fundamentalists using covid to ram through measures

strandroad

Muahahaha wrote: »

I often see this argument mentioned, mainly in the Journal comments and wonder is it true.

I would have thought that Dundrum Shopping Centre is what effects Dun Laoighires retail offering which mainly consists of an old and dated shopping centre with very small retail units. Retail has moved on in the last 20 years and the likes of the House of Fraser were never going to set up in DL because retail units there were nowhere near big enough to carry their vast range of stock.

Definitely. It would be handy for me to shop in Dun Laoghaire but it only has small dingy shops closing at 5-6pm during the week and mostly closed on Sundays too. This used to be fine up until the 1990s but it's only good for pensioners or otherwise unemployed now so its state is reflecting that. The Keegan hate is just an urban legend. Note that you can still drive through George's St and park there, and multiple buses go straight through.

Dravokivich

Hurrache wrote: »

Anyone who wants to see cars drive right through the middle of the city centre, for no other reason than a rat run, are wrong.

There's no arguing against that fact, as much as you try.


BTW, there's loads of threads on it.

A rat run? The liffey has very limited crossing points and most of them just happen to be in the city. There's only 1 outside of the city that isn't on a motorway.

tricky D

This has been on the cards for at least 10 years:

College Green Plaza - Pedestrianise College Green for 2016
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64906997

Hurrache

Dravokivich wrote: »

A rat run? The liffey has very limited crossing points and most of them just happen to be in the city. There's only 1 outside of the city that isn't on a motorway.

Why would you need to use College Green?

1 sheep2

strandroad wrote: »

Definitely. It would be handy for me to shop in Dun Laoghaire but it only has small dingy shops closing at 5-6pm during the week and mostly closed on Sundays too. This used to be fine up until the 1990s but it's only good for pensioners or otherwise unemployed now so its state is reflecting that. The Keegan hate is just an urban legend. Note that you can still drive through George's St and park there, and multiple buses go straight through.

Dun Laoghaire's a strange little place. Surrounded by wealthy Monkstown, Sandycove and Glenageary, with a large stock of affluent housing behind it. In the East Pier it has one of Dublin's most iconic attractions and is only up the road from Sandycove Beach and the Forty Foot, also among the most popular. Its attractive park hosts a popular Sunday market and it is one of few urban places in Dublin with public tennis courts. It has a cinema, a busy theatre and one of the nicest suburban hotels in Dublin outside of the embassy district and, thanks to Keegan, one of Ireland's finest libraries. There's a bustling Wetherspoons, some decent cafes and eateries, and a nationally famous ice cream parlour. Three yacht clubs and a marina bring wealthy people to the area. Add to the mix a hospital and a veterinary practice, and it seems like it should be a dream town. Yet, despite all this, its shops are drab and the high street is filled with undesirables.

It's difficult to see what Keegan might have done to suppress the town despite all its natural advantages! I think there are two things that count against Dun Laoghaire. First is that George's Street is too long. No town could expect to fill a 1km-long high street as well as a shopping centre. Second is that there is very little commercial development in the area. Places like Blackrock, Ballsbridge and Rathmines are sustained by officer workers at lunchtime and after work. It's a shame, really. Listing its positive qualities emphasises to me what Dun Laoghaire could be.

AndrewJRenko

listermint wrote: »

We need large free parking across all satellite counties and suburbs or close to serviced by regular, tracked bus systems. It should take 40 mins or under to get right into the heart of dublin. That should be the goal.

Why would you expect free storage space for your private property?

L1011 wrote: »

You may want to note that the protesting traders do not, with the possibly exception of Arnotts, sell ironing boards. And the Arnotts ones would be of a premium type you'd just get delivered, even from Arnotts.

People don't go to the city centre to do food shopping or hardware shopping unless they already live there.

You also may want to note that the protesting traders are all car park operators. The issue isn't the trading. The issue is their car parking business that they are desperately trying to protect, regardless of the cost on the rest of society.

RobAMerc

thenightman wrote: »

the only people doing this arguing are motorists who somehow believe it's their god given right to drive their inefficient space taking vehicles through narrow city centre streets, and lobby groups for car park owners.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

L1011

1 sheep2 wrote: »

No town could expect to fill a 1km-long high street as well as a shopping centre.

