has covid 19 been blown out of all proportion?

Boggles

Boggles wrote: »

Could I get a link that figure when you get a chance.

Good lad.

More like between 10k - 30k during the flu season only over the last few years.

There you go, chief. Something for you to read (good lad),

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/839350/Surveillance_of_influenza_and_other_respiratory_viruses_in_the_UK_2018_to_2019-FINAL.pdf

cooperguy

hopalongcass wrote: »

Moving the goalposts now is it,again i didn't or never said anything about whether the health services would get overrun or not.

We have already borrowed off a cliff and turned hotels into makeshift hospitals that aren't being used we could have still done that while still leaving the country running where the Exchequer had some money coming in from businesses pubs etc.

Instead we doubled down with our children and grandchildrens future and are not only losing tax money we are paying out 70 percent wages and doing this when the most extensive and thorough model shows it has a very low death rate.

Come up with all the overwhelmed nonsense you like,but the fact is no matter how overwhelmed the health system might or might not have become less than 1 percent of the population is going to die from this,and mostly old and sick and it does not warrant shutting the whole place and bankrupting the country for such a small death rate that is the point and only point that matters.

But keep cheering us off a cliff,its great isn't it 70 percent wages for nothing no travel expenses to work,why would you want to open things back up,its party time.The banks only give us 6 billion so far with a promise of up to 30 so the fun isn't over yet for you lockdown enthusiasts this is the celtic tiger mark 2 so you might as well enjoy it.But make no mistake none of us are going to escape unscathed from whats coming down the line.

"Overwhelmed nonsense", Jesus look around yourself for a seond and you'll see who's talking nonsense. We've had 1000 deaths and used a large chunk of our hospital capacity even with the lock down measures we took. I guess you're one of these people who thought the millennium bug was nonsense because they got ahead of that problem too.

I haven't moved any goalposts by the way, its the whole point of the lockdown...

You're panicky about your job, that's grand, even reasonable. Just, maybe recognise it doesn't put you in a great position to make a reasonable judgement on the best course of action (even if you had any expertise in the area which seems doubtful).

wakka12

hopalongcass wrote: »

Always the lockdown enthusiasts who get the angriest around here i wonder why that is,is it because you can't actually debate your point so you think you need to shout and be abusive because you haven't actually got a strong point to debate on.

I haven't time to be searching all the sources i read on this previously,but here is one quote from a Peter Hitchens blog,who obviously i won't deny is a known anti lockdown guy.

But he is a very well educated journalist who doesn't put up garbage wily nily he checks his sources and is very professional.He doesn't claim to be an expert either but he claims to know experts and here is one quote from one of his stories for you to chew on.Bull**** too i suppose is it and hes just another crazy person spouting bull**** like me yeah?

"The DHSC notes that many of those who die from these diseases have underlying health conditions, as do almost all the victims of coronavirus so far, here and elsewhere. As the experienced and knowledgeable doctor who writes under the pseudonym ‘MD’ in the Left-wing magazine Private Eye wrote at the start of the panic: ‘In the winter of 2017-18, more than 50,000 excess deaths occurred in England and Wales, largely unnoticed.’"

Haha. You were the one who called somebody's post bull****, and youre calling others aggressive now. I'm actually not a lockdown enthusiast, I think we should aim to progress towards a system that is similar to what Sweden is doing. But its different to pretending there is no major public health issue going on right now. It really doesnt matter that most people who are dying from COVID have comordities, they are dying in absolutely huge and unprecedented numbers.

Yes, 50,000 over an entire winter season in 2017/18, also the most excess deaths recorded in a winter season in the UK in 45 years which you have very wrongly portrayed a few posts earlier as some kind of 'average' number who die in a typical winter in the Uk. That is an entire season, 4 month period. Currently we are looking at estimates of up to 40,000 within the last 4-5 weeks from COVID in the UK, 99% of the deaths in the UK have occurred in the last 28 days.


Also, bare in mind the deaths so far are what has occurred under a strict lockdown situation. I'm sure it was noticed that that many people died in the UK that winter, that would put an enormous strain on the healthcare system.

Boggles

hopalongcass wrote: »

haven't actually got a strong point to debate on.

When you get a chance.

Could you link to your claim that 60,000 die from the flu in the UK annually.

Cheers.

Boggles

skallywag wrote: »

Debate away with your fridge all you want, you can swear at it too if it makes you happy.

If you cannot behave like an adult then just scuttle away somewhere else.

So nothing then.

Grand job, as you were lad.

hopalongcass

Boggles wrote: »

I couldn't give a flying fúck TBH.

If you have evidence that refutes the claims made by FT link it up.

Laughable that a FT story mysteriously doubling the deaths without any testing having been done to any of these mysterious 20k deaths,we are now not even relying on the WHO or John Ioannidis or any doctors or virologists the FT is the go to place for the truth about this disease makes perfect sense.

hopalongcass

Boggles wrote: »

When you get a chance.

Could you link to your claim that 60,000 die from the flu in the UK annually.

