Relaxation of restrictions Part II

Keano

JRant wrote: »

Of course we could have implemented it. A few people rocked up to Glendalough and the media lost their minds. Cafe's, restaurants, and other small businesses could have tried outdoor seating where possible.
The problem isn't the general population, it's how a small number of people breaking restrictions seems to result in everyone being dealt in the same way. If beauty spots are and issue close them down. If some businesses are flaunting guidelines shut them down. Don't shut the entire country down though. That's a super conservative mindset and IMO a holdover from our recent past.

You have a lot more faith in Irish people so than I do so.

JRant

the kelt wrote: »

I admire your optimism with this and your other post.

In an ideal world yes it’s possible, the problem we have is for us to even meet the 3 weeks between phases (apparently the HSE wanted 4) we need mr cervical check scandal and his boardroom minions to also meet their targets which I have zero faith in happening.

Simply put since March 12th we still haven’t our testing up to where it was meant to be weeks ago, turnaround times for results still not near good enough, contact tracing still not up to speed and we have a mess in nursing homes but he still won’t allow a private nursing home rep sit on the NPHET (perhaps they’re trying to hide something from them?)

Plus at this point in time no one knows even what the numbers are meant to be to progress through phases anyway because ye know on the rare occasions they do get tasked with a question about specifics their answer is vague in the extreme (as low as possible an answer to a specific question concerning numbers)

So I admire your optimism but don’t share it.

It's a beautiful sunny May bank holiday Monday so I'm purposely being optimistic. IMO we will get to a stage soon where the people are just going to stop listening to the CMO and the rest of them by around end of June. There is nothing inherently safer about construction than smaller businesses. It's pure BS in fact to even suggest social distancing can be maintained on site, in many cases it's actually against current health and safety requirements to even suggest them.

Maybe I'm being over optimistic but I hope not.

Blueshoe

retro:electro wrote: »

Leo also said another two weeks of these restrictions would “weaken the virus”, and no one seems to have challenged him on that. Does the person who writes his speeches even understand the basics? The virus will still be there in all the same strength and glory on May 18th.

It's two more weeks of people not interacting and spreading the virus. What's another two more weeks.

Some but not all are pretending to be concerned about the jobs and mental well-being of others but it's clear to most that those people are only thinking about themselves. It's natural human nature. Dressing it up with fake concern for others isn't though. People should stop that.

Leo won't change his mind. He has found himself in a quasi dictatorship role where he makes the rules and that's that.

I see FG are soaring in the polls. People like a leader making their decisions for them. You get what you vote for.

storker

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

This made my day I have a funny feeling if Einstein told us that lockdown is a terrible idea, we would still have you coming here and dismissing him cus he is neither a doctor nor a virologist

A bit of education might improve your day even further:

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Appeal-to-False-Authority

And no, Einstein wouldn't be any more of an authority on matters medical. You don't seem to realize that there are different areas of expertise within science and medicine and being an expert on one area doesn't automatically imply expertise in others. This is why scientists and doctors specialise.



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Princess Consuela Bananahammock

NIMAN wrote: »

It's a little jarring to hear about Italy and Spain, 2 countries absolutely slaughtered by the virus, opening up yet it'll be mid August before we are even anywhere near open.

The level of damage that can be done to our nation economically between now and then could be immense.

IN fairness, those countries were hit a bit earlier so will be ahead of Ireland in terms to progress. In some ares they even had much stricter lockdowns.

My impression though is that the difference was that Ireland's health services weren't as robust or ready for this as other countries which have lower death tolls. That's an opinion though and not based on any informed research,

growleaves

dePeatrick wrote: »

Quite easy say this now, not two months ago though.

Some people were saying it two months ago. It wasn't a lack of information, it was a lack of honesty and proportion that led to broad acceptance of the lockdown.

For the last 1000 years pandemics have been dealt with by travel restrictions and quarantining the sick.

