Circular Number: 0037/2020

Treppen

Ok just thought I'd start this trying to be discrete to discourage stumbling in experts.

Link to document follows soon

Treppen

Link attached

Treppen

So here it is in all it's glory

25. Legal indemnity
As teachers and school leaders will be implementing the calculated grades process in schools on behalf of the Minister, arrangements have been put in place to extend a State indemnity to them and to the boards of management of their schools. The indemnity could be invoked where someone is sued in their own capacity (i.e. named in civil proceedings as an individual teacher, principal or board of management/ETB).

This indemnity will be subject to conditions around notification and cooperation with the State in defending any legal cases should they arise and will only be capable of being invoked where a person has acted bona fide, i.e. has made every reasonable effort to carry out their role in accordance with the guidance provided in this Guide and the relevant circular of the Department of Education and Skills..

My underlined parts of the Indemnity appear to suggest that it 100% wont cover a teacher on appeal, the department will decide if teachers are 'worthy' of indemnity.

Whereas the Union gave prior assurances that :

The professional judgement of the teacher may not be appealed.

https://www.asti.ie/news/faqs-on-state-examinations-2020-and-continuity-of-teaching-l/

jimmytwotimes 2013

Far as I can see this is really straightforward

Fill in Form A for each student, Form B for ranking each class you have, one for each level if more than one level in your class

Have your evidence and use your professional judgement to arrive at grades. Don't bunch grades, don't gravitate to multiples of 5/10 or grade boundaries. Use a decimal to differentiate between students on the same grade.

Have your meeting, double check everything, data input especially

Send documents on to principal, job done

Treppen

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Far as I can see this is really straightforward

Fill in Form A for each student, Form B for ranking each class you have, one for each level if more than one level in your class

Have your evidence and use your professional judgement to arrive at grades. Don't bunch grades, don't gravitate to multiples of 5/10 or grade boundaries. Use a decimal to differentiate between students on the same grade.

Have your meeting, double check everything, data input especially

Send documents on to principal, job done

Ya as far as I can see there's nothing too different in the process than was originally suggested.

drake70

Hi OP, I'm not a teacher.

Is this circular available to the public?

If not, you might get in trouble for posting it here

TheDriver

circulars are public once published

Treppen

drake70 wrote: »

Hi OP, I'm not a teacher.

Is this circular available to the public?

If not, you might get in trouble for posting it here

Thanks I've currently gone on the run now.

drake70

Treppen wrote: »

Thanks I've currently gone on the run now.

:pac::pac::pac:

endacl

Treppen wrote: »

Thanks I've currently gone on the run now.

Gone on the run like a currant?

Random sample

https://www.asti.ie/news/astisecuresfullindemnity/

And we’re back in the game.

Treppen

All that pent up media hysteria and Union bashing will still need an outlet.

But Hooray ... First time the Union has the last word before the weekend. And it's positive too.

Treppen

Joe McHugh on Ivan Yeats on Newstalk now.
He sounds fair enough for an Education Minister!

km79

Hope to wrap this up in time for our 3 months of holidays

km79

4.55pm Friday evening

https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2020-press-releases/PR20-02-22.html

Treppen

km79 wrote: »

Hope to wrap this up in time for our 3 months of holidays

You might be thinking that alright buddy, but that ain't necessarily so.

km79

Treppen wrote: »

You might be thinking that alright buddy, but that ain't necessarily so.

Not a notion

Blondini

I note the word 'evidence' makes 65 appearances in the document.

I still don't know if my record of results of assessments in my teacher journal qualify as evidence without the students' physical piece of work.

I would love clarity on this as it would have a significant impact on some individual grades.

Anybody got any insight on this

History Queen

Blondini wrote: »

I note the word 'evidence' makes 65 appearances in the document.

I still don't know if my record of results of assessments in my teacher journal qualify as evidence without the students' physical piece of work.

I would love clarity on this as it would have a significant impact on some individual grades.

Anybody got any insight on this

No idea, also for the last few years we are asked to shred our journals at the end of the school year. Does that stand this year?

History Queen

TUI's latest statement:

https://www.tui.ie/news/vindication-of-tui-position-on-comprehensive-indemnity.13760.html

joebloggs32

History Queen wrote: »

No idea, also for the last few years we are asked to shred our journals at the end of the school year. Does that stand this year?

What clown told ye to do that.

You should retain that information in a secure location, especially while they are students in your school. As professionals we need data to be able to gauge student progression. The leaving and juniocert does not take place in a single year.
People really have lost the run of themselves with GDPR. Once data is used appropriately and securely stored then there is no problem. Put it in your schools GDPR policy.

r93kaey5p2izun

History Queen wrote: »

No idea, also for the last few years we are asked to shred our journals at the end of the school year. Does that stand this year?

