The Soulsborne combat debate

Temptamperu

Temptamperu wrote: »

While I like the idea the exploration the setting I cant get past the repetitive combat.

I think that's the crux of it for me amongst other things.

Bloodborne started off quite good. Well ignoring the initial section where you can't level up. It's kinda funny. That part was like an homage to the fandom surrounding these games. It won't let you level up, it doesn't even tell you how to level up. Gives you long section with a hoard of enemies, fast dogs and those twin wolves. A big FU to new players. Anyone entirely unfamiliar with the games would surely be put off without knowing you have to reach the first boss. I had to google it (and ask here) before deciding to run to the boss. I wrongly assumed I couldn't outrun those twin wolves at first. Grand, now I can level up; each run doesn't feel like a waste. That whole area is like a microcosm of DS culture. You don't get it, we do; git gud scrub. I found it very interesting from a meta point of view, intentionally or otherwise.

It starts brilliantly by ditching the shield imo. Replacing it with a gun is a stroke of genius. The most satisfying parts of the other games are landing a parry. Hiding behind a shield is slow, methodical and boring. Straight off the bat it's asking you to be more aggressive. This is doubled down with regenerating your health by riposting quickly. Really impressed so far. A blunderbuss too. That goofy gun along the pirate hat is a good look.

The upgrade system is great too. Very stream-lined. Hard to go wrong. Other DS games had a stupid amount of options that were also expensive so you felt you couldn't even experiment.

I was hoping to take to BB as it's allegedly the best in the series but I haven't caught the bug. I tried to keep an open mind but I lasted even less time than I did with the other souls games. I made it as far as just after the machine gun guy. 6 hours in according to the clock (but I think some of that is afk time). Sekiro is by far the best imo.

The world is straight up - forgive me, we're definitely going to disagree here - boring. They all are in DS games. I think this is a huge problem I have with this series (bar sekiro). A bunch of grim castles cobbled together. There is a sense that something once happened here, but it's not happening anymore. People harp on about the incredible design but it's never hit that tone for me. Story in BB is almost non-existent as you'd expect, although it at least feels better than usual as your in the middle of some kind of night hunt. It's alive as opposed to entering a world where all this stuff already happened. Not enough for me. I need a lot more going on in single player games to drive me on.

BB felt like DS3 all of a sudden. Go to new area, learn enemies, kill them; rince and repeat. I felt like I figured it out far too early. Figuring out the AI is slow and methodical. It's not hard. It's just not that fun. I had no desire to push on and repeat the chore all of a sudden. In fact I feel these games encourage you to take it slow and methodical. Bait one enemy at a time down a corridor. Repeat ad nauseam. These games are only hard if you run out and take everyone on. Although BB is does allow this to a degree. Anytime I felt cocky and pushed through, that's when I'd die. I feel like I can already see what this game has to offer. That challenge is boring. I play a ton of multiplayer games. Nothing is more challenging than a human opponent. You can't fully predict a human player like you can ai. What else is left if the world and story don't interest you. Bottom line is I'm not enjoying it so why bother. Hence I'm tapping out.

Also it's definitely not because I'm bad. I beat Father Gasgoine on my second attempt. I luckily picked my initial strategy to dodge into enemies which is essential for Gasgoine's second form. Something I learned from Sekiro I think.

The funny thing is that I will try the next iteration of From Software's games. People love them so much and Sekrio did work for me. Shame BB was too similar to the DS series. And with all that in mind... best game of the decade. I can think of 100 better games :pac:

I'll add that I managed to play BB by discovering PlayStationNow. I didn't spend any money so don't feel the need to get my money's worth. I initially wanted to play FF7 remake but it's not on it. The Last of Us is there so I'd prefer to see what that's all about rather than continue with BB.

nix

Theres a vendor you can spend insight on in the hunters dream, its out a small doorway on a ledge above the blood echoes vendor.

There are pros to having higher insight and also cons, it doesnt change much though to be honest, so i wouldnt read into it too much, but if you want an easier play through, keep your insight below 15, certain mobs wont spawn then and other mobs wont gain an additional attack.

The amount of mobs effected by it and additional mobs that spawn, really isnt any cause for alarm, so dont pay it much mind to be honest.

The other changes aren't gameplay altering, just some additional sounds here and there, that to be honest, i hadnt noticed and didnt know about until i checked the insight page on wiki..

johnny_ultimate

Funny enough I’d say the world of Bloodborne feels the most ‘alive’ of any of the Souls games (Sekiro excepted, which is obviously the most action-packed of them all). The way the world morphs transforms to increasingly twisted degrees is great - a few times you return to hub areas and everything has become this darker, more Lovecraftian nightmare because of what’s unfolding. Still a lot of traditional Souls storytelling and mysterious lore to dig into (although IMO the most interesting to read up on, because I much prefer Yarnham and its various grotesque afflictions to the traditional DS-style fantasy).

