fundamentalists using covid to ram through measures

RobAMerc

Dublin city councils cycling fundamentalists led by Mr Keegan are now trying to use Covid as an excuse to force through the pedestrianization of College Green, under the pretense of safety for social distancing - this has to be one of the most cynical things Keegan and his Green friends have ever attempted, and is a clear indication they will stop at nothing.
Having the greens in power could potentially make matters even worse - SF are starting to look like the sane option !

mvt

TO THE BARRICADES!!!!

Oh no, wait, I think it's a great idea :rolleyes:

L1011

The original college green plaza plan came from an SF led Council at the time. You'll have trouble finding any politician against it

Hurrache

It's going to be great.

Truthvader

Same old same old.Dublin City Council/ Greens will embrace any idea that punishes car owners regardless of consequences. They have no other policy. Keegan destroyed all retail business in Dun Laoghaire and it never recovered from him

Zubeneschamali

I remember the moaning and bitching when the pedestriaized Grafton Street.

Peregrine

Seems to have majority support. Maybe you're the fundamentalist.

Hodors Appletart

RobAMerc wrote: »

SF are starting to look like the sane option !

lol

Hurrache

Truthvader wrote: »

Same old same old.Dublin City Council/Greens

I take it you don't know much about the political make up of DCC?

Beechwoodspark

I’m glad there’s a thread on this. To me it looks like the city manager is exploiting the crisis to push through the pedestrian plans that otherwise would never be agreed to

Hurrache

Anyone who wants to see cars drive right through the middle of the city centre, for no other reason than a rat run, are wrong.

There's no arguing against that fact, as much as you try.


BTW, there's loads of threads on it.

Peregrine

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

I’m glad there’s a thread on this. To me it looks like the city manager is exploiting the crisis to push through the pedestrian plans that otherwise would never be agreed to

I have an email from the city manager from four weeks ago that says there's ample pedestrian space in Dublin city and that we don't need any interventions. He brushed off the idea completely.

Then he got hundreds of requests through the traffic service and almost every councillor was calling for changes. And the executive saw what other cities were doing and what's coming down the line for us if we don't do something.

Then he backed down and started making changes. So I'm calling bull**** on this conspiracy theory of Owen Keegan leading a secret agenda.

subpar

What city centre retail and traders need post lockdown is free parking till year end to bring customers back and save their businesses and jobs. This is not the time to be making it more diificult for people to get into the city. Dublin is a sprawling city stretching from Skerries in the North to Bray in the South and Naas in the West. People need a car to access the city centre . Making it harder from them to do so will only force them to use the M50 Retail Parks and lead to an empty and dead city for retailers.

Hurrache

subpar wrote: »

What city centre retail and traders need post lockdown is free parking till year end to bring customers back and save their businesses and jobs. This is not the time to be making it more diificult for people to get into the city. Dublin is a sprawling city stretching from Skerries in the North to Bray in the South and Naas in the West. People need a car to access the city centre . Making it harder from them to do so will only force them to use the M50 Retail Parks and lead to an empty and dead city for retailers.

Out of all the places you mentioned there, only 1 is in Dublin, and it's not Dublin city.

Most people don't need a car to access the city centre. And for those that do, there will be nothing stopping them accessing it via car.

You fail to see the irony in not wanting to make it more pleasant and safer for those to access it by bike or public transport, all it does is bring more private traffic to the city, and therefore more difficult for everyone.

Peregrine

subpar wrote: »

What city centre retail and traders need post lockdown is free parking till year end to bring customers back and save their businesses and jobs. This is not the time to be making it more diificult for people to get into the city. Dublin is a sprawling city stretching from Skerries in the North to Bray in the South and Naas in the West. People need a car to access the city centre . Making it harder from them to do so will only force them to use the M50 Retail Parks and lead to an empty and dead city for retailers.

20% of retail spending comes from drivers while 56% comes from public transport users. 21% from walkers. 26% of commuters come in by car while 53% use public transport.

