Relaxation of Restrictions, Part III - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

alwald

growleaves wrote: »

You don't know that. You just think you do.

Do you know the opposite?

Quantum Erasure

Assetbacked wrote: »

Jesus that's rubbish. There's no nuance or satire or anything.

sometimes whats needed is just blunt facts

Arghus

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

You could of still passed on Influenza and killed someone in the past

Yes I could have, but the chances of catching and passing covid are higher. And covid is more deadly.

growleaves

deisedevil wrote: »

So it's a good thing that not to go with the Eggheads then is it? Shur what would they know. We can make up our own minds. Fúck science.

The country isn't organised solely around scientific-advisory principles. If that's what you want start the Positivist Party and fill it with physicians and marine biologists and start campaigning for seats.

Arghus

growleaves wrote: »

You don't know that. You just think you do.

As is the case with you.

But medical opinion tends to agree with my assessment.

Do you have data that refutes this?

FintanMcluskey

Arghus wrote: »

Yes I could have, but the chances of catching and passing covid are higher. And covid is more deadly.

Not proven yet. Covid is becoming less lethal the more that is discovered.
My point is more people died in the flu seasons recently than Covid. We may all have blood on our hands applying your theory

alwald

deisedevil wrote: »

If we have to bring back in the restrictions and have a lockdown a second time then the economy will be completely on its arsé. Do you not know that? Why do you think they are trying to make so sure that they get it right first time rather than try and try again.

We can't just have a go at it. We have to be a lot more sure than that.

You are 100% right but some people are only interested about Penney's summer stock going to waste :pac:

retro:electro

Arghus wrote: »

So the CMO, when asked about how low he wanted ICU admissions to be,said he wanted them to be as low as possible?

That's it? How does that show him to be a disgrace? He wants the least amount of seriously people in ICU? That's a sensible opinion.

I don't see any problem whatsoever with that.

The point being that it’s a deliberately vague answer where he’s holding all the cards and can chop and change as he sees fit. It’s not acceptable. They gave us a target to reach last time and we achieved the what they asked, and it still wasn’t enough. So this time, Tony knows better than to allude to any kind of figure because if it’s achieved, yet the shlt hits the fan on their end again, then they can’t blame us for under performing. They don’t want to risk that happening again because rest assured, if these unkown mysterious targets are not reached - the blame will be laid square back on our feet despite us not even knowing what more we can actually achieve. I can’t believe this vague plodding along in limbo land is being accepted by the majority of people, but I do do see more and more people questioning and challenging their methods which is good.

At this stage it feels like we are children again doing homework while looking outside the window seeing everyone else playing. We’re gently being encouraged and told we’re doing great, good job, keep it up, it’s looking great.. But just when we’re about to finish we’re told actually it’s not good enough you need to start again and do more work, it was good but not good enough. It’s mentally draining. I can see a massive pushback if they arse around with moving along through the phases.

deisedevil

growleaves wrote: »

The country isn't organised solely around scientific-advisory principles. If that's what you want start the Positivist Party and fill it with physicians and marine biologists and start campaigning for seats.

We're not living in normal times. If we were involved in a world war, the leaders of our army (god help us) would have a far greater say in how things would be done. In these times of pandemic, our best medical and scientific people should have the greatest say.

tobefrank321

deisedevil wrote: »

I know you didn't say that. What I mean is, who has said we need to do that? Nobody! Restrictions will be lifted slowly, regardless of a vaccine availability.

Of course I'm concerned about the lives being ruined. But, I'm far more concerned about how much worse it could become. And I'd be much more comfortable with leaving the decisions to those making them at the minute than the likes of yourself anyway that's for sure. Where do you get the idea that you might have a better grasp of what we need than the people currently making the decisions? Do you think they got their jobs from a lucky bag? Seriously. How brazen are some of you that you think your opinion overrules these people. Have a good think about it. These people and more like them around the world are working their arses off to get countries back to normal. Your opinion that they are wrong means fúck all.

Our experts have presided over 1430 deaths and counting.

Taiwan's experts presided over 6 deaths despite being 80 miles from China.

Vietnam's experts have presided over ZERO deaths despite having a long and porous border with China.

Still think our experts are experts? Or clueless idiots?

They are clearly and without question the latter.

growleaves

But medical opinion tends to agree with my assessment.

Except when it doesn't, i.e. the study by University of Bonn virologists.

Arghus

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Not proven yet. Covid is becoming less lethal the more that is discovered.
My point is more people died in the flu seasons recently than Covid. We may all have blood on our hands applying your theory

How many people died due to influenza in the previous cold season.