But yeah the game is like an escalating nightmare, and I even really like the extended Hunt setpiece that kicks the game off as something that feels like a more lively, unfolding situation that the sort of ancient decay that defines DS. God, I’d happily pay €60 for a 60FPS update of BB without a second’s hesitation - truly From’s masterpiece as far as I’m concerned.

TitianGerm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think that's the crux of it for me amongst other things.

Bloodborne started off quite good. Well ignoring the initial section where you can't level up. It's kinda funny. That part was like an homage to the fandom surrounding these games. It won't let you level up, it doesn't even tell you how to level up. Gives you long section with a hoard of enemies, fast dogs and those twin wolves. A big FU to new players. Anyone entirely unfamiliar with the games would surely be put off without knowing you have to reach the first boss. I had to google it (and ask here) before deciding to run to the boss. I wrongly assumed I couldn't outrun those twin wolves at first. Grand, now I can level up; each run doesn't feel like a waste. That whole area is like a microcosm of DS culture. You don't get it, we do; git gud scrub. I found it very interesting from a meta point of view, intentionally or otherwise.

It starts brilliantly by ditching the shield imo. Replacing it with a gun is a stroke of genius. The most satisfying parts of the other games are landing a parry. Hiding behind a shield is slow, methodical and boring. Straight off the bat it's asking you to be more aggressive. This is doubled down with regenerating your health by riposting quickly. Really impressed so far. A blunderbuss too. That goofy gun along the pirate hat is a good look.

The upgrade system is great too. Very stream-lined. Hard to go wrong. Other DS games had a stupid amount of options that were also expensive so you felt you couldn't even experiment.

I was hoping to take to BB as it's allegedly the best in the series but I haven't caught the bug. I tried to keep an open mind but I lasted even less time than I did with the other souls games. I made it as far as just after the machine gun guy. 6 hours in according to the clock (but I think some of that is afk time). Sekiro is by far the best imo.

The world is straight up - forgive me, we're definitely going to disagree here - boring. They all are in DS games. I think this is a huge problem I have with this series (bar sekiro). A bunch of grim castles cobbled together. There is a sense that something once happened here, but it's not happening anymore. People harp on about the incredible design but it's never hit that tone for me. Story in BB is almost non-existent as you'd expect, although it at least feels better than usual as your in the middle of some kind of night hunt. It's alive as opposed to entering a world where all this stuff already happened. Not enough for me. I need a lot more going on in single player games to drive me on.

BB felt like DS3 all of a sudden. Go to new area, learn enemies, kill them; rince and repeat. I felt like I figured it out far too early. Figuring out the AI is slow and methodical. It's not hard. It's just not that fun. I had no desire to push on and repeat the chore all of a sudden. In fact I feel these games encourage you to take it slow and methodical. Bait one enemy at a time down a corridor. Repeat ad nauseam. These games are only hard if you run out and take everyone on. Although BB is does allow this to a degree. Anytime I felt cocky and pushed through, that's when I'd die. I feel like I can already see what this game has to offer. That challenge is boring. I play a ton of multiplayer games. Nothing is more challenging than a human opponent. You can't fully predict a human player like you can ai. What else is left if the world and story don't interest you. Bottom line is I'm not enjoying it so why bother. Hence I'm tapping out.

Also it's definitely not because I'm bad. I beat Father Gasgoine on my second attempt. I luckily picked my initial strategy to dodge into enemies which is essential for Gasgoine's second form. Something I learned from Sekiro I think.

The funny thing is that I will try the next iteration of From Software's games. People love them so much and Sekrio did work for me. Shame BB was too similar to the DS series. And with all that in mind... best game of the decade. I can think of 100 better games :pac:

I'll add that I managed to play BB by discovering PlayStationNow. I didn't spend any money so don't feel the need to get my money's worth. I initially wanted to play FF7 remake but it's not on it. The Last of Us is there so I'd prefer to see what that's all about rather than continue with BB.

When you say you got to the guy with the machine gun did you fight any bosses between going there and fighting Fr Gasgoine? It's ages since I played BB so trying to remember.

Did you just get stuck there because it got harder or just had enough?

petes

Think I'll play BB again the weekend!

Penn

TitianGerm wrote: »

When you say you got to the guy with the machine gun did you fight any bosses between going there and fighting Fr Gasgoine? It's ages since I played BB so trying to remember.

