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Circular Number: 0037/2020

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    #152
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,902 ✭✭✭Rosita


    [quote="Bobtheman;113537349"

    A kid taking legal action will be rare especially given they have the chance to take a re sit . [/quote]

    It'll be rare if it happens at all. But if it happens the process will be available to all. Bottom line is that teachers just need to be very robust in their data and judgement and not assume that their outcome will never be subjected to any outside scrutiny.


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    #153
    Bobtheman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    Government also agreed that this system must include a number of key elements, including
    reliance on the professional judgment of each of the candidate’s teachers which will not be
    subject to appeal; in-school alignment to ensure fairness amongst candidates at the school level;
    approval by the school principal of the estimated marks and rankings of students in the school;
    a process of standardization at national level to ensure fairness amongst all candidates; a right
    of appeal by candidates which will involve data checks on school-entered data, correct

    transfer of that data to the Department of Education and Skills, a review that the data was
    correctly received and processed by the Department, a verification of the Department’s
    processes by independent appeal scrutineers and, if the candidate remains dissatisfied, the
    opportunity to sit the written Leaving Certificate examination when it is safe and practicable
    for such examinations to be held.


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    #154
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    Rosita wrote: »
    Lawyers will probably advise on that in due course. But the idea that someone could potentially pull a mark out if their rear end and not have it capable of being challenged is fanciful.

    Well teachers would want to seek the advice of these lawyers fairly sharpish then to ensure their professional judgement decisions are overtly defensible in the face of legal challenge. Either professional judgement is protected and the procedure of school alignment and principal sign off is considered adequate in terms of checks and balances, or concrete advice on what will be considered defensible is urgently required.


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    #155
    Bobtheman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    The appeal part seems quite narrow-in that a student can only check each part of the process was carried out-but bottom line they are told to go do a resist if really unhappy.


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    #156
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,902 ✭✭✭Rosita


    Lindsey Happy Asphalt wrote: »
    Are you aware of the other stages of the process?
    Tha alignment meeting?
    The Principal’s role?
    Nobody will be pulling results out of their rear end.

    Yes, I heard something about those alright. But someone mentioned class tests and marks in the teacher journal, in other words, marks which do not have the provenance of published school reports.


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    #157
    Bobtheman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    Legend Numerous Fig wrote: »
    Well teachers would want to seek the advice of these lawyers fairly sharpish then to ensure their professional judgement decisions are overtly defensible in the face of legal challenge. Either professional judgement is protected and the procedure of school alignment and principal sign off is considered adequate in terms of checks and balances, or concrete advice on what will be considered defensible is urgently required.

    Worth reading the appeal part which I posted


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    #158
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,902 ✭✭✭Rosita


    Bobtheman wrote: »
    The appeal part seems quite narrow-in that a student can only check each part of the process was carried out-but bottom line they are told to go do a resist if really unhappy.

    If they are missing out on a college course because of an estimated grade, will lose a year because of it, and have the legal clout to do something about it, what Joe McHugh tells them they can or can't appeal won't count for much. See how long his JC instructions lasted.


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    #159
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,902 ✭✭✭Rosita


    Legend Numerous Fig wrote: »
    Well teachers would want to seek the advice of these lawyers fairly sharpish then to ensure their professional judgement decisions are overtly defensible in the face of legal challenge. Either professional judgement is protected and the procedure of school alignment and principal sign off is considered adequate in terms of checks and balances, or concrete advice on what will be considered defensible is urgently required.

    Loads of things are considered perfectly good and have been blown apart in the courts afterwards. There is no way to be absolutely sure what will happen when a challenge happens. Its just better to be aware of it and for teachers to believe they are in some kind of legal vacuum. If they were then the ASTI would not have been looking a few days ago for the Dept of Ed to pick up the tab in case of a legal challenge. Why were the Dept of Ed talking about that if there can be no challenge whatsoever to a teacher?


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    #160
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    Rosita wrote: »
    Loads of things are considered perfectly good and have been blown apart in the courts afterwards. There is no way to be absolutely sure what will happen when a challenge happens. Its just better to be aware of it and for teachers to believe they are in some kind of legal vacuum. If they were then the ASTI would not have been looking a few days ago for the Dept of Ed to pick up the tab in case of a legal challenge. Why were the Dept of Ed talking about that if there can be no challenge whatsoever to a teacher?

    I agree. Teachers will be challenged legally. And they should be prepared. But I don't believe it is possible for professional judgement of a teacher to be overtly defensible in the context of our system. No matter what it will be easily torn apart by a good lawyer. You think it should be overtly defensible and all I asked was how? You say lawyers will advise - when? After the fact when it's too late? Are you confident you will be able to successfully defend your professional judgement in a legal sense?