Cheers.

Just did a few posts back you must have missed it,maybe my post was too long for your attention span its towards the end,probably too long of a read for you.

wakka12

hopalongcass wrote: »

Just did a few posts back you must have missed it,maybe my post was too long for your attention span its towards the end,probably too long of a read for you.

First of all, your claim of 60k was totally false. It was 50k excess deaths in the UK in winter 17/18, and by far the highest number of excess deaths recorded in a winter in 45 years.

Youre also far ruder than Boggles has ever been in reponse to your posts, despite you being the one who is calling other posters aggressive.

Risteard81

Sweden is about to attain herd immunity imminently.

wakka12

Risteard81 wrote: »

Sweden is about to attain herd immunity imminently.

Except its not. Only 1 in 5 New Yorkers are infected, and outside of the central city districts the infection rate is only 5%. What chance does the comparatively sparsely populated nation of Sweden stand at having an infection rate of 60-70% of the population

Ronan|Raven

Risteard81 wrote: »

Sweden is about to attain herd immunity imminently.

How many days from the published date of the artlicle are we talking?! How imminently? Before I finish this delicous scone I am eating?


Or will it work like, I am going to imminently lose weight once I take this horrendous **** thats brewing for the last few hours?!

Risteard81

Ronan|Raven wrote: »

How many days from the published date of the artlicle are we talking?! How immenently? Before I finish this delicous scone I am eating?

Transmission rates are already in decline.

ek motor

Risteard81 wrote: »

Sweden is about to attain herd immunity imminently.

Its very unlikely there will be any long term immunity to SARS-CoV-2. Other coronaviruses confer immunity for a matter of months to a couple of years at most.

Ronan|Raven

Risteard81 wrote: »

Transmission rates are already in decline.

The same as everywhere else then? Given, that the Swedes have also mostly sat at home?

wakka12

Risteard81 wrote: »

Transmission rates are already in decline.

Because of social distancing, ban on gatherings, people working at home, not herd immunity.
You could say Ireland has reached herd immunity based on the fact that transmission rate has declined (massively)

Risteard81

ek motor wrote: »

Its very unlikely there will be any long term immunity to SARS-CoV-2. Other coronaviruses confer immunity for a matter of months to a couple of years at most.

It's not unlikely. It's actually highly likely, though not guaranteed.

ek motor

wakka12 wrote: »

Except its not. Only 1 in 5 New Yorkers are infected, what chance does the comparatively sparsely populated nation of Sweden stand at having an infection rate of 60-70% of the population

And that's if the antibody tests that were used were accurate. Antibody tests appear to be detecting the 'wrong' kind of antibodies, binding antibodies instead of neutralizing ones.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01115-z

Risteard81

wakka12 wrote: »

Because of social distancing, ban on gatherings, people working at home, not herd immunity.

Incorrect.

ek motor

Risteard81 wrote: »

It's not unlikely. It's actually highly likely, though not guaranteed.

Where did you read it is 'highly likely' to develop long-term immunity to SARS-CoV-2 after infection ?

wakka12

Risteard81 wrote: »

Incorrect.

So tell me how could Swedish cities have gained herd immunity when immense urban metropolises in America with many times the density of Swedish cities have at most 20% infection rates?

NYC population 8.4 million
Population density 10,194/km²
NYC covid deaths 11800
Rate of infection 20%

Stockholm
Population 2.2 million
Population density 4,800 people per square kilometer
Stockholm Covid deaths roughly 1000
Rate of infection apparently 70%


Either there are two different diseases operating in Stockholm and New York or else the Swedish epidemiologist is very very wrong

is_that_so

Risteard81 wrote: »

It's not unlikely. It's actually highly likely, though not guaranteed.

Is there a link to this? Most commentators are suggesting that is unknown or that it may be unlikely.

Ronan|Raven

Risteard81 wrote: »

It's not unlikely. It's actually highly likely, though not guaranteed.

Sweet suffering jesus. Any other vague "it will but maybe it wont" statements in the locker?

hopalongcass

wakka12 wrote: »

Haha. You were the one who called somebody's post bull****, and youre calling others aggressive now. I'm actually not a lockdown enthusiast, I think we should aim to progress towards a system that is similar to what Sweden is doing. But its different to pretending there is no major public health issue going on right now. It really doesnt matter that most people who are dying from COVID have comordities, they are dying in absolutely huge and unprecedented numbers.

Yes, 50,000 over an entire winter season in 2017/18, also the most excess deaths recorded in a winter season in the UK in 45 years which you have very wrongly portrayed a few posts earlier as some kind of 'average' number who die in a typical winter in the Uk. That is an entire season, 4 month period. Currently we are looking at estimates of up to 40,000 within the last 4-5 weeks from COVID in the UK, 99% of the deaths in the UK have occurred in the last 28 days.


Also, bare in mind the deaths so far are what has occurred under a strict lockdown situation. I'm sure it was noticed that that many people died in the UK that winter, that would put an enormous strain on the healthcare system.