We kept our airports open, refused to quarantine the sick in fact sending them into nursing homes, but don't worry because we're going to turn the country into a prison instead and other countries are doing it.

lord quackinton

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

The part of "they want to beat the virus" is quite frightening. I am fearful there is a bit of ego involved, Simon Harris looks very competitive to me, could he crash the economy to "win against the virus"?

I hope not.

I call harris Father Harris since this started
Holohan i call uncle joe
Leo is The creep - his speeches are something if trump did he would be laughed at
Leo needs to stick to the facts and forget about his PR obsession

Penfailed

easypazz wrote: »

It is very sad to see so many people blindly following the Leo plan without have the intuition to even question it.

And then they have a meltdown when somebody proposes anything alternative, demanding people leave the thread.

So sad.

What's sadder is using the medium of Boards to question Leo's plan. Have you tried to contact anyone to challenge his plan? Have you lobbied your TD or even a local councillor? No?

Ginger n Lemon

storker wrote: »

A bit of education might improve your day even further:

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Appeal-to-False-Authority

And no, Einstein wouldn't be any more of an authority on matters medical. You don't seem to realize that there are different areas of expertise within science and medicine and being an expert on one area doesn't automatically imply expertise in others. This is why scientists and doctors specialise.



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Hey, if you think Tony Holohan should be listened to rather than Nobel winning scientists, knock yourself out. He is frequently on at RTE news at 6, along with Simon Harris, "defeating the virus".

JRant

the kelt wrote: »

I admire your optimism with this and your other post.

In an ideal world yes it’s possible, the problem we have is for us to even meet the 3 weeks between phases (apparently the HSE wanted 4) we need mr cervical check scandal and his boardroom minions to also meet their targets which I have zero faith in happening.

Simply put since March 12th we still haven’t our testing up to where it was meant to be weeks ago, turnaround times for results still not near good enough, contact tracing still not up to speed and we have a mess in nursing homes but he still won’t allow a private nursing home rep sit on the NPHET (perhaps they’re trying to hide something from them?)

Plus at this point in time no one knows even what the numbers are meant to be to progress through phases anyway because ye know on the rare occasions they do get tasked with a question about specifics their answer is vague in the extreme (as low as possible an answer to a specific question concerning numbers)

So I admire your optimism but don’t share it.

It's a beautiful sunny May bank holiday Monday so I'm purposely being optimistic. IMO we will get to a stage soon where the people are just going to stop listening to the CMO and the rest of them by around end of June. There is nothing inherently safer about construction than smaller businesses. It's pure BS in fact to even suggest social distancing can be maintained on site, in many cases it's actually against current health and safety requirements to even suggest them.

Maybe I'm being over optimistic but I hope not.

Downlinz

NIMAN wrote: »

It's a little jarring to hear about Italy and Spain, 2 countries absolutely slaughtered by the virus, opening up yet it'll be mid August before we are even anywhere near open.

The level of damage that can be done to our nation economically between now and then could be immense.

What's jarring is people referring to Italy and Spain "opening up" when their relaxation measures include things like allowing people out to exercise and allowing takeaway restaurants to deliver. Things we've had all along.

Not even to touch on the notion of wanting to follow the lead of the countries who have handled the pandemic in the worst possible way.

NIMAN

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

IN fairness, those countries were hit a bit earlier so will be ahead of Ireland in terms to progress. In some ares they even had much stricter lockdowns.

Agree, they had very strict lockdowns. Sure some Spanish were actually confined to their apartments and homes for 7 weeks bar getting food or medicine. Such a tough lockdown yet they are going to be out and about and working long before us at this rate.

And Spain hasn't a good health service either.

I just think these countries realise that you have to get back to a normal society asap, and that you will have to live with the virus for a while, if not forever .

It seems here in Ireland some folk are on a personal crusade to be the best country in terms of icu figures or deaths, and to help what it does to the economy, sure we'll just borrow more money to pay for it.

And people are asking why the media aren't questioning our politicians? Say what you want about trump, at least he has the balls to answer questions daily, no matter how rubbish his answers are sometimes.

storker

Blueshoe wrote: »

It's two more weeks of people not interacting and spreading the virus. What's another two more weeks.