How many more customers do you think they'll bring in by car before the city is in gridlock? If the number of cars in the city goes up by 25%, let alone tripled, it will be complete chaos. Retailers need more drivers like they need a hole in the head.

You're right, this is not the time to make it more difficult to get into the city. And if we don't do this, it will get very very difficult to get into the city.

subpar

Hurrache wrote: »

Out of all the places you mentioned there, only 1 is in Dublin, and it's not Dublin city.

Most people don't need a car to access the city centre. And for those that do, there will be nothing stopping them accessing it via car.

You fail to see the irony in not wanting to make it more pleasant and safer for those to access it by bike or public transport, all it does is bring more private traffic to the city, and therefore more difficult for everyone.

The economy , jobs , peoples livelyhoods are far more important than improving access for pedestrians at this time.
What about the rights of the hundreds of businesses in the city , many of whom have been in the same locations for decades , are their voices not entitled to heard. Have they no input into this process, particularly as they are paying high levels of rates to the city council.

John_Rambo

subpar wrote: »

The economy , jobs , peoples livelyhoods are far more important than improving access for pedestrians at this time.
What about the rights of the hundreds of businesses in the city , many of whom have been in the same locations for decades , are their voices not entitled to heard. Have they no input into this process, particularly as they are paying high levels of rates to the city council.

Same stuff doled out when Grafton street and Henry street were pedestrianised.

Hurrache

subpar wrote: »

The economy , jobs , peoples livelyhoods are far more important than improving access for pedestrians at this time.
What about the rights of the hundreds of businesses in the city , many of whom have been in the same locations for decades , are their voices not entitled to heard. Have they no input into this process, particularly as they are paying high levels of rates to the city council.

Only people who drive into the city contribute to the economy, or do so to a larger extent than those that don't?

Harry Palmr

Surely the penny must have dropped by now - cars are going to be squeezed out of all cities eventually You want to go into town? Get the bus, dart, tram, taxi, bike, walk.

Truthvader

Peregrine wrote: »

I have an email from the city manager from four weeks ago that says there's ample pedestrian space in Dublin city and that we don't need any interventions. He brushed off the idea completely.

Then he got hundreds of requests through the traffic service and almost every councillor was calling for changes. And the executive saw what other cities were doing and what's coming down the line for us if we don't do something.

Then he backed down and started making changes. So I'm calling bull**** on this conspiracy theory of Owen Keegan leading a secret agenda.

Don't think his agenda is "secret". He has devoted himself to attacking car users. Visit Dun Laoghaire and see what he has done. The solution is and has been an Underground but Keegan/ Greens will never promote that because it is not punitive of car users. First "service" re-introduced by Dublin City Council after lockdown was clamping.

Hurrache

I'm a car user, I don't feel attacked. I have the sense to realise that the city centre is no place for me to easily take my car and expect priority over everyone else when I do so. Common sense really.

JustAThought

Peregrine wrote: »

I have an email from the city manager from four weeks ago that says there's ample pedestrian space in Dublin city and that we don't need any interventions. He brushed off the idea completely.

Then he got hundreds of requests through the traffic service and almost every councillor was calling for changes. And the executive saw what other cities were doing and what's coming down the line for us if we don't do something.

Then he backed down and started making changes. So I'm calling bull**** on this conspiracy theory of Owen Keegan leading a secret agenda.

I doubt that hundreds of people spontaneously suddenly decided while the city was in lockdown and a killer plague roaming the streets to suddenly decide they all wanted a plaza - much more likely to be his staff under instructions as happens often in big organisations or a lobbying body. Keegan destroyed Dun Laoghaire, its lical businesses and passing trade, and then he spent a hundred million on a highly contraversial library and is working on ruining the businesses in the city centre and transport and working routes for the many who l need to access the city yet have no proper, frequent or reliable public transport to access it. I hope someone takes a judicial review on this and it triggers protests to the new government to control their staff who seem to think they can spend public money on vanity projects regardless of consequences and snub the state organisations there to protect against men like him.