We had been told the opposite. That we must keep all student related data until 7 years after they graduate, or until they are 25, whichever is the later.

History Queen

joebloggs32 wrote: »

What clown told ye to do that.

You should retain that information in a secure location, especially while they are students in your school. As professionals we need data to be able to gauge student progression. The leaving and juniocert does not take place in a single year.
People really have lost the run of themselves with GDPR. Once data is used appropriately and securely stored then there is no problem. Put it in your schools GDPR policy.

ETB wide policy in our ETB. All teacher journals to be destroyed at end of school year or preferably not used at all. We do have VSWARE which has records of house exams/behaviour/attendance and homework.

km79

joebloggs32 wrote: »

What clown told ye to do that.

You should retain that information in a secure location, especially while they are students in your school. As professionals we need data to be able to gauge student progression. The leaving and juniocert does not take place in a single year.
People really have lost the run of themselves with GDPR. Once data is used appropriately and securely stored then there is no problem. Put it in your schools GDPR policy.

We were also told that due to GDPR
Their exams results are available on line

Funny how GDPR conveniently went away for the few months too.

km79

History Queen wrote: »

ETB wide policy in our ETB. All teacher journals to be destroyed at end of school year or preferably not used at all. We do have VSWARE which has records of house exams/behaviour/attendance and homework.

We are moving completely this way next year too

km79

Blondini wrote: »

I note the word 'evidence' makes 65 appearances in the document.

I still don't know if my record of results of assessments in my teacher journal qualify as evidence without the students' physical piece of work.

I would love clarity on this as it would have a significant impact on some individual grades.

Anybody got any insight on this

Evidence refers to exam results like that. Also homework records , projects etc
ASTI have advised members to stick with published historical data only .i.e. Xmas , summer exams and so on

doc_17

History Queen wrote: »

ETB wide policy in our ETB. All teacher journals to be destroyed at end of school year or preferably not used at all. We do have VSWARE which has records of house exams/behaviour/attendance and homework.

We buy our own. I’ll not be destroying it.

History Queen

doc_17 wrote: »

We buy our own. I’ll not be destroying it.

We have option of school provided folder with inserts or can provide our own if we wish.

6am7f9zxrsjvnb

Blondini wrote: »

I note the word 'evidence' makes 65 appearances in the document.

I still don't know if my record of results of assessments in my teacher journal qualify as evidence without the students' physical piece of work.

I would love clarity on this as it would have a significant impact on some individual grades.

Anybody got any insight on this

Of course your record of their results count as evidence. Why wouldn’t they???
You recorded their results . That’s evidence.

The only evidence I have are the House exams and pre result on VSware....oh , and my utterly unquantifiable professional judgement.

I’ d actually pay for their copies now!!

You have plenty evidence. Relax.

km79

“Mr McHugh conceded that the predictive grades system was not perfect and not his preferred method of assessment.

He said that further clarification may be needed in the weeks and months ahead”

Don’t like the sound of that !

mirrorwall14

km79 wrote: »

“Mr McHugh conceded that the predictive grades system was not perfect and not his preferred method of assessment.

He said that further clarification may be needed in the weeks and months ahead”

Don’t like the sound of that !

Ah Jesus can they not just stop the open ended statements ffs.

I have pretty much only my vsware results and I think two class test records. That’ll have to do for evidence tbh!

km79

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2020/0522/1140111-cabinet-politics/

Fancy being a guinea pig in September ........

amacca

History Queen wrote: »

TUI's latest statement:

https://www.tui.ie/news/vindication-of-tui-position-on-comprehensive-indemnity.13760.html

I note the use of the word vindication....does that mean that the TUI are claiming they were correct all along?...that the indemnity they had got was sufficient and the ASTis action wasn't needed?

or are they trying to avoid egg on their face?

My reading of it was the indemnity wasnt sufficient and the ASTI were right to fulfill their role and stand up for their members...

What do ye think?


I also noted this "In the course of the TUI’s ongoing engagement with the Department of Education and Skills regarding the use for this year (only) of a system of Calculated Grades, the Union sought and secured a number of specific protections for staff involved in the school-based generation of estimated marks." .....................notice the only is in brackets....I appreciate it perhaps may be necessary while covid is around but could this also be leaving the door slightly ajar for more of this craic going into the future?

History Queen

amacca wrote: »

I note the use of the word vindication....does that mean that the TUI are claiming they were correct all along?...that the indemnity they had got was sufficient and the ASTis action wasn't needed?

or are they trying to avoid egg on their face?

My reading of it was the indemnity wasnt sufficient and the ASTI were right to fulfill their role and stand up for their members...

What do ye think?