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    #161
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,902 ✭✭✭Rosita


    Legend Numerous Fig wrote: »
    I agree. Teachers will be challenged legally. And they should be prepared. But I don't believe it is possible for professional judgement of a teacher to be overtly defensible in the context of our system. No matter what it will be easily torn apart by a good lawyer. You think it should be overtly defensible and all I asked was how? You say lawyers will advise - when? After the fact when it's too late? Are you confident you will be able to successfully defend your professional judgement in a legal sense?

    I cannot predict the outcome of a potential legal case but I am confident I will be able to stand over them and overtly defend them as they will be evidence-based on exams held across all classes in the school and any judgement call will be minimal and marginal. Whetehr that would be enough to withstand legal argument I haven't heard is another matter. But the law is probably fairly inchoate in this area so who knows where a legal case might bring it. All I can say is that I am around the block enough times to know that the Minister saying they can't appeal this or that has as much substance as a sign in a car-park saying they are not responsible for your car, or on a premises saying you enter at your own risk.


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    #162
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    Rosita wrote: »
    I am confident I will be able to stand over them and overtly defend them as they will be evidence-based on exams held across all classes in the school and any judgement call will be minimal and marginal.

    Well then you are in a very lucky position if you believe these exams support your professional judgement on what mark the students are most likely to achieve, and therefore any subjective judgements required need only be minimal. Perhaps school context is a big factor, or perhaps subjects differ considerably, but my experience is that such school exams would not be adequately representative without very significant input from the teacher's professional judgement.


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    #163
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,902 ✭✭✭Rosita


    Legend Numerous Fig wrote: »
    Well then you are in a very lucky position if you believe these exams support your professional judgement on what mark the students are most likely to achieve, and therefore any subjective judgements required need only be minimal. Perhaps school context is a big factor, or perhaps subjects differ considerably, but my experience is that such school exams would not be adequately representative without very significant input from the teacher's professional judgement.

    That's fair enough. It's a perfectly reasonable argument. Do not be afraid to stand over it.


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    #164
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,581 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Dunno why people are so concerned.
    There's going to be zero court cases against any teacher who doesn't break confidentiality and isn't taking the proverbial.

    But, Let's take it to the nth degree.

    You're on the stand in a hearing and your asked why you gave them 65% instead of 78% ?

    Just say "well in the mocks they got 55% but failed to demonstrate that they understood questions X and y continuously in class, so on the best day of an exam and all the same topics came up I don't think they would have grasped that concept given what they've shown, so that's approx 35% of any question, in my professional opinion at that exact point in time".

    The only comeback is for them to ask for more evidence. Just say you observed it and it's in your brain.
    Anyway the burden of proof is on them so they have to provide their own evidence to the contrary that Jimmy would have gotten 78%. What are they going to do?

    Court cases will go nowhere unless there's been a breech of procedure.


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    #165
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,902 ✭✭✭Rosita


    Treppen wrote: »

    The only comeback is for them to ask for more evidence. Just say you observed it and it's in your brain.
    Anyway the burden of proof is on them so they have to provide their own evidence to the contrary that Jimmy would have gotten 78%. What are they going to do?


    Not sure it works like that. I doubt a barrister would be expected to provide evidence of a student's academic capacities since that is determined in school. It would be the teacher's procedures and standards in arriving at that judgement that would be tested.


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    #166
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,804 ✭✭✭amacca


    Rosita wrote: »
    Not sure it works like that. I doubt a barrister would be expected to provide evidence of a student's academic capacities since that is determined in school. It would be the teacher's procedures and standards in arriving at that judgement that would be tested.

    I tend to agree with that bit at least....I think people are lightly brushing over potentially serious legal challenges down the line ..... the only thing that is a mitigating factor imo is those challenging may have pause for thought if the state is defending...you would want to be determined and have deep pockets or support of a group to enter into potentially long drawn out legal proceedings.


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    #167
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,148 ✭✭✭✭km79


    I think we can all agree that it is way too open to different interpretations. A long week ahead :(


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    #168
    Bobtheman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    The Government is generally capable of dealing with legal challenges. They rarely succeed against them. Given the Covid situation its very unlikely the courts will look kindly on any action. Going to court is frightfully expensive and for what exactly because you wont do a re-sit?? I know there was a case last year over appeals but this is a different ball game. This is a once off event (hopefully)


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    #169
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,581 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Rosita wrote: »
    Not sure it works like that. I doubt a barrister would be expected to provide evidence of a student's academic capacities since that is determined in school. It would be the teacher's procedures and standards in arriving at that judgement that would be tested.

    tested against what though?

    "Mrs. Lovely, in your professional opinion why do you think young Jimmy here should only get 75%"

    "Because that's my professional opinion based on what I saw"

    If a barrister has no counter evidence then who do you go with?


