The Soulsborne combat debate

nix

Man.. blight town sucks, probably my most hated zones in all of Soulsborne :mad::pac:

Doctor Nick

nix wrote: »

Man.. blight town sucks, probably my most hated zones in all of Soulsborne :mad::pac:

Ah it's not that bad. First time through it is a pain in the arse alright especially on the original release where the game turned into a slideshow. Once I l had an idea of where to go, and where the toxic dart blowing snipers were located, it actually became one of my favourite areas. It's like a vertical maze or something.

Oh and Blighttown is like a trip to Disneyland when compared to Valley of Defilement part 2 from Demons Souls.

Brozy

Down to €15 again on PSN so taking the plunge. Only about 7gbs so should be playing soon.

Wish me luck!

TitianGerm

TitianGerm wrote: »

No didn't kill any boss in Blightown. There was a nest thing that I didn't go into that I'm assuming the boss is in but I wanted to explore up the wooden wheel before I went in there to fight the boss and that's how I ended up back at Firelink.

Up to Ornstein and Smoug now but only had two goes at them before I had to turn off. Have the Uchigatana up to +10 so hopefully I can get through them.

McFly85

Drudging this one back up as I was convinced to try Bloodborne because of this thread, and I’ve just seen the credits roll on my first playthrough.

What a game. I loved pretty much everything about it, the setting, the music, the exploration, and yes, also the combat!

Looking back though, I can see why players who start will think it’s not for them early on. It’s very unforgiving at the beginning, and doing the same small area again and again could feel like a chore. Also it probably hasn’t clicked at that point how the game will progress(exploration is EXTREMELY important), and with Father Gascoigne being an extremely tough boss, you could feel like the whole game it going to be one massive painful slog.

But it really isn’t. After getting through Central Yharnam, I can honestly say that there was never a moment after that where I felt truly stuck. If there was ever a boss that was destroying me or an area that I couldn’t get through, there was always somewhere else to explore or something else to do. Also I found even exploring old areas and collecting souls to level up to be fairly relaxing.

I think the game truly begins after Central Yharnam, and if you’ve played it and decided after a couple of hours it’s not for you, I would implore you to vote it another chance and try to get past that area and get into the game proper, I can guarantee that it will be worth it.

Retr0gamer

Yes, yes.... Another convert to the dark side right side of history.

Penn

Thinking of giving it another shot alright. Have already re-downloaded it. I was enjoying it the last time, got past some sniper d*ckhead and to a boss in a church, but gave up. I found I was playing it more just to play it rather than wanting to progress. Might give it another try, start afresh.

gimli2112

The Church Boss is tough, largely because it comes so early in the game.

If you can beat him you are a hunter and will be able to complete the game. I can say this with certainty because I did and I set the bar pretty low.

Penn

gimli2112 wrote: »

The Church Boss is tough, largely because it comes so early in the game.

If you can beat him you are a hunter and will be able to complete the game. I can say this with certainty because I did and I set the bar pretty low.

I don't even think I got stuck on him as such, I think I only fought him maybe twice. My interest was just kind of waning at that point anyway and I wanted to move on to something else.

Brozy

Lads, I love this game.

Potential-Monke

I think I figured out over the week why these games really are not for me. I don't play games to just barely survive, I play them to be the badass I'm not in real life. I use it to escape, and enjoy myself. Making it harder will take away from that enjoyment.

For example, NBA 2K20, I play on Pro, because I want to be the Superstar, I don't want to be the person who comes off the bench and scores a few baskets. I'm the dunk king in my rookie year. I'm the highest PPG in my rookie year. That's fun. That's enjoyable. I remember when I first started modern basketball games with NBA 2K16, and the first "year" (in-game) I was terrible, learning the mechanics and how to shoot, etc. Second year I had found my feet and was playing good. I upped the difficulty to see what it's like and I was back to square 1 (mainly because 85 OVR is not good enough at higher difficulties). So I dropped it back down and became the King. That's fun.

I know ye obviously prefer the challenge, but I don't. Souls games make me work hard to be good, and I really don't enjoy it. A more recent example is the meh Outer Worlds. I didn't remember until I was a bit in, but the consensus was that medium difficulty was too easy. And it is. I pretty much don't even have to shoot and I'll beat most battles (I'm maxxed level and just got into the PONR). But if I upped the difficulty I'd probably stop playing, because the game isn't good enough to make me want to repeat sections because I died. I'm literally playing to see how the story pans out.

Souls games don't have enough of a story (for me) to want to stick with them, so I move on to the next game that makes me the hero. They remind me too much of life, and I get enough of that as is. I play to enjoy, and I don't enjoy repeating things over and over, which is what you do in Souls games until you 'git gud'. Meh.