Did you just get stuck there because it got harder or just had enough?

I went through that section last night, didn't come across any bosses. Two pretty big dudes alright along the way, but not bosses. Machine Gun dude sucks ass. Not even sure if you're supposed to fight that guy at this stage. Tried twice and got savaged because he turns around once you come off the ladder anyway, so after that I just run through that entire section. Have shortcuts opened to mostly avoid him now.

gimli2112

There'a a way of cheesing him. It involved knocking him off the roof. I think you pretend to be on his side by not killing anything on your way to him and surprise him as you're talking with him.

Penn

nix wrote: »

Theres a vendor you can spend insight on in the hunters dream, its out a small doorway on a ledge above the blood echoes vendor.

There are pros to having higher insight and also cons, it doesnt change much though to be honest, so i wouldnt read into it too much, but if you want an easier play through, keep your insight below 15, certain mobs wont spawn then and other mobs wont gain an additional attack.

The amount of mobs effected by it and additional mobs that spawn, really isnt any cause for alarm, so dont pay it much mind to be honest.

The other changes aren't gameplay altering, just some additional sounds here and there, that to be honest, i hadnt noticed and didnt know about until i checked the insight page on wiki..

Think I have it around 13 or 14 after using a few Madmans Knowledges, but I know it increases after defeating bosses so I'll just leave it as is and see how I get on. Don't mind the game being a bit harder or few more enemies if I can get more blood echoes from it anyway.

McFly85

Penn wrote: »

I went through that section last night, didn't come across any bosses. Two pretty big dudes alright along the way, but not bosses. Machine Gun dude sucks ass. Not even sure if you're supposed to fight that guy at this stage. Tried twice and got savaged because he turns around once you come off the ladder anyway, so after that I just run through that entire section. Have shortcuts opened to mostly avoid him now.

I got lucky with this guy, a well timed dodge and he fell off the roof!

TitianGerm

gimli2112 wrote: »

There'a a way of cheesing him. It involved knocking him off the roof. I think you pretend to be on his side by not killing anything on your way to him and surprise him as you're talking with him.

You have to enter the area from another direction for that to happen. He doesn't spot you and never opens fire on you which allows you talk to him.

Penn

TitianGerm wrote: »

You have to enter the area from another direction for that to happen. He doesn't spot you and never opens fire on you which allows you talk to him.

Nice, might try that. Have that other way open (I presume, long ladder where there was a locked gate beside the building he's on).

TitianGerm

Penn wrote: »

Nice, might try that. Have that other way open (I presume, long ladder where there was a locked gate beside the building he's on).

No when you're running towards him as you first enter the area and get below him with his building on your left you'll see a locked gate in front of you. You need to enter Old Yharnam through that locked gate to not agro Djura (think that was his name).

Think that gate is only opened later in the game.

Penn

TitianGerm wrote: »

No when you're running towards him as you first enter the area and get below him with his building on your left you'll see a locked gate in front of you. You need to enter Old Yharnam through that locked gate to not agro Djura (think that was his name).

Think that gate is only opened later in the game.

Sorry, that's where I meant. Long ladder up from the bottom of Old Yarnham (where there's a bunch of beasts) to open that locked gate, then you have the long ladder up to the roof from there.

Lotta long ladders in the game

TitianGerm

Penn wrote: »

Sorry, that's where I meant. Long ladder up from the bottom of Old Yarnham (where there's a bunch of beasts) to open that locked gate, then you have the long ladder up to the roof from there.

Lotta long ladders in the game

That's not Old Yarnham down there though is it? Unless I'm getting mixed up you have to beat Darkbeast Paarl to get to that area.

Penn

TitianGerm wrote: »

That's not Old Yarnham down there though is it? Unless I'm getting mixed up you have to beat Darkbeast Paarl to get to that area.

Just looked at a map, the entrance to that Darkbeast Paarl is after the ladder up to the locked gate (I either came through entrance A and the ladder is entrance B or vice versa), but I can now enter the area from the shortcut through entrance C (a building with a spiral staircase) and get to the ladder that way. I did get to the entrance to Darkbeast Paarl but messages on the ground warned not to go through so I said I'd leave it until after the blood starved beast, because it wasn't familiar to me from my previous playthrough.

https://bloodborne.wiki.fextralife.com/file/Bloodborne/old_yharnam_map2.jpg

Retr0gamer

Dark Beast Paarl is very difficult at low level and entirely optional. Come back later.

Penn

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Dark Beast Paarl is very difficult at low level and entirely optional. Come back later.