TWO shopping centres. Rot really sat in when Bloomfields took further traffic away from the main street and the existing S/C

Jizique

RobAMerc wrote: »

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Can we please close South William Street, Exchequer Street, Clarendon Street and Drury Street to traffic; this would be a real gamechanger for the city

major interest

As mentioned, there has already been years of debate and arguments surrounding the benefits of pedestrianising parts of our city centres. College green is seen as a big ticket item in this regard and naturally people will gravitate to it. However, it’s part of what should be a broader move to pedestrianise central urban areas leading to better public realm, safety and living standards.

Some streets in Cork are also currently being ear marked for pedestrianisation. It’s not a great reflection on decision makers that it takes a pandemic to make things happen but ultimately it’s the right direction to take.

1 sheep2

Jizique wrote: »

Can we please close South William Street, Exchequer Street, Clarendon Street and Drury Street to traffic; this would be a real gamechanger for the city

There remains the problem of car parks. And the risk of doing too much too quickly. I favour 'shared space' streets in that area. Traffic volume is low in the which would enable pedestrians to walk comfortably while moving out of the way of slow-moving traffic. 'Shared space' has the added advantage of being uncomfortable for drivers which would decrease volume further.

major interest wrote: »

As mentioned, there has already been years of debate and arguments surrounding the benefits of pedestrianising parts of our city centres. College green is seen as a big ticket item in this regard and naturally people will gravitate to it. However, it’s part of what should be a broader move to pedestrianise central urban areas leading to better public realm, safety and living standards.

Some streets in Cork are also currently being ear marked for pedestrianisation. It’s not a great reflection on decision makers that it takes a pandemic to make things happen but ultimately it’s the right direction to take.

The way to fix a dysfunctional process is not to opportunistically force through change. If anything, it will increase resistance to change in future.

Hurrache

1 sheep2 wrote: »

favour 'shared space' streets in that area. Traffic volume is low in the which would enable pedestrians to walk comfortably while moving out of the way of slow-moving traffic.

Traffic volume is not low on those streets though, very often, regularly, they're bumper to bumper, and dicks regularly beep people crossing in front with no respect or care for people.

1 sheep2

Hurrache wrote: »

Traffic volume is not low on those streets though, very often, regularly, they're bumper to bumper, and dicks regularly beep people crossing in front with no respect or care for people.

I'm a student and was there daily. My experience could hardly be different from yours, apart from maybe during deliveries.

L1011

1 sheep2 wrote: »

I'm a student and was there daily. My experience could hardly be different from yours, apart from maybe during deliveries.

~5pm it can take ten plus minutes to get down South William Street by car, its that crammed. And that's when many of the businesses will be getting busy.

Its the most obvious street in the area to be pedestrianised as its got tiny footpaths and loads of food and drink outlets that will need more space outside. Shared space will be no use there.

There are other streets where shared space setups are fine but they need to be vastly lower traffic.

major interest

1 sheep2 wrote: »

There remains the problem of car parks. And the risk of doing too much too quickly. I favour 'shared space' streets in that area. Traffic volume is low in the which would enable pedestrians to walk comfortably while moving out of the way of slow-moving traffic. 'Shared space' has the added advantage of being uncomfortable for drivers which would decrease volume further.



The way to fix a dysfunctional process is not to opportunistically force through change. If anything, it will increase resistance to change in future.

I don't disagree with you on that. In fact as I stated it’s a poor reflection on the decision making process in general that it’s only happening now during the pandemic.

1 sheep2

L1011 wrote: »

~5pm it can take ten plus minutes to get down South William Street by car, its that crammed. And that's when many of the businesses will be getting busy.

Its the most obvious street in the area to be pedestrianised as its got tiny footpaths and loads of food and drink outlets that will need more space outside. Shared space will be no use there.

There are other streets where shared space setups are fine but they need to be vastly lower traffic.

5pm? You mean, right at the time that Brown Thomas car park is emptying? At practically every other time, traffic volume is minimal.

As it happens, I agree that South William could and should be pedestrianised, with BT car park exiting right, back into a 'shared space' Exchequer Street.

major interest wrote: »

I don't disagree with you on that. In fact as I stated it’s a poor reflection on the decision making process in general that it’s only happening now during the pandemic.