Retr0gamer

I think souls games definitely make you feel like a bad ass. I also think the effect is far more pronounced than in other easier games that pretty much play themselves. The thing is you have to work hard to be that bad ass in souls bourne and when you finally become that bad ass and over come that boss it feels so much more rewarding because you had to put the effort in to learn to over come those trials.

There's nothing like starting a new game + of a souls game and realising how easy it actually is because you've grown so much as a player.

Potential-Monke

See, that just sounds too much like real life. That's not why I play games.

TitianGerm

Potential-Monke wrote: »

See, that just sounds too much like real life. That's not why I play games.

It seems your more into participation trophies for everyone whereas most others here prefer to earn their own trophies.

No shame in that, just a different out look.

I'm finding the genre tired and the market is now oversaturated with 'souls' type games

The peak of this type of this type of game was Bloodborne for me (brilliant)

After that it's lost it's spark. Dark souls 3 was meh

Sekiro was decent enough for a while then got bored (poor performance and response here too)

I get the same feeling as I do playing a fallout type game now like The Outer Worlds

I'm tired of the formula and I just get bored

If I were ever to get back into it it would be for a Bloodborne PC port so it could be played at 60fps

McFly85

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I think I figured out over the week why these games really are not for me. I don't play games to just barely survive, I play them to be the badass I'm not in real life. I use it to escape, and enjoy myself. Making it harder will take away from that enjoyment.

For example, NBA 2K20, I play on Pro, because I want to be the Superstar, I don't want to be the person who comes off the bench and scores a few baskets. I'm the dunk king in my rookie year. I'm the highest PPG in my rookie year. That's fun. That's enjoyable. I remember when I first started modern basketball games with NBA 2K16, and the first "year" (in-game) I was terrible, learning the mechanics and how to shoot, etc. Second year I had found my feet and was playing good. I upped the difficulty to see what it's like and I was back to square 1 (mainly because 85 OVR is not good enough at higher difficulties). So I dropped it back down and became the King. That's fun.

I know ye obviously prefer the challenge, but I don't. Souls games make me work hard to be good, and I really don't enjoy it. A more recent example is the meh Outer Worlds. I didn't remember until I was a bit in, but the consensus was that medium difficulty was too easy. And it is. I pretty much don't even have to shoot and I'll beat most battles (I'm maxxed level and just got into the PONR). But if I upped the difficulty I'd probably stop playing, because the game isn't good enough to make me want to repeat sections because I died. I'm literally playing to see how the story pans out.

Souls games don't have enough of a story (for me) to want to stick with them, so I move on to the next game that makes me the hero. They remind me too much of life, and I get enough of that as is. I play to enjoy, and I don't enjoy repeating things over and over, which is what you do in Souls games until you 'git gud'. Meh.

I get it, and I suppose if you consider any game hard work you’ll probably not want to play it, but progression in these games isn’t just getting to the next area or furthering the story. Progression in your ability is a major thing, and honestly this is something that can really be done at your own pace. I would be happy with any session even if it was just getting enough souls to level up once.

I think what I’ve found from Bloodborne more than any other game is that there is joy to be found from continuously losing.

Potential-Monke

McFly85 wrote: »

I think what I’ve found from Bloodborne more than any other game is that there is joy to be found from continuously losing.

I don't get that at all. Losing isn't fun, especially in gaming (for me).

TitianGerm wrote: »

It seems your more into participation trophies for everyone whereas most others here prefer to earn their own trophies.

I get a bang of elitism from that statement! :pac:

Mr Crispy

Penn

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I think I figured out over the week why these games really are not for me. I don't play games to just barely survive, I play them to be the badass I'm not in real life. I use it to escape, and enjoy myself. Making it harder will take away from that enjoyment.

For example, NBA 2K20, I play on Pro, because I want to be the Superstar, I don't want to be the person who comes off the bench and scores a few baskets. I'm the dunk king in my rookie year. I'm the highest PPG in my rookie year. That's fun. That's enjoyable. I remember when I first started modern basketball games with NBA 2K16, and the first "year" (in-game) I was terrible, learning the mechanics and how to shoot, etc. Second year I had found my feet and was playing good. I upped the difficulty to see what it's like and I was back to square 1 (mainly because 85 OVR is not good enough at higher difficulties). So I dropped it back down and became the King. That's fun.

I know ye obviously prefer the challenge, but I don't. Souls games make me work hard to be good, and I really don't enjoy it. A more recent example is the meh Outer Worlds. I didn't remember until I was a bit in, but the consensus was that medium difficulty was too easy. And it is. I pretty much don't even have to shoot and I'll beat most battles (I'm maxxed level and just got into the PONR). But if I upped the difficulty I'd probably stop playing, because the game isn't good enough to make me want to repeat sections because I died. I'm literally playing to see how the story pans out.

