The Soulsborne combat debate

Brozy

nix wrote: »

.. Until you have parrying down at least.. :P

Speaking of parrying, in Dark Souls does it become essential? I've been getting away with blocking and countering up to now. The reward is great but the risk is also great! As enemies change so much in different areas, I'm finding it hard to learn their move sets, except for the first few areas.

Retr0gamer

Brozy wrote: »

Speaking of parrying, in Dark Souls does it become essential? I've been getting away with blocking and countering up to now. The reward is great but the risk is also great! As enemies change so much in different areas, I'm finding it hard to learn their move sets, except for the first few areas.

Only time I needed it was the final boss. The final boss is very difficult until you realise he is a chump if you spam parries. Other than that it's not required.

johnny_ultimate

Don’t know if I ever parried across the DS games. Bloodborne heavily encourages parrying (hence Father Gascgoine) and Sekiro nigh on demands it.

Honestly, as someone who always played DS as a pyromancer / sorcerer... I always appreciated From for basically forcing me outside that play style for those two other games

Minime2.5

Retr0gamer wrote: »

It's not as challenging but it's also not as fun, rewarding or well designed as a Dark Souls game imo. Nothing wrong with bringing the souls type combat to a wider audience by making it more accessible but my issues with the game aren't that it's too easym it's that it just isn't as well designed as others in the genre. Enemy, level and combat design just aren't as good or deep as they should be and I think the Star Wars license forgave a lot of these issues for some people.

It's something that can be changed with a sequel and hopefully the star wars license will get more people into these games.

What do you think of Nioh. I loved DS 1 to 3 and Bloodborne but I couldn't take to Nioh at all . I find these games much tougher and couldn't figure out that Ki pulse thing at all

Minime2.5

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Don’t know if I ever parried across the DS games. Bloodborne heavily encourages parrying (hence Father Gascgoine) and Sekiro nigh on demands it.

Honestly, as someone who always played DS as a pyromancer / sorcerer... I always appreciated From for basically forcing me outside that play style for those two other games

Sekiro demands it but BB is quite easy to finish without ever parrying . I 2 hand the axe and never use the guns ever

Minime2.5

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Only time I needed it was the final boss. The final boss is very difficult until you realise he is a chump if you spam parries. Other than that it's not required.

He's easy with Iron Flesh

nix

Brozy wrote: »

Speaking of parrying, in Dark Souls does it become essential? I've been getting away with blocking and countering up to now. The reward is great but the risk is also great! As enemies change so much in different areas, I'm finding it hard to learn their move sets, except for the first few areas.

No you can go the whole game without using the parry system, but its alot easier to get down than Dark souls I found, i still dont really bother using Dark souls parry system, the window is too small and can easily result in death if you miss it..

johnny_ultimate

The problem I have with Nioh (good game!) and its ilk is they lack of sheer, all-in artistry of the From games. Souls games are mechanically robust and complex, but they’re also impeccably put together in terms of art design, sound, world building etc... As vague as the narratives often are, you nonetheless always feel as if you’re working your way through a world that makes internal sense (some allowances for design reasons aside). There’s this sense of progress, and a constant focus on mood and atmosphere.

Nioh is a cool game technically and enjoyable to play through, but it lacks that additional layer of artistry that elevates From’s work. Indeed, any Soulsborne game I’ve played outside of From’s work has similar problems - often fun to play, but never with that extra flair Miyazaki and co bring. It’s a very different game, but I reckon Hollow Knight is the one explicitly Souls-influenced game I’ve played that reaches very deep to achieve that extra layer.

Retr0gamer

Minime2.5 wrote: »

What do you think of Nioh. I loved DS 1 to 3 and Bloodborne but I couldn't take to Nioh at all . I find these games much tougher and couldn't figure out that Ki pulse thing at all

I enjoyed what I played but thought the weapon system was very Diablo and overly complex. I didn't get far though and was distracted by newer and shinier games.

Potential-Monke

(Please don't read this is an angry gamer voice, i'm not angry, just giving a reply!).

Ok, see, again Retr0, you're telling me it's ok to have different tastes, but I'm wrong about the Soulsborne games. What you find rewarding I don't, I think we've established that at this stage (across multiple games of different genres). But it's the insistence that I'm wrong in thinking the way I think that's the issue. You're telling me I'm wrong for not feeling the same way about the games you like. You think dying over and over is a learning mechanic that's enjoyable, I don't think it is. But I'm wrong in my own thoughts apparantly.