Yeah never too sure how trustworthy some of the messages on the ground are, but they all seemed fairly definitive in warning so said I'd leave it for now.

nix

Deleted User wrote: »

Bloodborne started off quite good.

You quit playing after the second boss, what makes BB so good is the boss fights, they do a good job of keeping each fight fresh and new and get the blood pumping, everything else in between is just exploring the nightmare/story and helping to fine tune your character.

You could say the same about DS, but BB does a much better job on the world building and bosses. In fact, BB and Sekiro and some of DS boss fights are the only games that can get my heart pounding outside of multiplayer games.

But yeah if you find it boring then, fair do's, you gave it a chance, instead of rage quitting on the tutorial :P

Retr0gamer

I love a good boos fight. Always loved them in Konami and Capcom games and other japanese games. And I was despairing in the PS360 era when there was a massive backlash against not only japanese games but also boss encounters. They weren't realistic, and were badly designed bullet sponges. And there was me in my little corner screaming that they are good it's just western companies didn't know how to design good ones. It was really strange hearing this off the back of the the PS1 and PS2 era that gave us so many great boss fights, hell God of War 2 was a western game that bookended that era and got them right.

I was so delighted when Demon's souls came out. Here was a game that understood great old school boss design and doubled down on it. It was vindication.

The best parts of Bloodborne are the gothic style towns and cityscapes. Tonnes of atmosphere too.

I hate the constant need for From Software to put these ****ty swamp / forest type levels in their games.

All the dark souls games had them too

Almost always in the middle of them too for padding

Retr0gamer

Can't agree more! I'm not sure why they do it. Maybe it's some weird homage to previous kings field games?

TitianGerm

TitianGerm wrote: »

When you say you got to the guy with the machine gun did you fight any bosses between going there and fighting Fr Gasgoine? It's ages since I played BB so trying to remember.

Did you just get stuck there because it got harder or just had enough?

I stopped in the area after the machine gun guy. I didn't get stuck. It just seemed too similar to DS and I'm bored of that gameplay loop.

petes

Jumped back in to BB today, opened up Old Yharnam and then ended getting beaten by Amelia but not by much. It was enough for today though

Brozy

Okay so, took my time going through blightown. Beat Queleg on my first go, which felt great. So wasn't sure where to go, so kept going down and bet that lava Octopus thing and then lava drained. Went down and got hammered by the double meat cleaver lad. Went back and bet him... just about. Got my souls. There's a path behind him or on the left there's a heap of huge assholes, and I got wrecked. So, my question is, where should I go next? I can hear a bell ringing, so I'm guessing I'm in the right spot

Retr0gamer

You've rung the two bells so I think sens fortress is now open.

Brozy

Okay, I've missed the second bell somewhere so. I'll go back and have a look. Actually saw a lever just after Quelaag but thought it was for an elevator.

TitianGerm

Brozy wrote: »

Okay, I've missed the second bell somewhere so. I'll go back and have a look. Actually saw a lever just after Quelaag but thought it was for an elevator.

Yea there's a lever above Quelaags lair.

Penn

Think I have no real choice but to go for Vicar Amelia next. Have done the area that leads to the Witches of Hemwick (which was a pretty easy fight), and also did part of the path the other side of the cathedral which lead to some giant space ghost thing killing me pretty much instantly, which google says is best left until I beat some spider and then I can see the thing and beat it.

I might venture back to the gaol area first though. Decent bit stronger now. Also not sure if there's NPC stuff I'm supposed to be doing. I have an old cranky woman brought back to the Cathedral as well as, what I assume is the Bloodborne equivalent of a prostitute. I brought the brooch from the corpse in the Father Gascoigne area back to the small child but nothing happened after (and met another hunter while fighting another hunter (Henrik)). Pretty much all other NPCs in windows I think just repeat the same lines over and over, so I don't think there's more I can or have to do there.

Retr0gamer

Vicar Amelia is a great boss fight. Once you beat her the game shouldn't trouble you too much besides the DLC.

Penn

Ah, meant to post in the Bloodborne thread, but no matter.

Yeah finding things a good bit easier, still dying a bit here and there but have levelled up a fair chunk. Switching between Hunters Axe for strong enemies and Saw Cleaver for weaker enemies/mobs is working well.

My only concern at this point is I'm barely even considering using the gun. I've used it so little that it's just not in my muscle memory to even try it, and I'm sure there'll be some bosses or enemies where it'd make things a hell of a lot easier. The timing for it just seems so off. Half the time I shoot too early, the rest I hit it, but still get hit by the enemy and can't capitalise on it.