Souls games don't have enough of a story (for me) to want to stick with them, so I move on to the next game that makes me the hero. They remind me too much of life, and I get enough of that as is. I play to enjoy, and I don't enjoy repeating things over and over, which is what you do in Souls games until you 'git gud'. Meh.

I get what you mean. For me its a bit like the Devil May Cry games. They're easy and simple enough that you can feel like an absolute badass. But when it comes to the harder difficulties, the level of skill and precision it can take just makes it not worth the effort a lot of time, as it'll be more frustrating than enjoyable. But... if you did persevere, you'd be beyond a level of badass and destroying everything in seconds.

With the Soulsborne games, they're almost a bit of a middle ground in that there's no normal mode where you can still feel like a badass with just a medium level of skill, but they're also not as difficult as the hardest difficulties. So they definitely require a lot of effort and once the gameplay clicks you can dodge/block/parry your way through almost everything with ease (bar larger bosses), but they do require that initial effort to get there. It took me a while with Sekiro but once you do get to the point where it clicks, you do start feeling like a badass. Dying to an enemy multiple times is frustrating and annoying, but when you learn their attacks, start blocking them and then manage to take them down, the reward and the feeling of being a badass is definitely beyond the likes of the same feeling I've had from taking down giant monster bosses in DMC after just two or three attempts.

Each has their value though, and it depends on how much the gameplay and story are interesting you.

TitianGerm

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I get a bang of elitism from that statement! :pac:

I'm playing through Dark Souls for the first time now. It's not hard at all. I've killed all the bosses bar Ornstein and Smoug with little to no trouble. O&S took about 15 goes.

Shiminay

I've been trying to play that Star Wars game but the whole thing is just so frustrating for me. I hate this sort of combat and I hate this sort of game - I feel like this genre has no respect for my time and is just tedious for tedious' sake. That's just me though, I'm in my 40's and I'm not interested in fiddly frame-perfect anything in any game I play. I don't play those spectacle fighter things like Bayonetta, nor MOBAs like DOTA for the same reasons. It's all part of getting old

Lots of people love this and lots of people have the hand-eye coordination and patience to play these sorts of things well and I would never begrudge anyone their fun - it's not like the existence of these games is any sort of threat. I'm very frustrated that there's some cool Star Wars content that I can't enjoy though, I have loved Star Wars for 35 years but even that can't get me past the raw rage I feel when trying to play this game even on the lowest of low settings.

nix

pffft, age has nothing to do with it, its all down to the person.

People who slam these games, more often than not bring up a "it takes too much time to learn" point and then they go off and sink twice as much time into a game like Assassins creed or something.. So the reality is its not a time thing, its a competitive thing, you either relish a challenge as a source of entertainment or you dont, and prefer a heavy story and open world only that you can explore with ease and that's fine.

Me? I'LL HAVE IT ALL BABY! :pac:

johnny_ultimate

Also important to stress: Fallen Order is a bad Soulsborne game (plus a pretty weak Metroid game to boot)

Sekiro combat is demanding but rewarding - parrying and countering feels earned and consistent. Fallen Order just always felt a little off in that respect - and when something feels a little off in something as built around precision and accuracy, the whole thing feels apart. FO is a mediocre game (not without some plus points, such a decent SW story that finally kicked into the gear towards the end) that was a good reminder of just how talented From are with pulling off this type of gameplay.

Potential-Monke

It's not that it takes too much time to learn. It's just too frustrating for me. I've said it over and over, I get no enjoyment out of dying over and over (which apparently you eventually don't but there's still a die-to-learn mechanic to get to that point). Just not for me/not fun/too much like real life (disappointment after disappointment with added frustration).

McFly85

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I don't get that at all. Losing isn't fun, especially in gaming (for me).

What I mean is losing is progression. Nothing is unfairly difficult, you just need time to figure out what each enemy is doing and what to do to beat it. You just might die a few times while you figure it out!

Edit: and if it’s not for you, grand! The only reason I’m banging the drum is that since starting getting into it, which is only very recently, I’ve found that there’s a lot of people who have similar soulsborne stories. Tried it, hated it, tried it again on the basis of recommendation, ended up being one of their favourite games.

Potential-Monke

McFly85 wrote: »

What I mean is losing is progression. Nothing is unfairly difficult, you just need time to figure out what each enemy is doing and what to do to beat it. You just might die a few times while you figure it out!