I had the same thought process as you. I'm reslly not sure what to think.

amacca

Im of the strong suspicion that they haven't been vindicated at all and if it wasnt for the ASTI seeking clarification there would have existed the possibility of teachers bearing some portion of legal costs if a legal action was taken against them.....

If that is the case it should be made clear and attempts to airbrush it with crefully chosen words like vindication should be seen for what they are.

I would be interested to hear what others more informed than me have to say however as I suppose I really dont know either.

History Queen

amacca wrote: »

Im of the strong suspicion that they haven't been vindicated at all and if it wasnt for the ASTI seeking clarification there would have existed the possibility of teachers bearing some portion of legal costs if a legal action was taken against them.....

If that is the case it should be made clear and attempts to airbrush it with crefully chosen words like vindication should be seen for what they are.

I would be interested to hear what others more informed than me have to say however as I suppose I really dont know either.

Whereas I was leaning the other way, that the ASTI had misunderstood either the wording or the advice that they got on it and all has been explained/clarified for them today. I mean the wording hasn't changed from what was published yesterday, yet now they are happy.

Like I say the above was what I thought until another poster said the following on a different thread: (see attached screenshot). Now I'm not sure what to think.

r93kaey5p2izun

So DES claim the indemnity has not changed. TUI support that claim. ASTI say necessary clear assurances and clarifications were provided today. I think they can all be telling truth. But I feel a lot happier thanks to the ASTI actions.

ethical

Its laughable and rather sad looking at the TUI website with regards to Legal indemnity:

"Clarification in respect of all issues raised by the TUI is being provided."

So they jumped the gun and sold their members while the ASTI were more cautious....and guess who is getting the bad press over all this.....of course its the ASTI!
The TUI didnt question and ran to the media and had half a story! The fcukin Media did not even check the TUI wesite,if they did they would have seen the half baked effort.....that while they (TUI) were OK with it they had sought clarification from DEPT and this only came about because the ASTI played hard ball and got bad press in the process.The feckin TUI are a fcukin headline seeking dose and they feckin Media love them.The truth came about by way of the good work done by the ASTI and as posters know I do not give credit only when it is due and on this ocassion the ASTI has made a potential bad case much much better for their teachers and indeed all teachers with the full legal indemnity.

Treppen

History Queen wrote: »

ETB wide policy in our ETB. All teacher journals to be destroyed at end of school year or preferably not used at all. We do have VSWARE which has records of house exams/behaviour/attendance and homework.

That means you have to go to UK every year with a hammer and destroy their server.

Treppen

Blondini wrote: »

I note the word 'evidence' makes 65 appearances in the document.

I still don't know if my record of results of assessments in my teacher journal qualify as evidence without the students' physical piece of work.

I would love clarity on this as it would have a significant impact on some individual grades.

Anybody got any insight on this

Your over thinking it, everything is evidence, it all goes to form your final 'calculation'.
There will be no court case where you have to submit physical evidence. Appeal will only be based on checking the numbers entered or the school past stats.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Training video up

https://vimeo.com/421625482

If you've the document read there's nothing new in it

mirrorwall14

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Training video up

https://vimeo.com/421625482

If you've the document read there's nothing new in it

Where did you get this?

km79

45 minutes
Another croke park hour for next year when they are all taken into account retrospectively.....

jimmytwotimes 2013

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Where did you get this?

Emailed to us today by school

mirrorwall14

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Emailed to us today by school

We got it too but with a caveat that they don't know the source

Treppen

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

We got it too but with a caveat that they don't know the source

... as if someone would create it in their spare time. Lol

mirrorwall14

Treppen wrote: »

... as if someone would create it in their spare time. Lol

Can you imagine :D

rainbowtrout

Treppen wrote: »

... as if someone would create it in their spare time. Lol

She does have that 'Leigh anois go curamach...' type voice alright

rainbowtrout

Student portal is opening on Tuesday. So realistically you can't submit grades to school until Wednesday at the earliest.

Bobtheman

When is this process meant to be completed???

km79

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Student portal is opening on Tuesday. So realistically you can't submit grades to school until Wednesday at the earliest.

I haven’t enough information to even start it
To do this properly I will be asking the school to provide me with
- Subject dept analysis for each of the last 3 years
- results of my own LC classes for each of the last 3 years
- ideally the Mock results of those LC classes for the last 3 years also
I will be asking for them to be sent on Monday morning

After that I really don’t see it taking more than this week.
Tough decisions will have to be made. But they just will have to be made end of story .

The subject alignment meeting is just really seeking reassurances from colleagues .
Perhaps looking at the total number of students at each grade across all classes to make sure we have not gone too crazy with any particular grade . We do not have to rank them all together which was what I feared first . So again that should not take more than an hour .