I did not call anyone's post bull**** I called a previous post nonsense in reply to him using the word nonsense,I replied bull**** to your post after you used the word bull**** but twist it up if you want.

The point is a lot of people die every day in the UK a lot,there is plenty of knowledgeable experts if you desire to find the real facts or whether you want to continue believing b and c grade experts like holohan who are just yes men,the best Virologists and doctors can't be bought so you won't hear their voices on the mainstream just lower Level experts I trust Peter Hitchens on this he will point you towards plenty of real experts.

He has no axe to grind in this and can't be bought,you can choose to believe he's a quack but I personally have a lot of respect for him.Hes a thorough and professional journalist who checks his sources and i trust some of the experts that he has linked and they all say the same thing,that it's no different than a seasonal flu as does John loannidis a respected Stanford professor. There is a long list of experts out there saying this same thing and they are being silenced but it's a pointless the lock down guys here defending it won't listen to reason for a multitude of reasons.

But one thing is certain the future is extremely bleak for all of us spending our way into hell building fancy virus testing facilities bankrolling rte and every businessman with connections has their hands out for a part of the bank bond pie and we all and for generations to come gonna be paying this back.

wakka12

hopalongcass wrote: »

I did not call anyone's post bull**** I called a previous post nonsense in reply to him using the word nonsense,I replied bull**** to your post after you used the word bull**** but twist it up if you want.

The point is a lot of people die every day in the UK a lot,there is plenty of knowledgeable experts if you desire to find the real facts or whether you want to continue believing b and c grade experts like holohan who are just yes men,the best Virologists and doctors can't be bought so you won't hear their voices on the mainstream just lower Level experts I trust Peter Hitchens on this he will point you towards plenty of real experts.

He has no axe to grind in this and can't be bought,you can choose to believe he's a quack but I personally have a lot of respect for him.Hes a thorough and professional journalist who checks his sources and i trust some of the experts that he has linked and they all say the same thing,that it's no different than a seasonal flu as does John loannidis a respected Stanford professor. There is a long list of experts out there saying this same thing and they are being silenced but it's a pointless the lock down guys here defending it won't listen to reason for a multitude of reasons.

But one thing is certain the future is extremely bleak for all of us spending our way into hell building fancy virus testing facilities bankrolling rte and every businessman with connections has their hands out for a part of the bank bond pie and we all and for generations to come gonna be paying this back.

You know who I trust, the medical staff fighting this on the front lines of epicentres in Lombardy, Madrid, New York, London and Paris and what they have to say about it. They have pleaded with people to stay indoors to help this disaster from escalating further. Medical staff have no 'axe to grind' theyre responding to the reality of their dire situtations and giving us the best advice they can

A lot of people die everyday in the UK, now many many more are dying everyday because its a pandemic. The death toll in New York and multiple epicentres and the proceeding antibody tests have proven that it is signifcantly more virulent that flu. Theyre being silenced (btw silenced and nobody giving a **** about their opinion is a different thing)because their opinion is not considered to be correct. A death toll and and an antibody test is actual proof, it really matters extremely little what anybody's opinion to the contrary of that proof is, as its simply not correct

hopalongcass

And just to add even if the numbers are correct, even if it's higher than predicted it's still far and away short of the numbers to warrant bankrupting the nation and risking the social fabric of society itself, which will cost way more lives.

Risteard81

wakka12 wrote: »

You know who I trust, the medical staff fighting this on the front lines of epicentres in Lombardy, Madrid, New York, London and Paris and what they have to say about it. They have pleaded with people to stay indoors to help this disaster from escalating further. Medical staff have no 'axe to grind' theyre responding to the reality of their dire situtations and giving us the best advice they can

They're not qualified to give a holistic view of this though. Their desire to crush the virus will actually kill many more people. But they can't see that. It's complete tunnel vision, and inherently dangerous.


Doctors are not qualified to determine political matters.

wakka12

hopalongcass wrote: »

And just to add even if the numbers are correct, even if it's higher than predicted it's still far and away short of the numbers to warrant bankrupting the nation and risking the social fabric of society itself, which will cost way more lives.

Fair enough. I may even agree , that it is something we have to get on and deal with it, society cant close forever

Saying this is flu though, complete and utter quackery

wakka12

'Seasonal flu' in Ecuador

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHsfjnRB-uA

Its a wonder how Ecuadorians havnt gone extinct with this happening annually

cooperguy

hopalongcass wrote: »

And just to add even if the numbers are correct, even if it's higher than predicted it's still far and away short of the numbers to warrant bankrupting the nation and risking the social fabric of society itself, which will cost way more lives.

Luckily the nation wont be bankrupted and if anything there has been a rallying of society as opposed to a splitting of the social fabric. Do you want to know want would risk the social fabric of society itself? - sacrificing peoples lives on the alter of the economy (or, you know, the crumbling of an already fragile health service)

extra gravy

Risteard81 wrote: »

Incorrect.

Yeah because all the global health experts are wrong and you know better. You're some craic. What are your medical/scientific qualifications by the way?