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    #170
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,581 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Bobtheman wrote: »
    The Government is generally capable of dealing with legal challenges. They rarely succeed against them. Given the Covid situation its very unlikely the courts will look kindly on any action. Going to court is frightfully expensive and for what exactly because you wont do a re-sit?? I know there was a case last year over appeals but this is a different ball game. This is a once off event (hopefully)

    That case hinged on visual indisputable evidence.
    The scores were totted up incorrectly.
    That was an open and shut case.


    Don't forget that for years students have been trying to get rid of the special note on their exam script if they have had reasonable accommodations.
    The student here won her case at the Equality Tribunal and was awarded 6,000eur and the government were told to remove it https://www.ihrec.ie/supreme-court-clarifies-duties-towards-students-disability-discrimination-case/

    But get this, the department then appealed through the Circuit Court... the High Court ....and then The Supreme Court.

    Just to protect the integrity of the exam!

    So in a way the ASTI were dead right to insist on the Dept carrying the can. Hopefully the department will keep their word :pac:


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    #171
    JDMC2
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭JDMC2


    So, have we have any idea what the student will actually see during their appeal?
    If they are allocated a H3......will they be able to go online on the day of the results and see that they were awarded 75%.......little Johnny feels he should have received a H2......he appeals.....can he then be shown that his teacher gave him 81%......don’t think Johnny’s mammy will be happy


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    #172
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,581 ✭✭✭Treppen


    From what I gather the appeal process only checks to see if the procedure was done correctly so I don't think the grade forms part of it.

    Do the students receive a breakdown of subject grades, like for normal leaving cert?
    So they can appeal just one subject as opposed to everything?


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    #173
    Moody_mona
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭Moody_mona


    Blondini wrote: »
    I have a maths department meeting tomorrow off which I'm the lead.
    We can see each other's results according to the guidelines.

    If I feel they were too lenient or too strict, do I adjust accordingly.

    This is a few pages back but just want to pull it up because it wasn't commented on. You absolutely cannot adjust other teachers' marks.


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    #174
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    Treppen wrote: »
    From what I gather the appeal process only checks to see if the procedure was done correctly so I don't think the grade forms part of it.

    Do the students receive a breakdown of subject grades, like for normal leaving cert?
    So they can appeal just one subject as opposed to everything?

    They have to receive subject grades. Course entry still has specific subject requirements.


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    #175
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    Moody_mona wrote: »
    This is a few pages back but just want to pull it up because it wasn't commented on. You absolutely cannot adjust other teachers' marks.

    I agree. However if you were totally unhappy with things at the end of the alignment meeting then I think you would have to inform the principal.


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    #176
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,581 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Moody_mona wrote: »
    This is a few pages back but just want to pull it up because it wasn't commented on. You absolutely cannot adjust other teachers' marks.

    Yes and here would be a potential case Teacher Vs Teacher.

    The final grade to be submitted MUST fall to the subject teacher.
    Question is though, who ultimately submits the final number?


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    #177
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    Treppen wrote: »
    Yes and here would be a potential case Teacher Vs Teacher.

    The final grade to be submitted MUST fall to the subject teacher.
    Question is though, who ultimately submits the final number?

    The principal must sign off and send to DES.


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    #178
    Bobtheman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    How are you meant to avoid a cluster **** ? I hope people know I'm word playing here. Military term but I'm pointing to fact when im doing avg grades they are clustering like chickens being fed .


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    #179
    JDMC2
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭JDMC2


    How are you meant to avoid a cluster ****

    Unfortunately, that’s where your professionalism comes in. I have a lot of students that are ’middle of the road’ hovering in the mid-50’s. This is of course primarily based on evidence. So, I now have to use my ‘professional judgement’ to rank these seven or eight kids...... in the standardisation process, this may lead to some being put in the H5 bracket and/or others being moved up to H4 or, worse still, down to a H6 when the standardisation is complete. That’s 11 points of a difference because of my ranking students who are very similar because of my ranking students who are so similar that it’s practically impossible to predict one from the other. I won’t sleep well if, or when, this happens.

    That’s why I ask the question, can or will students see their actual %? It’s unfair that they receive it every other year and not this year.
    Furthermore, I’d like to see how the standardisation changed my %


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    #180
    Bobtheman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    I have four students whose grade avegerage is 51.2. I just then had to use the Mocks and if the mocks were the same the last grade I gave them,


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    #181
    JDMC2
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭JDMC2


    I’m in a very similar situation however I’m reluctant to base my final decision on the mocks....I suspect that a couple of the students may have had a peek at the already published papers. That’s only a feeling though.
    I’m going to have to base it on their participation in class and my ‘professional judgement’


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