Why can't ye (the Soulsborne brigade) just accept that it's not for everyone? Why do we (the anti-Soulsborne bridage) have to be wrong in our thoughts? You mentioned films, the MCU which you rarely find rewarding, but in the same paragraph point to artistic films which I find absolutely dull and boring and full of pretentious shyte. Guess I'm wrong there also? No, I'm not. I just have different tastes. The mechanics of the Soulsborne games are anti-fun and anti-rewarding for me. Regardless of how long I play those games, I just get no enjoyment from them, and only frustration. It's not because I can't play the game, it's because the gameplay style is not what I like. But you keep insisting that I'm wrong in my own thoughts. That's the issue, not the game, not the difficulty or dying over and over, it's the elitism that comes with it, the 'better than thou' associated with being a fan of the genre, which does exist.

I would agree if I was dismissing the games entirely because they're 'too hard'. They are hard (regardless of your own biased opinion on them), and not everyone wants to play games like that. But we're wrong to think that way? You obviously look for things in games I don't, and you don't like things in games I do, but you feel the need to call them empty, shallow, unrewarding, and a host of other terms that (maybe unintended) put me and others down for not having the same wants, needs and appreciation that you have. You're basically saying I'm not good enough or smart enough to enjoy the complexities of the Soulsborne games. That's elitism, intended or not (it really doesn't come across as unintended though).

So again, you state that everyone has their own tastes, but we're wrong about Soulsborne games. It's up there with people saying that wearing labels is better than generic stuff.

Retr0gamer

You took me up wrong. Everyone has their own tastes but it's wrong to say Soulsbourne games are bad as a blanket statement because they equivalently aren't. Same way I wouldn't say a game that doesn't appeal to me is bad.

But it's the insistence that I'm wrong in thinking the way I think that's the issue. You're telling me I'm wrong for not feeling the same way about the games you like. You think dying over and over is a learning mechanic that's enjoyable, I don't think it is. But I'm wrong in my own thoughts apparantly.

The problem here is nearly every soulsbourne aficionado has known someone just like this that has said the same things and once we convince them to just give the games a bit more of a chance and the game finally clicks these games become some of their favourite games ever. It's not out of elitism. It's because we don't want people to be put of some of the best games ever made.

We've had plenty of recent converts on this very thread that have given the games more of a chance and let them click.

Potential-Monke wrote: »

You obviously look for things in games I don't, and you don't like things in games I do, but you feel the need to call them empty, shallow, unrewarding, and a host of other terms that (maybe unintended) put me and others down for not having the same wants, needs and appreciation that you have. You're basically saying I'm not good enough or smart enough to enjoy the complexities of the Soulsborne games. That's elitism, intended or not (it really doesn't come across as unintended though).

I find a lot of modern games hollow and unrewarding from a gameplay perspective than Souls. Lots of open world games you can beat with your eyes closed given enough time. And plenty of them substitute skinner box mechanics for actual enjoyment. Not every game is like this but there are very few that give the same sense of satisfaction you feel from finally toppling a tough area of a Souls game and the reward of continuing on into a new undiscovered place. And games don't have to be tough to give that same sense of reward and satisfaction. I get it from lots of other games like Super Metroid which I wouldn't consider tough but is rewarding and not shallow. Again I'm not saying every game outside Dark Souls is shallow and unrewarding, but a hell of a lot of triple A games are.

Potential-Monke wrote: »

So again, you state that everyone has their own tastes, but we're wrong about Soulsborne games. It's up there with people saying that wearing labels is better than generic stuff.

It's not really. It's more like saying the latest foreign language film masterpiece is excellent and more people should see it and then nobody seeing it because they don't like subtitles and they watch Infinity War instead.

Some people can't get over subtitles the same way that some people can't get over the challenge Souls presents. Nothing you can do about it. I just shrug and think their loss. However it doesn't make it a bad film or a bad game for everyone.