Edit: and if it’s not for you, grand! The only reason I’m banging the drum is that since starting getting into it, which is only very recently, I’ve found that there’s a lot of people who have similar soulsborne stories. Tried it, hated it, tried it again on the basis of recommendation, ended up being one of their favourite games.

I've tried it enough times at this stage to know it's not for me. I've tried DS1 and 2, BB and the other similar games The Surge and Nioh. All the same, just not fun. The main issue I have with it is everyone who harps on about just not being good enough to play them. It's like if you don't like them there's something wrong with you, as evidenced on most pages of this thread (and even today). I'm willing to give Sekiro a go, once it comes down in price enough (not paying anything north of €10 to find out it's not for me again), simply because Sekiro looks like them but faster (the slowness annoys me too).

nix

Potential-Monke wrote: »

It's not that it takes too much time to learn. It's just too frustrating for me. I've said it over and over, I get no enjoyment out of dying over and over (which apparently you eventually don't but there's still a die-to-learn mechanic to get to that point). Just not for me/not fun/too much like real life (disappointment after disappointment with added frustration).

But you dont die over and over, you just do at the start until you get to grips with the mechanics, then you can die as much as you do in a lot of other games the only real difference is you dont just respawn where you died.. Which is what i really think pisses people off the most, but thats just there stop people going around willy nilly..

McFly85

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I've tried it enough times at this stage to know it's not for me. I've tried DS1 and 2, BB and the other similar games The Surge and Nioh. All the same, just not fun. The main issue I have with it is everyone who harps on about just not being good enough to play them. It's like if you don't like them there's something wrong with you, as evidenced on most pages of this thread (and even today). I'm willing to give Sekiro a go, once it comes down in price enough (not paying anything north of €10 to find out it's not for me again), simply because Sekiro looks like them but faster (the slowness annoys me too).

Having only played Bloodborne(and since have stared Sekiro again after a first attempt last year) and being fairly rubbish at games myself, anyone who attaches elitism to playing these games is talking nonsense. There is a learning curve, as with any game, and these ones just happens to require you die to learn it.

If you don’t find it fun, fine, not for you! Nobody else should be able to tell you what to enjoy.

My issue is people being told these games are overly difficult which isn’t the case at all. And to be fair, most likely spread by the same people who think they are “elite” by completing them.

Potential-Monke

nix wrote: »

But you dont die over and over, you just do at the start until you get to grips with the mechanics, then you can die as much as you do in a lot of other games the only real difference is you dont just respawn where you died.. Which is what i really think pisses people off the most, but thats just there stop people going around willy nilly..

Ah now, players do die, a lot. It's also why one version is called Prepare to Die Edition. If you didn't die a lot, that would be a stupid phrase. Even fans of the series will say you die a lot and it is difficult. And yes, traipsing back through the same area killing the same enemies (or running past them, or exploring to find a shortcut which are still few and far between), all that will put me off a game. Not fun to me (and many others).

McFly85 wrote: »

My issue is people being told these games are overly difficult which isn’t the case at all. And to be fair, most likely spread by the same people who think they are “elite” by completing them.

But they are, until you've died enough to either like the game or hate it. Once you like something, you won't consider it hard because you're enjoying it. It's like codies saying learning C++ isn't hard, but it is if you've no idea what you're doing, and dipping you toes into it and finding out if it's for you or not, and if it is you'll learn more and eventually be one of the people who thinks it's not hard. Soulsborne are the same. Except that if you don't like it/call it hard, you're met with the "Git gud" arguments, and as you referenced, the elitism that goes with it.

You're not allowed to dislike the Soulsborne games unless you've put dozens of hours into it it appears. And if you do put dozens of hours into you, you'll like it (allegedly). There's no inbetween.

McFly85

Potential-Monke wrote: »

But they are, until you've died enough to either like the game or hate it. Once you like something, you won't consider it hard because you're enjoying it. It's like codies saying learning C++ isn't hard, but it is if you've no idea what you're doing, and dipping you toes into it and finding out if it's for you or not, and if it is you'll learn more and eventually be one of the people who thinks it's not hard. Soulsborne are the same. Except that if you don't like it/call it hard, you're met with the "Git gud" arguments, and as you referenced, the elitism that goes with it.

You're not allowed to dislike the Soulsborne games unless you've put dozens of hours into it it appears. And if you do put dozens of hours into you, you'll like it (allegedly). There's no inbetween.

The C++ thing is a false equivalence, as I would imagine there’s loads of things you’d need to learn to know how to code properly using it.

Bloodborne is learn enemy attack patterns, learn when to strike and when to dodge. That’s pretty much it. It’s more repetitive than difficult. And if you hate the repetition, completely understandable, but it’s not an insurmountable challenge that only a few people can manage.