Hurrache

I've yet to see one person, and I don't expect to see anyone on this thread do so either, give a good reason why College Green shouldn't be pedestrianised while allowing access to public transport?

JustAThought wrote: »

I hope someone takes a judicial review on this and it triggers protests to the new government to control their staff who seem to think they can spend public money on vanity projects regardless of consequences and snub the state organisations there to protect against men like him.

You've a fundamental misunderstanding of how our government works.

Peregrine

Truthvader wrote: »

First "service" re-introduced by Dublin City Council after lockdown was clamping.

And what about it? Illegal parking is rampant. DCC's own parking enforcement department admits to not enforcing pavement parking as a policy in most cases. They're too lenient. Although, we need towing, not clamping.

Peregrine

JustAThought wrote: »

I doubt that hundreds of people spontaneously suddenly decided while the city was in lockdown and a killer plague roaming the streets to suddenly decide they all wanted a plaza - much more likely to be his staff under instructions as happens often in big organisations or a lobbying body. Keegan destroyed Dun Laoghaire, its lical businesses and passing trade, and then he spent a hundred million on a highly contraversial library and is working on ruining the businesses in the city centre and transport and working routes for the many who l need to access the city yet have no proper, frequent or reliable public transport to access it. I hope someone takes a judicial review on this and it triggers protests to the new government to control their staff who seem to think they can spend public money on vanity projects regardless of consequences and snub the state organisations there to protect against men like him.

If you bothered to read the plan, you'll notice that it's about a lot more than College Green. College Green is barely mentioned.

And as for the rest of your post, if that's the level of knowledge of local government functions I'm debating with, I'm out.

caff

Have a car but no desire to ever drive to the city centre. I use the luas bus or cycle in.
I know people who stay away from the city centre as they get out off due to all the traffic and cramped footpaths. Increased pedestrian area would attract more people to the city centre imo.

Hurrache

Peregrine wrote: »

If you bothered to read the plan, you'll notice that it's about a lot more than College Green. College Green is barely mentioned.

I skimmed through the report you printed elsewhere to see what it has to say about it, and like you say, it barely features.

However it's a talisman for the hysterics to centre around.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

RobAMerc wrote: »

Dublin city councils cycling fundamentalists led by Mr Keegan are now trying to use Covid as an excuse to force through the pedestrianization of College Green, under the pretense of safety for social distancing - this has to be one of the most cynical things Keegan and his Green friends have ever attempted, and is a clear indication they will stop at nothing.
Having the greens in power could potentially make matters even worse - SF are starting to look like the sane option !

I love when people get all emotional and aim for the shock! impact by using words like "fundamentalists" - always gives me the impression that the OP doesn't actually beleive what he's saying himself, so has to exaggerage the headline to something a bit more attention-grabbing.

I'm not a cyclist. This is an excellent and rational idea. Power to them.

Truthvader

Peregrine wrote: »

And what about it? Illegal parking is rampant. DCC's own parking enforcement department admits to not enforcing pavement parking as a policy in most cases. They're too lenient. Although, we need towing, not clamping.

Point was whether Keegan had a "secret" agenda.

Why don't you cycle into town? The place is empty. There is no issue with parking because no-one is in town. What is the first essential service Keegan re-introduces? Clamping.

Maybe empty some of the overflowing bins around Ringsend/Poolbeg where people walk or remove the abandoned "Road Works" from outside my house? Nope, who cares; get the clampers out asap. Essential

awec

It's a great plan and not before time. Absolutely no need for cars in the city centre.

Harry Palmr

caff wrote: »

Have a car but no desire to ever drive to the city centre. I use the luas bus or cycle in.
I know people who stay away from the city centre as they get out off due to all the traffic and cramped footpaths. Increased pedestrian area would attract more people to the city centre imo.

