Circular Number: 0037/2020

Bobtheman

I never kept notes on participation in class. I had a messy group. Kids arrived late into class. Attendance irregular. Some had major behaviour issues. I rarely got homework even after placing them on detention etc. I just motored along as best I could.

r93kaey5p2izun

JDMC2 wrote: »

I’m in a very similar situation however I’m reluctant to base my final decision on the mocks....I suspect that a couple of the students may have had a peek at the already published papers. That’s only a feeling though.
I’m going to have to base it on their participation in class and my ‘professional judgement’

Many of your previous posts suggest you are not a teacher.

JDMC2

Thank you for your observation, I am a concerned teacher ��*��.......and a concerned parent of a LC student......however, I like to keep them as separate tasks

rainbowtrout

Our principal sent us a copy of the documentation the students got this morning about registering on the portal for calculated grades. They have until Thursday to do it.



In the FAQs at the end of the document it says

Will I be able to get details of the information provided about me to the Department (estimated percentage mark and class rank) before the issue of the results?

No. Data protection legislation allows for restrictions to be placed on access to certain types of personal data including the results of examinations. Requests for access to the school’s estimated percentage mark and rank order will not be active until the date of issue of the results. After the results are issued by the Department, you will be able to access this information.

Treppen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Our principal sent us a copy of the documentation the students got this morning about registering on the portal for calculated grades. They have until Thursday to do it.



In the FAQs at the end of the document it says

Sounds logical. Same as practical/oral grades really.

Treppen

Bobtheman wrote: »

I have four students whose grade avegerage is 51.2. I just then had to use the Mocks and if the mocks were the same the last grade I gave them,

Gave them what?

You really need to stay away from averages. There is zero formula possible to arrive at a grade through averages. Every single exam a student does is in transition and not or never will be a leaving cert grade.

The leaving cert grade you actually give is based on your judgement of what they 'could' achieve on their best day.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Treppen wrote: »

The leaving cert grade you actually give is based on your judgement of what they 'could' achieve on their best day.

Not on their best day, just what you'd expect them to get.

How would they have done on the day, all things being equal, that's all.

Treppen

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Not on their best day, just what you'd expect them to get.

How would they have done on the day, all things being equal, that's all.

I would say on their best day. Being able to show all that they know given a favourable paper with zero inconsistencies or nasty questions etc. This is what I mean by 'their' best day.

Everyone knows there were two polar opposite maths mocks, so how would you have expected them to get on in both? Is your expectation fair given the discrepancy?

You have to assume that the paper would have been perfectly fair.

r93kaey5p2izun

It specifically rules out using "what you may think they have a reasonable chance of getting on a good day". This is the most difficult line in the document imo. Very unfair I think.

r93kaey5p2izun

JDMC2 wrote: »

Thank you for your observation, I am a concerned teacher ��*��.......and a concerned parent of a LC student......however, I like to keep them as separate tasks

Ok. Not what you have said in the past though.

rainbowtrout

Legend Numerous Fig wrote: »

It specifically rules out using "what you may think they have a reasonable chance of getting on a good day". This is the most difficult line in the document imo. Very unfair I think.

I don't agree. Every year students get on better in some subjects and worse in others than they expected. Students don't all perform to their optimum level across all subjects.

'Their best day' refers to the one who has only learned one English poet and hope it comes up. If it comes up great, if it doesn't they'll be winging it.

There was a post here in the last couple of days that said class tests weren't a fair indicator of what a student's ability is. I disagree with that too. That is students performing on their best day. They know exactly the topic or chapter they are being examined on. There are no nasty questions, in that most teachers I imagine are not whacking out exam questions to their fifth years, they just want students to learn the material first and foremost. Students know what they have to learn for a chapter test so are given the opportunity to show what they are capable of on more simplistic tests on a smaller range of material.

If they have reached a ceiling on class tests in terms of their marks, it's far less likely that they will improve on that on their best day in the LC if the questions go their way on an unseen paper on the whole course.

r93kaey5p2izun

Their best day is not "on a good day" though - what they would have a "reasonable chance" of achieving is ruled out. We're not talking about the stars aligning for a 1 in a million dream paper. Just a good day.

Bobtheman

Treppen wrote: »

Gave them what?

You really need to stay away from averages. There is zero formula possible to arrive at a grade through averages. Every single exam a student does is in transition and not or never will be a leaving cert grade.

The leaving cert grade you actually give is based on your judgement of what they 'could' achieve on their best day.

Yes but that judgement is surely formed in the main by the grades they got ? It's going to be a huge part of the equation no matter what blather is written in the document because most teachers don't have a huge amount of notes etc for various reasons and don't have records of how accurate their previous guesses went.
Particularly were you had groups who rarely produced homework and were difficult to get them writing in class.
I'm talking English here.

r93kaey5p2izun

As for class tests, again I think school context must be a big factor. I would always have had lots of students, mostly boys, who would fail class tests all the time in 5th, scrape by in early 6th, but pull it all together by putting the head down in January. Laziness meant they didn't learn procedures properly until they felt it was time to bother, but they could problem solve and interpret better than most so once they practiced the basics they were flying. About 70% of boys I have had for HL Maths have gone up minimum 15% from mocks.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Legend Numerous Fig wrote: »

As for class tests, again I think school context must be a big factor. I would always have had lots of students, mostly boys, who would fail class tests all the time in 5th, scrape by in early 6th, but pull it all together by putting the head down in January. Laziness meant they didn't learn procedures properly until they felt it was time to bother, but they could problem solve and interpret better than most so once they practiced the basics they were flying. About 70% of boys I have had for HL Maths have gone up minimum 15% from mocks.