Current deaths from Covid stand at 1429.

FintanMcluskey

deisedevil wrote: »

In these times of pandemic, our best medical and scientific people should have the greatest say.

Thats a frightening thought.

Check out the cervical check scandal and the subsequent cover up

tobefrank321

Arghus wrote: »

I try to practice social distancing, but in my line of work it's next to impossible. I was within 2 metres of literally hundreds of people today. The nature of being on a shopfloor. Unless I hide in the toilets all day.

Look you are not going to kill someone.

What will kill people is inadequate PPE in nursing homes and HSE and government mistakes.

Arghus

growleaves wrote: »

Except when it doesn't, i.e. the study by University of Bonn virologist study.

One study. That's been pointed to repeatedly. Where the other to back that up.

There's literally countless studies that don't share that assessment.

You are cherry picking and not being objective.

FintanMcluskey

Arghus wrote: »

Current deaths from Covid stand at 1429.

And thats where the stats are innacurate.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXgt8CtX0AE2SiZ.jpg

We can not say if one person that died from/with Covid would be alive today if Covid did not exist

Google Influenza pandemics of 2018 etc and all the info is there.

deisedevil

retro:electro wrote: »

The point being that it’s a deliberately vague answer where he’s holding all the cards and can chop and change as he sees fit. It’s not acceptable. They gave us a target to reach last time and we achieved the what they asked, and it still wasn’t enough. So this time, Tony knows better than to allude to any kind of figure because if it’s achieved, yet the shlt hits the fan on their end again, then they can’t blame us for under performing. I can’t believe this vague plodding along in limbo land is being accepted by the majority of people, but I do do see more and more people questioning and challenging their methods which is good.

At this stage it feels like we are children again doing homework while looking outside the window seeing everyone else playing. We’re gently being encouraged and told we’re doing great, good job, keep it up, it’s looking great.. But just when we’re about to finish we’re told actually it’s not good enough you need to start again and do more work, it was good but not good enough. It’s mentally draining. I can see a massive pushback if they arse around with moving along through the phases.

They're trying to squeeze as much out of the restrictions as they can. Setting deadlines of a few weeks and then extending it over and over is supposedly easier for some peoples minds to handle than being told your going to have to do this for 6 months. But some lads have finally realised that. And they're not happy. How dare them fellas trick us into staying safe like that. We'll make up our own minds about how we'll fúck this up, they say.

LiquidZeb

deisedevil wrote: »

They're trying to squeeze as much out of the restrictions as they can. Setting deadlines of a few weeks and then extending it over and over is supposedly easier for some peoples minds to handle than being told your going to have to do this for 6 months. But some lads have finally realised that. And they're not happy. How dare them fellas trick us into staying safe like that. We'll make up our own minds about how we'll fúck this up, they say.

Why do you keep trying to portray everyone who simply wants to mimic the way France, Germany and other European countries as suicidal moronic lemmings? People just want to salvage some amount of their lives and keep going. You can't wave mass unemployment, economic collapse, separation from relations at home and abroad in front of people's faces and act as if they're behaving like idiots.

growleaves

There's literally countless studies that don't share that assessment.

I haven't seen them. I was told over and over that there were countless studies on social distancing and when I demanded to see them, two posters pointed me to the same National Geographic article.

As for lethality re flu, covid-19 has killed less than 300k in 'only' five months. If its to be worse than a bad flu year we're going to need that much-dreamed of deadly second wave, woefully anticipated by yellow journalists and social media enthusiasts but not so much by medical scientists.

tobefrank321

You can easily judge the level of expertise of those advising governments by the number of people who have died in that country and the influence they hold over government.

By that metric, Taiwan, NZ, Australia, Germany and a couple of other countries are advised by world leading experts.

We on the otherhand clearly are not. If we were we wouldn't have 1430 dead after 8 weeks of lockdown.

Time to come up with a different plan and more importantly sack our current "experts".

We need experts who can like the countries mentioned minimise deaths and just as importantly economic damage.

deisedevil

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Thats a frightening thought.

Check out the cervical check scandal and the subsequent cover up

Going by that logic no one would take vaccines. Shur how can you trust them. Some of them have caused serious illnesses and death. But even though they get it wrong on the rare occasion, your much much better off to take vaccines and risk the tiny chance of something going wrong than to not go with them. Taking them is the best option.