Although that's what it was kind of like with Demon's Souls. I'm actually surprised and delighted how much the series has captured the modern conscience. I remember I stopped listening the Giant Bombcast as the guys on it kept saying how Demon's Souls was too tough and frustrating with awful combat mechanics and now you can't shut them up about how good these games are. I'll still never forgive them.

Potential-Monke

You're still doing it! :pac: You're saying i'm incorrect (maybe wrong is the, ah, wrong word) because it hasn't clicked with me. To me, 6 hours spent on a game is far more than enough time to know if it's for you. If it hasn't clicked in that time, it's not going to imo. I've given up on games in far less time than that, but because fans were so insistent that it's brilliant once it clicks, I persisted for those 6 hours (this was debated a good few pages back, how long is enough time?!) and it didn't click, it just got more and more frustrating because of repetition. I'd say something if it was like MGS and the first 6 hours are cut scenes, but it's not, it throws you into it, gives you a push on the back and closes the door behind you.

I appreciate the fans love the game because of the initial difficulty which is quickly forgotten once it clicks, and becomes enjoyable to the degree that ye say it's not difficult (it is until you get the mechanics at the very least, but even then still requires countless hours for a newbie to learn - unless you're one of those super elite badasses whose just simply amazeballs at gaming...). But it's wrong, imo, to say it's not hard. It is. They are the hardest ARPG's out there, hands down. Fans say this is because other games are too easy, with the 'skinner box mechanics'. Whereas I say those games are equivalent to the bullet hell of shooters. I've no doubt the fans of bullet hell games will tell you they're the best and the rest are too easy.

I think a simple question would sort this. Do you agree or disagree that some people don't like the Dark Souls games because they're too hard? If the answer is anything but yes, then you are clouded by your own love for the games and think everyone else is wrong incorrect. To make another point, Ace Combat 7, it's very meh, on the lower end of meh, to me. God of War (2018) has broken gaming for me because I thought it was the best game I've every played, above the Legacy of Kain series which had the top spot up to that point. I'm not wrong, because it's my opinion. You're not wrong because it's your opinion.

Arcadeheroes

Potential-Monke wrote: »

You're still doing it! :pac: You're saying i'm incorrect (maybe wrong is the, ah, wrong word) because it hasn't clicked with me. To me, 6 hours spent on a game is far more than enough time to know if it's for you. If it hasn't clicked in that time, it's not going to imo. I've given up on games in far less time than that, but because fans were so insistent that it's brilliant once it clicks, I persisted for those 6 hours (this was debated a good few pages back, how long is enough time?!) and it didn't click, it just got more and more frustrating because of repetition. I'd say something if it was like MGS and the first 6 hours are cut scenes, but it's not, it throws you into it, gives you a push on the back and closes the door behind you.

I appreciate the fans love the game because of the initial difficulty which is quickly forgotten once it clicks, and becomes enjoyable to the degree that ye say it's not difficult (it is until you get the mechanics at the very least, but even then still requires countless hours for a newbie to learn - unless you're one of those super elite badasses whose just simply amazeballs at gaming...). But it's wrong, imo, to say it's not hard. It is. They are the hardest ARPG's out there, hands down. Fans say this is because other games are too easy, with the 'skinner box mechanics'. Whereas I say those games are equivalent to the bullet hell of shooters. I've no doubt the fans of bullet hell games will tell you they're the best and the rest are too easy.

I think a simple question would sort this. Do you agree or disagree that some people don't like the Dark Souls games because they're too hard? If the answer is anything but yes, then you are clouded by your own love for the games and think everyone else is wrong incorrect. To make another point, Ace Combat 7, it's very meh, on the lower end of meh, to me. God of War (2018) has broken gaming for me because I thought it was the best game I've every played, above the Legacy of Kain series which had the top spot up to that point. I'm not wrong, because it's my opinion. You're not wrong because it's your opinion.

Does that mean I am finally allowed to say Sonic Adventure is better than Mario 64 ?

Potential-Monke

Arcadeheroes wrote: »

Does that mean I am finally allowed to say Sonic Adventure is better than Mario 64 ?

You certainly can. I personally wouldn't agree, but I've yet to play a Sonic game that's just good in general.

Penn

Started on Bloodborne again. Frustrating at the start certainly, though my knowledge of having played before helped. Must say though coming from Sekiro, the camera and lock-on is abysmal, and having a stamina meter is a kick in the nads.