We all have those students, that's part of your professional judgement. It's mentioned in the guidelines. You know them so give what you think they'd have gotten.

r93kaey5p2izun

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

We all have those students, that's part of your professional judgement. It's mentioned in the guidelines. You know them so give what you think they'd have gotten.

Yes of course. I'm clear on that. These students are the majority in schools I taught in. Some posters here seem to think class tests will be representative , with minimal interpretation, for the majority - not so in my experience. Professional judgement will be the biggest factor. It's difficult though when comments from teachers seem to think evidence will be more substantial and indicative. If other teachers think that then any appeals process may prove particularly difficult for those teaching in these contexts.

Bobtheman

As far as I can see there isn't a formula at all-just a professional guess by people of varying abilities in the guessing game. Those who have corrected, those who haven't, those that keep good notes and those with hardly any notes. It's a blooming mess dressed up with a nice ribbon saying "Professional opinion" which can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people.
Best to anesthetize yourself with a few shots of "professional opinion" and guess away!

Treppen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I don't agree. Every year students get on better in some subjects and worse in others than they expected. Students don't all perform to their optimum level across all subjects.

'Their best day' refers to the one who has only learned one English poet and hope it comes up. If it comes up great, if it doesn't they'll be winging it.

There was a post here in the last couple of days that said class tests weren't a fair indicator of what a student's ability is. I disagree with that too. That is students performing on their best day. They know exactly the topic or chapter they are being examined on. There are no nasty questions, in that most teachers I imagine are not whacking out exam questions to their fifth years, they just want students to learn the material first and foremost. Students know what they have to learn for a chapter test so are given the opportunity to show what they are capable of on more simplistic tests on a smaller range of material.

If they have reached a ceiling on class tests in terms of their marks, it's far less likely that they will improve on that on their best day in the LC if the questions go their way on an unseen paper on the whole course.

I think we know those students who wing it with their minimal information (they've obviously been caught out so many times prior to March 13th.

I would say that in a fair exam these students would still perform badly even if their 'poet came up', i.e. they'd be caught out by their lackadaisical approach across the exam and based on what you've witnessed in class. To be fair to the predicted grade you must assume that you know how they will perform no matter what poet comes up.

I don't teach English so I'm making the assumption that all poets are equally as difficult and as easy to engage with :eek:

Bobtheman

Can I ask a question about FORM A-it says Programme LCE/LCVP and Then LCA. Which do you tick for the Ordinary LC? Leaving Cert??

km79

Bobtheman wrote: »

Can I ask a question about FORM A-it says Programme LCE/LCVP and Then LCA. Which do you tick for the Ordinary LC? Leaving Cert??

LCE - Leaving Cert Established.
To be fair that is going to throw a lot of teachers. I only know of it due to corrections with SEC.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Bobtheman wrote: »

Can I ask a question about FORM A-it says Programme LCE/LCVP and Then LCA. Which do you tick for the Ordinary LC? Leaving Cert??

LCE is Leaving Cert Exam- tick this one for higher/ordinary/foundation levels for regular LC

LCA for Leaving Cert Applied

jimmytwotimes 2013

Our ETB getting its claws into process already.

Can't use Zoom for meeting.

Can't have meeting til next week.

Blah blah blah

ethical

Not surprised! Some ETBs have carried on disgracefully during the past 12 weeks.I get the feeling they do not trust their teaching staff! Shame on them!

JD3112

Anyone know the story about LCAs who don't sit an exam?

They usually get credits awarded for completion of modules. I would have already awarded those credits to Year 6 students (when they were in Year 5).

Year 5 students would have been awarded them in May 2020.

Form A & B have estimated % mark and nothing about credits (which would either be 0, 1 or 2 for my subject)

Doesn't make sense to me that I would use Form A & B in this context???

r93kaey5p2izun

JD3112 wrote: »

Anyone know the story about LCAs who don't sit an exam?

They usually get credits awarded for completion of modules. I would have already awarded those credits to Year 6 students (when they were in Year 5).

Year 5 students would have been awarded them in May 2020.

Form A & B have estimated % mark and nothing about credits (which would either be 0, 1 or 2 for my subject)

Doesn't make sense to me that I would use Form A & B in this context???

The school is supposed to use the usual procedure for submitting module credits.

Bobtheman

What about kids who are on the roll but have never turned Up? In LC

r93kaey5p2izun

I think the fact teachers don't automatically get to see percentage of students' state exam results is now a big disadvantage. Coming up with a specific percentage is not an easy task with no concrete information on exactly what similar past students achieved. I don't know how common it is for students to seek out or share this information in other schools. But in 12 years in my last school, just 4 students viewed a Maths paper and none appealed.

ngunners

Bobtheman wrote: »

What about kids who are on the roll but have never turned Up? In LC

Would imagine you can't predict a grade for someone you've never seen?

r93kaey5p2izun

ngunners wrote: »

Would imagine you can't predict a grade for someone you've never seen?

If they are excluded from the ranking, but such students would usually turn up to sit the exam, then it could skew the standardisation. Always a few of these in any OL or FL class I've taught. 4-6 per year group. Could have an impact if not included in the rank. But I agree, could you really sign off on a grade for them?

jimmytwotimes 2013

Out of interest when people here meeting depts?