Just because of the mistakes of the cervical check scandal does not mean we should abandon those who are best placed to make the right decisions for us. If you always go with your best possible chance of success you will have the right outcome more times than if you go with a lesser chance of success. Deciding to ignore our best advice is just mental. We'd be laughed at and looked on with pity from around the world, similar to what we do here when we see the Muricans drive their pick ups and guns up to state buildings demanding an end to restrictions.

alwald

growleaves wrote: »

I haven't seen them. I was told over and over that there were countless studies on social distancing and when I demanded to see them, two posters pointed me to the same National Geographic article.

As for lethality re flu, covid-19 has killed less than 300k in 'only' five months. If its to be worse than a bad flu year we're going to need that much-dreamed of deadly second wave, woefully anticipated by yellow journalists and social media enthusiasts but not so much by medical scientists.

Do you take into consideration that those circa 300K deaths linked to C-19 occurred with the current restrictions? What would that have been without restrictions?

Cork Boy 53

growleaves wrote: »

I haven't seen them. I was told over and over that there were countless studies on social distancing and when I demanded to see them, two posters pointed me to the same National Geographic article.

As for lethality re flu, covid-19 has killed less than 300k in 'only' five months. If its to be worse than a bad flu year we're going to need that much-dreamed of deadly second wave, woefully anticipated by yellow journalists and social media enthusiasts but not so much by medical scientists.

Be careful what you wish for. You may just get it in spades.

setanta1984

Just look at that graphic from the Guardian. It's utterly depressing to see how far literally every country(bar the UK) has progressed by week commencing May 11. We are literally 3 months behind all of this. We had double digit new cases outside care homes this week.

Schools, childcare, shops, bars, restaurants, hotels, museums, hairdressers, car dealerships, cinemas, even professional sports and gatherings up to 100, all in various parts of the continent.



How can people justify us being so radically different to basically everywhere?

alwald

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Time to come up with a different plan and more importantly sack our current "experts".

We need experts who can like the countries mentioned minimise deaths and just as importantly economic damage.

No, our plan is working well based on the current figures and our experts won't be sacked.

growleaves

Be careful what you wish for. You may just get it in spades.

I'm not wishing for bad things to happen. I'm saying that your 'evidence' is based on a hypothetical scenario that takes place in the future.

deisedevil

tobefrank321 wrote: »

You can easily judge the level of expertise of those advising governments by the number of people who have died in that country and the influence they hold over government.

By that metric, Taiwan, NZ, Australia, Germany and a couple of other countries are advised by world leading experts.

We on the otherhand clearly are not. If we were we wouldn't have 1430 dead after 8 weeks of lockdown.

Time to come up with a different plan and more importantly sack our current "experts".

We need experts who can like the countries mentioned minimise deaths and just as important economic damage.

The best experts out there wouldn't be calling for us to quickly lift our restrictions. We should have brought in much tighter restrictions earlier going by some of those other countries. We can't turn back the clock now, we are where we are. And where we are doesn't call for an end to restrictions any time soon.

By the way. How are we going to sack our experts and get better ones at a time like this?

Maybe we should just leave them where they are seeing as they are the best that we've got with no other alternative and a few lads on a forum aren't going to come up with anything better.

FintanMcluskey

deisedevil wrote: »

Going by that logic no one would take vaccines. Shur how can you trust them. Some of them have caused serious illnesses and death. But even though they get it wrong on the rare occasion, your much much better off to take vaccines and risk the tiny chance of something going wrong than to not go with them. Taking them is the best option.

Just because of the mistakes of the cervical check scandal does not mean we should abandon those who are best placed to make the right decisions for us. If you always go with your best possible chance of success you will have the right outcome more times than if you go with a lesser chance of success. Deciding to ignore our best advice is just mental. We'd be laughed at and looked on with pity from around the world, similar to what we do here when we see the Muricans drive their pick ups and guns up to state buildings demanding an end to restrictions.

Well I see little point in taking a vaccine that is not of properly field trialled to prevent what is essentially a flu.
If the side effects are favourable fine but Im sure Id be more likely to grow an extra leg than a cleft chin.
The cervical check scandal illuminates the right to transparency. Tony might be the right man but he must be transparent, thats all that is required

stephenjmcd

alwald wrote: »

No, our plan is working well based on the current figures and our experts won't be sacked.

I'd be quite surprised if someone wasn't sacrificed be it from dept of health or HSE due to the nursing home situation and how they had time to stop it and didn't.

Seeing as its Ireland we'll set up a committee that'll take years to look at the whole thing.

alwald

stephenjmcd wrote: »

I'd be quite surprised if someone wasn't sacrificed be in dept of health or HSE due to the nursing home situation and how they had time to stop it and didn't

Which EU country managed well nursing homes??