Aer Lingus Fleet/ Routes Discussion Pt 2 (ALL possible routes included)

kevinandrew

The long term consequences of not receiving the XLRs may however be of concern to pilots, maybe not right now, but soon enough. Once expansion stops and investment stalls, things quickly become a one way street.

While we see these moves as threats and negotiating tactics, the type of business IAG is will simply see it as good asset management.

HTCOne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121953633#Comment_121953633

To threaten to allocate the aircraft elsewhere and cut jobs if the Pilots don't accede to the Airline's demands on the pay deal is wholly disrespectful of the established industrial relations process in Ireland. Once the Labour Court agree to hear out your case, the precedent is for neither party to escalate and to maintain the status quo until the Court reaches a verdict. To act this way shows that either Embleton and Gallagio haven't done their homework on how IR works in this country or are contemptuous of it.

FR738

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121953630#Comment_121953630

DL recently upped the MSP flights to daily, at least for the summer, so they now definitely have the upper hand on that route.

Noxegon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121953808#Comment_121953808

With all due respect, I don't think IAG as an international company has even the remotest interest in "what has always been done" – if the law says something then I'm sure they'll follow it, but otherwise, they're a business.

They've got a large well-funded competitor with an exceptionally low cost base in Ireland, and that there's little point in investing further unless they can similarly keep their costs down.

Personally I wish EI would stop trying to be FR – charge a bit more for a materially better soft product and perhaps pay their staff accordingly – but I suspect that's optimism to the point of foolishness.

kevinandrew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121953893#Comment_121953893

True. Charging even more to facilitate the additional costs of a higher end product would likely price them out of the competitive market they find themselves in.

Also, IAG would never be convinced it’s worth the investment in the first place. Neither BA or IB short haul are anything to write home about, and IAG consider them their “premium” carriers which is laughable imo.

Macrophage 449

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121953630#Comment_121953630

I believe Delta are daily for the Summer schedule to MSP. It then stops for the Winter season.

Shamrockj

totally embarrassing to threaten to pull aircraft if staff don’t accept crumbs?

The airline is extremely profitable and treats its employees that create this profit with total contempt !

Employees are not shareholders so I don’t see why they would care whether they get the XLR or not?

cson

Very much a cutting off your nose to spite your face move from IAG considering EI are the star performer from a pure P&L perspective.

But also quite on brand, the current leadership across the board at the parent and airlines definitely do not strike you as the sharpest tools in the box. Just simply, tools.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121953808#Comment_121953808

I’m not sure which world you are living in but the question is whether IAGas a group wish to allocate additional resources to Aer Lingus which would facilitate growth. I’m not aware that there is any threat to existing jobs. As I understand it, the pilots were feather-bedded compared to other staff cohorts during Covid but I could misunderstand that. It’s entirely normal in a multinational environment to allocate resources where they will provide secure and adequate returns. Ryanair’s approach is similar via a vis the passenger cap. They could easily allocate another 5 aircraft to Dublin and just reduce the utilisation rate of the aircraft but I don’t see anyone complaining about their financial decision to target growth in areas which will produce revenue. Likewise, Awr Lingus is no longer a jobs for the boys semi-state. The pilots can vote with their feet if they wish to go elsewhere.

lintdrummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121954720#Comment_121954720

You may not be aware of it but the COO has threatened that in the event of the XLRs being allocated to another airline it would reduce the pilot requirement by a significant number. These are current pilots being threatened as these aircraft are due to start arriving this year. He has also threatened that this would would have a knock on effect on the numbers required in other areas of the business.

I don't know why you think the pilots were "feather-bedded" during Covid. They took a pay reduction for a longer period than any other employee group and a new lower pay scale was introduced for new joiners post Covid. Also, a significant portion of pilot pay is made up of variable pay, which only applies if pilots are flying, which they obviously weren't during the pandemic, so it wasn't just the 50% cut to their salaries that they were hit with.

As for the issue of the XLRs, I have my suspicions as to the motives behind the threat. Yes, it could be a weak industrial relations tactic, but perhaps IAG would rather deploy these airframes elsewhere regardless of the pilot pay dispute. Maybe now, some years after Aer Lingus were picked as the launch customer, there is a greater need for the airframes elsewhere. It may be convenient to reassign the airframes to another airline under the auspices of uncertainty in Aer Lingus driving the decision.

Noxegon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121954639#Comment_121954639

If their costs rise perhaps they won't be the star performer any more?

sailing

Sounds more like a Management problem rather than a pilot one to me.

lintdrummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121956324#Comment_121956324

If they don't give staff a remuneration package that's in line with what competitors offer, they will struggle to attract new pilots, engineers, cabin crew etc. resulting in further degradation of the service and the brand. Two sides of the same coin.

Noxegon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121957361#Comment_121957361

Honest question, is Aer Lingus pay not competitive with Ryanair?

Lockheed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121957658#Comment_121957658

Aer Lingus pay and benefits are already quite noticeably above Ryanair's.

Aer Lingus pilots are looking for pay packages more in line with the USA Big Three airlines ( 25-27% increase) which the airline cannot afford.

lintdrummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121957658#Comment_121957658

For engineers, Ryanair is far better. For pilots, the Aer Lingus package is better in the long run, but promotion to left seat would be quicker in Ryanair and thus pilots can get better pay there in a shorter time.