It's the old "bypass will kill the town" mentality at work still. Getting rid of traffic creates space for everything else. Any downturn is a failure of prep, planning and imagination not a lack of cars.

And I'm aware this topic, while universal, is in the Dublin City forum where there is by far the greatest number of viable alternatives to the private car.

thegetawaycar

I have no issue with pedestrianising college green, I'd consider it a sensible approach.
Get as many cars out of the city centre as possible and certainly don't have cars running through it to get to the other side of the city. Footfall tends to increase sales as opposed to car access.
I would say, if we are going to pedestrianise more of the city then we should have large car parks outside the city with frequent public transport from them.

listermint

thegetawaycar wrote: »

I have no issue with pedestrianising college green, I'd consider it a sensible approach.
Get as many cars out of the city centre as possible and certainly don't have cars running through it to get to the other side of the city. Footfall tends to increase sales as opposed to car access.
I would say, if we are going to pedestrianise more of the city then we should have large car parks outside the city with frequent public transport from them.

We need large free parking across all satellite counties and suburbs or close to serviced by regular, tracked bus systems. It should take 40 mins or under to get right into the heart of dublin. That should be the goal.

Big Gerry

The green head the balls are clueless when it comes to economics or how the real world works.

ted1

subpar wrote: »

What city centre retail and traders need post lockdown is free parking till year end to bring customers back and save their businesses and jobs. This is not the time to be making it more diificult for people to get into the city. Dublin is a sprawling city stretching from Skerries in the North to Bray in the South and Naas in the West. People need a car to access the city centre . Making it harder from them to do so will only force them to use the M50 Retail Parks and lead to an empty and dead city for retailers.

No, people can access by LUAS, DART, Bus, Bike, Feet, Taxi, Or by car.

People do not need a car. Traffic deters people from shopping in town. There’s a reason why the pedestrianised streets like Grafton street and Henry street are the busiest. Look at George’s street and O’Connell street. Neither support retail.

L1011

subpar wrote: »

What city centre retail and traders need post lockdown is free parking till year end to bring customers back and save their businesses and jobs. This is not the time to be making it more diificult for people to get into the city. Dublin is a sprawling city stretching from Skerries in the North to Bray in the South and Naas in the West. People need a car to access the city centre . Making it harder from them to do so will only force them to use the M50 Retail Parks and lead to an empty and dead city for retailers.

Because Grafton Street just died on its arse and never recovered after pedestrianisation of course.

What, it has the 13th most expensive retail rents in the world? :eek:

Truthvader

ted1 wrote: »

No, people can access by LUAS, DART, Bus, Bike, Feet, Taxi, Or by car.

People do not need a car. Traffic deters people from shopping in town. There’s a reason why the pedestrianised streets like Grafton street and Henry street are the busiest. Look at George’s street and O’Connell street. Neither support retail.

Or they can drive to Dundrum and park their car ready to load their shopping when they are finished instead of waiting in the rain for a filthy bus with a hostile driver who wont give you change or a trip in A Luas filled with junkies and feral youth or the long cycle home with you new ironing Board.

L1011

Truthvader wrote: »

Or they can drive to Dundrum and park their car ready to load their shopping when they are finished instead of waiting in the rain for a filthy bus with a hostile driver who wont give you change or a trip in A Luas filled with junkies and feral youth or the long cycle home with you new ironing Board.

You may want to note that the protesting traders do not, with the possibly exception of Arnotts, sell ironing boards. And the Arnotts ones would be of a premium type you'd just get delivered, even from Arnotts.

People don't go to the city centre to do food shopping or hardware shopping unless they already live there.

awec

Truthvader wrote: »

Or they can drive to Dundrum and park their car ready to load their shopping when they are finished instead of waiting in the rain for a filthy bus with a hostile driver who wont give you change or a trip in A Luas filled with junkies and feral youth or the long cycle home with you new ironing Board.

Who goes into the city centre to buy an ironing board?