It's not caused by a failure to take decisions, though. Reports have been done, applications filed. It's a result of a dysfunctional, bureaucratic system that seems to stymie creative thinking at every turn. Every time the system is bypassed, the likelihood of ever reforming it decreases.

Hurrache

1 sheep2 wrote: »

I'm a student and was there daily. My experience could hardly be different from yours, apart from maybe during deliveries.

I used to work off just one of those streets at weekends, it was the worse place for traffic in the city, it would be back as far as the Aul Stand trying to wind it's way passed St. Stephens Green.

Even now when I'm in there traffic is just brutal all afternoon, and forget about it coming up to Christmas, which is worse because the narrow streets around there are packed and you regularly have to step off them.

1 sheep2

Hurrache wrote: »

I used to work off just one of those streets at weekends, it was the worse place for traffic in the city, it would be back as far as the Aul Stand trying to wind it's way passed St. Stephens Green.

Even now when I'm in there traffic is just brutal all afternoon, and forget about it coming up to Christmas, which is worse because the narrow streets around there are packed and you regularly have to step off them.

We obviously visit different cities.

strandroad

1 sheep2 wrote: »

We obviously visit different cities.

Perhaps you're only there during the day? Before the lockdown I used to be in the area frequently but only after work or on weekends and the traffic through South William St was bumper to bumper more often than not. There's actually logjams of people on the footpaths because they are too narrow to pass and you can't step out on the road under the cars.

Ballso

1 sheep2 wrote: »

We obviously visit different cities.

Traffic volume is ridiculous around that area, they weekend especially is a joke. Why do people even drive through it? Needs to be pedestrianised, even before college green.

1 sheep2

I guess this is just another case of people swearing that O'Connell Street is a zombie wasteland of junkies when it measurably isn't.

strandroad

1 sheep2 wrote: »

I guess this is just another case of people swearing that O'Connell Street is a zombie wasteland of junkies when it measurably isn't.

Or perhaps if several unrelated people disagree with you it's you who is incorrect? Just a thought.

1 sheep2

strandroad wrote: »

Or perhaps if several unrelated people disagree with you it's you who is incorrect? Just a thought.

Yes, three people contradicting me on the internet is all I need to change my mind about something I've experienced daily for the past several years.

Jizique

1 sheep2 wrote: »

There remains the problem of car parks. And the risk of doing too much too quickly. I favour 'shared space' streets in that area. Traffic volume is low in the which would enable pedestrians to walk comfortably while moving out of the way of slow-moving traffic. 'Shared space' has the added advantage of being uncomfortable for drivers which would decrease volume further.



The way to fix a dysfunctional process is not to opportunistically force through change. If anything, it will increase resistance to change in future.

Whatever about the poor car parks and their owners, can you. At least agree that there is no justification for on-Street parking on any of those streets....

1 sheep2

Jizique wrote: »

Whatever about the poor car parks and their owners, can you. At least agree that there is no justification for on-Street parking on any of those streets....

Can I what? Of course I agree about parking in that area. I don't know what that I said might imply I'm not.

Muahahaha

strandroad wrote: »

Definitely. It would be handy for me to shop in Dun Laoghaire but it only has small dingy shops closing at 5-6pm during the week and mostly closed on Sundays too. This used to be fine up until the 1990s but it's only good for pensioners or otherwise unemployed now so its state is reflecting that. The Keegan hate is just an urban legend. Note that you can still drive through George's St and park there, and multiple buses go straight through.

Yeah the retail offering in Dun Laoighire really is pretty dire and its stuck in a time warp. John and Marys haberdashery shop just cant compete with whats on offer in Dundrum. The sheer length of Georges St doesnt help either, Frascati and Nutgrove still do good trade despite Dundrum nearby, probably because shopping there isnt the same hassle it is in DL.