Aer Lingus have always made the bulk of their profit on the Atlantic. The US carriers EI compete against have vastly superior pay and conditions for their crews. Having said that, nobody expects EI to match US pay, it's a totally different market. But EI management regularly talk about cost base and keeping it down to compete with RYR, they never acknowledge the huge advantage they have on the Atlantic.

lintdrummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121957701#Comment_121957701

25% wouldn't come anywhere close to matching the US big three. The figure the EI pilots are looking for (reportedly around 23%) is simple uncompounded inflation since their last pay award. Hardly an outrageous claim.

Why do you think the airline can't afford it? The executive team are sharing millions in remuneration and bonuses, such is the financial performance of the company.

Tenger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121957701#Comment_121957701

Very much off the mark.
A senior line pilot in the US big 3 will make >350K a year. Thats quite a bit over the max salary for an EI line captain.

Remember, this is the same EI Mgmt team who argued that 5 cabin crew on the A321LR would make the planned operation "unviable". They love to make ludicrous statements.

kevinandrew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121957997#Comment_121957997

I agree with the wider point you're making but is it actually the same management team? Many of the top roles within Aer Lingus have changed since then, including the CEO, CFO and COO.

Noxegon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121957937#Comment_121957937

Putting the hard-nosed business hat on for a moment, at the end of the day they're an airline offering work to Irish-based pilots –– and therefore the only competition that matters is other airlines offering work to Irish-based pilots.

CoisFharraige

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121957958#Comment_121957958

Yes - inflation from 2019Q1 to 2023Q1 is approx. 18%, 19.7% if you go back to 2018 (Source: CSO inflation calculator)

Their pay increase request is 20%, with 7% accounting for the 2019 summer leave agreement, which at this point would be in the best interests of all involved to just put behind them, but IAG aren't letting that one go… At least it would be a nod to the cuts the pilots took over the last number of years maybe.

As I said previously IAG seem to be completely unreasonable in this whole debate, and IALPA aren't known for backing down easily. Two very stubborn groups, and I think the pilots have the upper hand. Very much expecting that this will end up with strikes happening given morale seems to have been rock bottom the past while (from reading online - I am not involved). IAG have previously stated that industrial action won't affect their position… Again if they are that stubborn, things could get very very messy.

If people missed this latest article, IALPA & Aer Lingus are meeting this Wednesday, as requested by Aer Lingus to bring the date forward from April 22nd - so IALPA are cooperating which is positive. https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2024/0329/1440736-aer-lingus-seeks-pay-talks-with-pilots-to-secure-aircraft/

Jamie2k9

The end result will be around 15% + productivity both EI and UALPA need to stop wasting time and get a deal done.

20% pay hike/restoration simply will not happen and I think most reasonable pilots probably don’t think so either.

Inflation is irrelevant because very few if any pay hikes cover it.

As much as this might be about the XLRs I think the threat of strikes over the summer is real issue and the impact into summer 2025.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121958744#Comment_121958744

IAG can be very intransigent or robust in their industrial relations practices. Sometimes to enforce necessary change, perhaps sometimes in a short-sighted manner. The one think I would not expect of them is to make threats lightly. If they don’t want to direct new aircraft and growth towards Aer Lingus then they won’t. Of all the worker groups, pilots are the highest remunerated and the most mobile, capable of obtaining work outside Aer Lingus and indeed outside Ireland/Europe. Long haul pilots even more so.

Lapmo_Dancer

Coincidentally or not, Emirates have a Pilot roadshow in Dublin next week.

moonshy2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121958307#Comment_121958307

plenty of Aer Lingus pilots leaving for the Middle East and anywhere with decent wages. Using your business hat it seems to have covered your eyes somewhat. Pilots are highly mobile and flexible. Sit in a flight to Heathrow and Gatwick and you will likely see a pilot in uniform travelling home or to work long haul. If you want to think that the only marker for wages is Ryanair, Emerald or Cityjet then I’m sorry but that’s foolish. EI HR will know where their pilots have been leaving for and it isn’t Ryanair.

While comparing to US big 3 wages may not be a perfect metric it still has to be taken note of. More likely BA and EasyJet recent wage increases will be heavily noted and used in negotiations.

Noxegon

The phrase "decent wages" is wonderfully emotive, especially in the context of the average wage in this country.

Yes, pilots are highly skilled and earn a premium – but I'd be genuinely surprised if there were not a subset willing to take a pay cut for a DUB base.

Qaanaaq

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121958744#Comment_121958744

IAG don’t manage EI. This is up to EI management and its employees to work it out. The COO is ex Ryanair so that points to where some of IR style may have come from.

it’s a well used tactic

https://thecurrency.news/articles/40164/flight-risk-how-ryanair-is-migrating-its-irish-business-to-malta-and-poland-and-why-it-is-doing-it/

dingoxh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121954639#Comment_121954639

simply not true…..Aer Lingus are far from being the star performer. Currently, they have the lowest margin within IAG.

IB are the star…

Interesting that you think that the current mgmt team at IAG are not sharp!….just made €3.5B ly which is ahead of 2019. Is that a poor performance?

dingoxh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121956324#Comment_121956324

if their costs rise, their roic will continue to be at the bottom of the OpCo pile…slippery slope then as the roic of the other OpCos increases because of new investment…

notuslimited

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121955080#Comment_121955080

Hardly a threat…….to some it would be considered as stating the obvious.