I remember some of the other nonsense posted when this idea was first mooted. "OMG HOW AM I GOING TO BRING MY NEW TV HOME ON THE BUS?!?!!?!"

Hurrache

Truthvader wrote: »

you new ironing Board.

Who the hell travels into the city to buy an ironing board?

Truthvader

Hurrache wrote: »

Who the hell travels into the city to buy an ironing board?

That's the point. No-one goes into town to buy anything except drink or drugs.

Hurrache

Truthvader wrote: »

That's the point. No-one goes into town to buy anything except drink or drugs.

Sure they're hardly going to be driving so. Problem solved by your own logic, no need for cars at all.

L1011

Truthvader wrote: »

That's the point. No-one goes into town to buy anything except drink or drugs.

What, precisely, draws retailers (not selling ironing boards, at that) to pay the 13th highest retail rents in the world for Grafton Street then?

You aren't really making a coherent argument across your own posts.

Muahahaha

Truthvader wrote: »

Same old same old.Dublin City Council/ Greens will embrace any idea that punishes car owners regardless of consequences. They have no other policy. Keegan destroyed all retail business in Dun Laoghaire and it never recovered from him

I often see this argument mentioned, mainly in the Journal comments and wonder is it true.

I would have thought that Dundrum Shopping Centre is what effects Dun Laoighires retail offering which mainly consists of an old and dated shopping centre with very small retail units. Retail has moved on in the last 20 years and the likes of the House of Fraser were never going to set up in DL because retail units there were nowhere near big enough to carry their vast range of stock.

Last time I was in DL on a Sunday it was absolutely mobbed with daytrippers enjoying the pier. But walk through the shopping centre and there are no shops in there that would drive footfall into it. The things people want are all up in Dundrum. Its not Owen Keegans fault that all these big brands want to be in a modern shopping centre with large units to sell their product ranges.

tricky D

Truthvader wrote: »

That's the point. No-one goes into town to buy anything except drink or drugs.

Don't post on this thread again until you are able to adhere to the charter, specifically the last item.

Do not respond to this message on thread.

Ballso

Gas thread. I live in the city centre, have a car and would support pedestrianisation of college green.

The city doesn't exist to cater to people who are so adamant on owning their own property that they bought a house in Arklow and drive in and out every day. The cities residents should come first.

ted1

Truthvader wrote: »

Or they can drive to Dundrum and park their car ready to load their shopping when they are finished instead of waiting in the rain for a filthy bus with a hostile driver who wont give you change or a trip in A Luas filled with junkies and feral youth or the long cycle home with you new ironing Board.

I prefer going into town , doing shopping having a pint and getting DART home along the coast.

Do any shop in Dundrum sell Ironing boards?

ted1

Truthvader wrote: »

That's the point. No-one goes into town to buy anything except drink or drugs.

Do BT, Arnotts, Grafton Street, All it’s side streets , powerscourt , Liffey street, Henry street, king a Street, etc are full of shops that no one shops in ?

1 sheep2

I am a strong proponent of pedestrianising College Green, as well as making the streets between George's Street and Grafton street a 'shared space' for cars and pedestrians. But even I am uncomfortable with how these measures have been forced through. It is utterly disingenuous to argue that these changes are essential for health reasons or that cycle lanes are now essential when there has never been less traffic.

Italian restaurants are required to have at least a metre distance between diners. In this country, there is an hysterical belief that walking within two metres of someone on the footpath is irresponsible.

lawred2

RobAMerc wrote: »

Dublin city councils cycling fundamentalists led by Mr Keegan are now trying to use Covid as an excuse to force through the pedestrianization of College Green, under the pretense of safety for social distancing - this has to be one of the most cynical things Keegan and his Green friends have ever attempted, and is a clear indication they will stop at nothing.
Having the greens in power could potentially make matters even worse - SF are starting to look like the sane option !

positive I think you meant

lawred2

Can you imagine fighting the cause for cars in city centres?