The Owen Keegan hate seems to be mainly a motorist thing manifested in the Journal comments. He's the anti Christ to some people. Id more see him as a city manager whose heart is in the right place in making it a better place to visit but he struggles through endless bureaucracy in actually getting schemes implemented such as College Green and the Liffey cycle route. He seems to be using his opportunity now though.

tricky D wrote: »

This has been on the cards for at least 10 years:

College Green Plaza - Pedestrianise College Green for 2016
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64906997

Was standing in College Green a couple of weeks back and just taking a look around it really is a mess, theres poles, traffic lights and junction boxes everywhere and then the cheapo bollards in the cycle lane to top it off. Its going to take a big effort to upgrade it. Its not even that big of a space, the artists renderings make it look like this giant plaza but when you're there its pretty small overall.

major interest

1 sheep2 wrote: »

It's not caused by a failure to take decisions, though. Reports have been done, applications filed. It's a result of a dysfunctional, bureaucratic system that seems to stymie creative thinking at every turn. Every time the system is bypassed, the likelihood of ever reforming it decreases.

The bureaucracy by its very nature impacts the speed at which decisions are taken. All the reports and expert advice could point to a particular course of action. However, that still does not guarantee a decision making body (DCC in this instance) will take this action, or maybe they do but at the end of a long drawn out process. In this case, some other unforeseen circumstance (implementing social distancing in a pandemic) has made it “easier” for them to implement a decision that should already have been taken under normal circumstances.

1 sheep2

Muahahaha wrote: »

Yeah the retail offering in Dun Laoighire really is pretty dire and its stuck in a time warp. John and Marys haberdashery shop just cant compete with whats on offer in Dundrum. The sheer length of Georges St doesnt help either, Frascati and Nutgrove still do good trade despite Dundrum nearby, probably because shopping there isnt the same hassle it is in DL.

The Owen Keegan hate seems to be mainly a motorist thing manifested in the Journal comments. He's the anti Christ to some people. Id more see him as a city manager whose heart is in the right place in making it a better place to visit but he struggles through endless bureaucracy in actually getting schemes implemented such as College Green and the Liffey cycle route. He seems to be using his opportunity now though.

Was standing in College Green a couple of weeks back and just taking a look around it really is a mess, theres poles, traffic lights and junction boxes everywhere and then the cheapo bollards in the cycle lane to top it off. Its going to take a big effort to upgrade it. Its not even that big of a space, the artists renderings make it look like this giant plaza but when you're there its pretty small overall.

I was (briefly) in this shop in George's Street looking for shoes. It was like stepping back in time.

I presume Frescati benefits greatly from the volume of traffic along the Blackrock bypass. But even 'boutique' stores in the village seem able to sustain themselves.

Keegan did fiddle with traffic routing and increased the price of parking, and at a time when Dun Laoghaire was vulnerable during the recession. But I largely agree that everything he did was a sensible attempt to improve the area. People seem to think he acts on personal whim rather than the recommendations of endless studies.

Agree that College Green is smaller than might be thought, but what would be gained by it being bigger? When cleared of clutter and, hopefully, trees (trees are for anywhere but a plaza, despite what many think instinctively), the feeling of space will extend all the way down Dame Street and front square of Trinity College will act as an extension. I argued before that its greatest strength is that it gives coherence to the city, acting as the midpoint between Grafton and surrounding streets, Temple Bar and O'Connell/Henry.

Danzy

It should have been done years ago.


A fu78ing pity that it's the greens it was left to.

Muahahaha

1 sheep2 wrote: »

Agree that College Green is smaller than might be thought, but what would be gained by it being bigger? When cleared of clutter and, hopefully, trees (trees are for anywhere but a plaza, despite what many think instinctively), the feeling of space will extend all the way down Dame Street and front square of Trinity College will act as an extension. I argued before that its greatest strength is that it gives coherence to the city, acting as the midpoint between Grafton and surrounding streets, Temple Bar and O'Connell/Henry.

Yeah it was just when I was standing there and it was pretty empty i was thinking back to the artists rendering of it and which shows this great big expansive space but when you're there it feels pretty small. But if they clean up the clutter and remove the trees next to Starbucks it would open it up a lot more. The plaza also has the benefit of making Dame St a cul de sac so that should improve things all along the street and with the old Central Bank coming on stream as a hotel, restaurants and retail the street will get rejuvenated. DCC just need to get all the landlords along Dame St to actually powerwash their buildings then and properly clean the street, if you look up they are all absolutely caked in years worth of grime and road dust.