCPN.

As for drivers being easily unidentifiable? Another myth! No. Plates identify the registered owner, not the driver. I work in the Motor trade...amazing the number of registered owners who have others driving their cars !

If an FCPN is issued usualy someone eventually has their name put against it, the first stage though is still the issuing of the FCPN to the address given as the registered keeper via the registration number.

Now as I asked, as the vehicles are more easily identified via their registration numbers is the 24x the number of red light jumping charges more to do with the fact the vehicles are identifiable rather than 24x more likely to do it.

Over 98% of cyclists during the TCD study breaking red lights would seem to indicate that it's not as clear cut as some would like it to be.

07Lapierre

Spook_ie wrote: »

If an FCPN is issued usualy someone eventually has their name put against it, the first stage though is still the issuing of the FCPN to the address given as the registered keeper via the registration number.

Now as I asked, as the vehicles are more easily identified via their registration numbers is the 24x the number of red light jumping charges more to do with the fact the vehicles are identifiable rather than 24x more likely to do it.

Over 98% of cyclists during the TCD study breaking red lights would seem to indicate that it's not as clear cut as some would like it to be.

Who cares? The Gardai don't seem to care. They seem to allocate their resources to catching motorists, not cyclists.

Now as I asked, how big will these bicycle no plates have to be? If Car no plates can't be identified on CCTV, what hope is their of identifying a bicycle no plate? If Gardai can't be bothered to enforce the existing ROTR for cyclists, what's the chances they will enforce mandatory no plates for bicycles?

SeanW

Thargor wrote: »

Yes as I said, your anecdotal evidence about cyclists being the bigger threat is wrong and not borne out by the statistics, thanks for providing them, no need to provide the cycling related ones for obvious reasons what with them being basically zero across the board.

I never claimed that cyclists were involved in more fatal accidents with pedestrians than motorists. Rather, I claimed that the danger posed by Irish motorists to pedestrians is negligible, and the data bears out what has been my lived experience in this regard.

I seriously doubt its borne out in your experience either though, your obvious biases just mean you tune out anything cars do while noticing every cyclist that comes near you the way a strange subset of boards.ie users tend to do.

Oh, I've noticed motorists doing bad things, but nothing to warrant the extreme levels of opprobrium. As to the "strange subset of boards.ie users" I suspect that, like myself, many are routine pedestrians and motorists, who when they're out walking have to negotiate with red light jumping, footpath hogging cyclists, and then they come home to read from cyclists about how motorists are horrible and killing everybody and need to be drowned with inane regulations. Both, I find, are a matter of general routine.

Also just because Irelands statistics are "good" in your opinion whether air quality or accidents doesnt mean cars arent doing orders of magnitudes more harm than bikes so its pointless arguing otherwise.

"Good" is not my opinion. I'm using both absolute and relative data to show that Irish motorists are generally good. Road deaths overall are low, relative to both our population, and also to the international context. Obedience of traffic controls, while not perfect, is good. Our air quality, according to all international standards, is generally good. Pedestrians using our roads, even muppets who run out without looking and stammer around or fall asleep drunk in the middle of the road, are in little danger. (Not that I would recommend it though).

As to "cars" doing all this harm, I should remind you that "cars" don't drive themselves around the place for no reason, or their own reasons. Cars are not sentient beings that act on their own. People use cars to improve their quality of life, and it's clear that the benefits of personal mobility far outweigh the societal costs of same, as the car gives millions of people a massively higher quality of life.

07Lapierre

SeanW wrote: »

As to "cars" doing all this harm, I should remind you that "cars" don't drive themselves around the place for no reason, or their own reasons. Cars are not sentient beings that act on their own. People use cars to improve their quality of life, and it's clear that the benefits of personal mobility far outweigh the societal costs of same, as the car gives millions of people a massively higher quality of life.

While I agree that cars are driven by people, I don't agree that cars improve your quality of life! IMO a lot of people own and drive cars because they have no alternative!

Just look at the number of people who, despite our crap cycle lanes, despite the rain, despite aggressive close passes on a daily basis continue to commute by bike every day! I would argue that a lot of these people are cycling because it improves their quality of life.

Thargor

Oh, I've noticed motorists doing bad things, but nothing to warrant the extreme levels of opprobrium. As to the "strange subset of boards.ie users" I suspect that, like myself, many are routine pedestrians and motorists, who when they're out walking have to negotiate with red light jumping, footpath hogging cyclists, and then they come home to read from those same cyclists about how motorists are horrible and killing everybody and need to be drowned with inane regulations. Both, I find, are a matter of general routine.

This is the bias we're trying to explain to you, who do you think pedestrians particularly the likes of a wheelchair user or someone with a pram for example would choose to eliminate from "footpath hogging"? Cars or bikes? Who breaks more red lights, car or bicycles? Can you actually not see what you're saying?

Where do you even see these "Footpath hogging cyclists" by the way? I commute 20km a day Bray into Dublin and I cycle around the city regularly for the last 9 years, I literally never see it, not occasionally, I mean never, apart from the odd child doing it. Can you give us a typical location and interaction with one of them? Cars on the other hand half on the footpath half on the road or and/or on double yellows and the associated effects on traffic are a constant irritation on literally every street.