Had to repeat the first area numerous times, but managed to take down the Cleric Beast.

gimli2112

Cleric Beast is one of those battles that really highlights the camera problem.

Penn

gimli2112 wrote: »

Cleric Beast is one of those battles that really highlights the camera problem.

Yeah got stuck behind him a little at one point. It was mostly the ogre behind the gate at the bonfire that f*cked me camera-wise on more than one occasion though. And trying to lock-on to an enemy I can clearly see to my side (especially when they're hiding but you know they're there), then the camera centres behind me and I get smashed.

gimli2112

always remember trying to sneak up on that ogre and the horror when he turned around

johnny_ultimate

Arcadeheroes wrote: »

Does that mean I am finally allowed to say Sonic Adventure is better than Mario 64 ?

There is no objectively wrong opinions when it comes to art - this is my firm, long-standing belief.

But you know every rule has exceptions

Retr0gamer

I'll hear nothing bad about Ace combat 7.

If you are playing with the baby casual training wheels controls then you will think it's meh. It's a far better game when you use the proper controls. Baffled why they are an option as the make the game so bad.

These games just aren't for me

Temptamperu

While I like the idea the exploration the setting I cant get past the repetitive combat.

Potential-Monke

Deleted User wrote: »

These games just aren't for me

No, no, you just haven't played them enough for them to click. Keep playing them until they do, and they'll definitely be the best games you've ever played. :pac:

gimli2112

Glad to see you've come around Potential :P

Brozy

Temptamperu wrote: »

While I like the idea the exploration the setting I cant get past the repetitive combat.

I've only scratched the surface so far but don't think the combat is repetitive. There's a very diverse range of enemies to face. There's any amount of ways you can you approach combat with different character builds and weapon types and magic, etc. It's only as repetitive as you make it.

But hey, I found the combat in God of War very very repetitive and that was critically acclaimed so I guess each to their own...

Penn

I've now gotten to the same point in Bloodborne where I stopped previously; the blood starved beast. Have realised that last time where I thought I summoned another player to help me, its actually just an NPC.

Still think much of the camera and lock on is horrible, the controls can be cumbersome (not knowing I needed antidote on quick menu and trying to assign it during a fight when there's no pausing the game...) and I rarely see any point in doing anything other than charged swing attack with long hunters axe.

Will belt on further tomorrow regardless.

TitianGerm

Penn wrote: »

I've now gotten to the same point in Bloodborne where I stopped previously; the blood starved beast. Have realised that last time where I thought I summoned another player to help me, its actually just an NPC.

Still think much of the camera and lock on is horrible, the controls can be cumbersome (not knowing I needed antidote on quick menu and trying to assign it during a fight when there's no pausing the game...) and I rarely see any point in doing anything other than charged swing attack with long hunters axe.

Will belt on further tomorrow regardless.

He's weak to fire so imbue your axe when fighting him. Use Molotov as well. If you've a serrated weapon use that against beast type enemies.

Penn

TitianGerm wrote: »

He's weak to fire so imbue your axe when fighting him. Use Molotov as well. If you've a serrated weapon use that against beast type enemies.

I pretty much had him. Another attack and he was gone. But I was poisoned and the time it took to try and cure and heal and dodge, he got me.

I think if I hadn't had to try assign the antidote to the quick menu during the fight I'd have taken him easily.

What is the story with playing offline? Obviously you can't join or let someone join your game, but does it get rid of the messages on the ground too? Also, is insight used for anything other than summoning help or what should I be doing with it?

TitianGerm

Penn wrote: »

I pretty much had him. Another attack and he was gone. But I was poisoned and the time it took to try and cure and heal and dodge, he got me.

I think if I hadn't had to try assign the antidote to the quick menu during the fight I'd have taken him easily.

What is the story with playing offline? Obviously you can't join or let someone join your game, but does it get rid of the messages on the ground too? Also, is insight used for anything other than summoning help or what should I be doing with it?

You can be invaded by other players if you're online. That can't happen when you're offline. Yep and the messages won't show up.

More insight reveals different things about the game world.

Retr0gamer

There's not a lot of online play because it's kind of broken. The framerates totally tanks in multiplayer which puts people off.

It probably will get rid of messages but because online is so broken it probably contributes the least to bloodborne.