Thargor

07Lapierre wrote: »

While I agree that cars are driven by people, I don't agree that cars improve your quality of life! IMO a lot of people own and drive cars because they have no alternative!

Just look at the number of people who, despite our crap cycle lanes, despite the rain, despite aggressive close passes on a daily basis continue to commute by bike every day! I would argue that a lot of these people are cycling because it improves their quality of life.

Yeah another fine example of the usual impenetrable bias there, the car being used to move someone from place to place in literally the most inefficient way imaginable is improving someones quality of life but the bike doing the exact same thing just in an infinitely more efficient manner isnt?

magicbastarder

SeanW wrote: »

People use cars to improve their quality of life, and it's clear that the benefits of personal mobility far outweigh the societal costs of same

the societal costs are always externalised though. someone hopping in a car does not cause *them* any extra of what we'd term societal damage, it's the person outside the car putting up with the extra noise, pollution, danger and displacement.

cars are probably one of the best and one the worst inventions humanity has come up with.
bikes are simply one of the best.

look at it this way - if someone chooses to forgo a car journey and takes hte bike instead, everyone is better off. choosing to take the car where a bike will suffice means everyone is worse off.

SeanW

Thargor wrote: »

Yeah another fine example of the usual impenetrable bias there, the car being used to move someone from place to place in literally the most inefficient way imaginable is improving someones quality of life but the bike doing the exact same thing just in an infinitely more efficient manner isnt?

Great, so if I'm travelling 60+ miles, late at night, carrying lots of stuff, I should just hope on a bike? Many journeys are simply best suited to cars, if you have one available.

07Lapierre wrote: »

While I agree that cars are driven by people, I don't agree that cars improve your quality of life! IMO a lot of people own and drive cars because they have no alternative!

Just look at the number of people who, despite our crap cycle lanes, despite the rain, despite aggressive close passes on a daily basis continue to commute by bike every day! I would argue that a lot of these people are cycling because it improves their quality of life.

A very large number of people in Ireland alone spend thousands, and in some cases, tens of thousands (if the car is new or luxury) every year to keep a car and thus be able to travel from anywhere to anywhere else at any time. It's hard to believe that they'd be doing this if it didn't make their lives significantly better. And most of us are reasonably responsible, as the data shows.

SeanW

magicbastarder wrote: »

the societal costs are always externalised though. someone hopping in a car does not cause *them* any extra of what we'd term societal damage, it's the person outside the car putting up with the extra noise, pollution, danger and displacement.

cars are probably one of the best and one the worst inventions humanity has come up with.
bikes are simply one of the best.

look at it this way - if someone chooses to forgo a car journey and takes hte bike instead, everyone is better off. choosing to take the car where a bike will suffice means everyone is worse off.

Motorists are part of society, they are not external to society. If millions of people have a massively better quality of life because they have access to a car, those are benefits to society. That said, I also think we should have alternatives especially for commuting, like metros, luas and heavy rail in our main cities, but all the dumping on motorists seems overwrought.

07Lapierre

SeanW wrote: »

Great, so if I'm travelling 60+ miles, late at night, carrying lots of stuff, I should just hope on a bike? Many journeys are simply best suited to cars, if you have one available.

A very large number of people in Ireland alone spend thousands, and in some cases, tens of thousands (if the car is new or luxury) every year to keep a car and thus be able to travel from anywhere to anywhere else at any time. It's hard to believe that they'd be doing this if it didn't make their lives significantly better. And most of us are reasonably responsible, as the data shows.

Good man! I work in the Motor trade! PLEASE keep spending thousands on cars!

If your travelling 60+ miles (that's 100klm... we changed to the metric system years ago!) late at night, carrying lots of stuff..you could take a taxi, or if one was available take the train? 100k is a long way and for most people in Ireland, they have no other option but to drive!

Also why are you travelling so far so late at night? Maybe you'd have a better quality of life if you didn't have to transport lots of stuff 100k late at night?

meeeeh

magicbastarder wrote: »

the societal costs are always externalised though. someone hopping in a car does not cause *them* any extra of what we'd term societal damage, it's the person outside the car putting up with the extra noise, pollution, danger and displacement.

cars are probably one of the best and one the worst inventions humanity has come up with.
bikes are simply one of the best.

look at it this way - if someone chooses to forgo a car journey and takes hte bike instead, everyone is better off. choosing to take the car where a bike will suffice means everyone is worse off.

That's like saying steak is one of the best and worst foods while cabbage is simply one of the best. Guess which one will be considered a treat in majority of cases.

07Lapierre

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Unless they're bringing an emergency to hospital

They can justifiably run red lights so!

Spook_ie

07Lapierre wrote: »

Who cares? The Gardai don't seem to care. They seem to allocate their resources to catching motorists, not cyclists.

Now as I asked, how big will these bicycle no plates have to be? If Car no plates can't be identified on CCTV, what hope is their of identifying a bicycle no plate? If Gardai can't be bothered to enforce the existing ROTR for cyclists, what's the chances they will enforce mandatory no plates for bicycles?

I care as to whether people are using news paper tag lines to castigate motorists as per the norm, and ask yet again, is it not more likely that the 24x motorists being caught is because they are easier to identify rather than 24x more likely to commit the offence?