Some but not all are pretending to be concerned about the jobs and mental well-being of others but it's clear to most that those people are only thinking about themselves. It's natural human nature. Dressing it up with fake concern for others isn't though. People should stop that.

The thought has occurred to me but I wouldn't assume what peoples' motivations are. Many are genuinely scared for the future - I get that. Some might just be worried that thy'll end up paying more tax further down the line, *shrug*, so will I. Some of course are just bummed out by not being able to go where they want when they want.

What (un)impresses me more is how non-experts are quoted (e.g. a few posts back) and how other countries are cited without taking into account report methodologies or cultural differences, particularly Sweden, where there is actually a debate going on about not locking down, although you'd never imagine that by reading the posts of those who love to cite Sweden here.

Leo won't change his mind. He has found himself in a quasi dictatorship role where he makes the rules and that's that.

I see FG are soaring in the polls. People like a leader making their decisions for them. You get what you vote for.

I'm no fan of Leo and didn't vote FG, but such dictatorship accusations don't convince me. FG prides itself on being the most business-friendly party, so locking down must go very much against the FG instinct. Leo might just be enjoying an extendsion of his time in the limelight and getting a chance to be a national leader during a time of crisis. To me, that's more plausible that suggesting that he's effectively breaking in a pair of jackboots.



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Ginger n Lemon

NIMAN wrote: »

Agree, they had very strict lockdowns. Sure some Spanish were actually confined to their apartments and homes for 7 weeks bar getting food or medicine. Such a tough lockdown yet they are going to be out and about and working long before us at this rate.

And Spain hasn't a good health service either.

I just think these countries realise that you have to get back to a normal society asap, and that you will have to live with the virus for a while, if not forever .

It seems here in Ireland some folk are on a personal crusade to be the best country in terms of icu figures or deaths, and to help what it does to the economy, sure we'll just borrow more money to pay for it.

And people are asking why the media aren't questioning our politicians? Say what you want about trump, at least he has the balls to answer questions daily, no matter how rubbish his answers are sometimes.

Last point is great. We all know Leo's answers wouldnt exactly be up to scratch given his late late cameo, but we at least expect him to face the questions.

JRant

Keano wrote: »

You have a lot more faith in Irish people so than I do so.

Possibly (maybe the sunshine has gone to me head )but remember AGS police by consent and to date have very high compliance rates.

RugbyLad11

We can't visit other peoples homes until 2nd phase but in the 2nd phase we can also visit the homes of over 70's

"Visits to homes of over 70's and vulnerable permitted"

"Up to four people can visit another household for a short period"

This doesn't make sense to me, if it's so dangerous for young people to visit another home until phase 2, why are over 70's and vulnerable allowed at the dame time?

Surely young people should be allowed to visit each other before the vulnerable people?

easypazz

Downlinz wrote: »

What's jarring is people referring to Italy and Spain "opening up" when their relaxation measures include things like allowing people out to exercise and allowing takeaway restaurants to deliver. Things we've had all along.

Not even to touch on the notion of wanting to follow the lead of the countries who have handled the pandemic in the worst possible way.

And some bars in Spain from today.

storker

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Hey, if you think Tony Holohan should be listened to rather than Nobel winning scientists, knock yourself out. He is frequently on at RTE news at 6, along with Simon Harris, "defeating the virus".

Thanks for proving my point, and continuing to pretend that having a Noble prize in <anything> qualifies someone to pass judgement on a virus pandemic more so that experts in the fields of, er...viruses and pandemics. If onlty Seamus Heaney was still alive. He coudl have really helped out...and delivered his advice in poetic form as a bonus.

Do you really imagine that Tony Holohan isn't also consulting expert opinion? But hey, maybe you could e-mail him and give him a steer in the direction of a prize-winning chemist or physicist. :rolleyes:

For someone who has so much to say about the virus and lockdown, you give every appearance of being spectacularly ill-informed about the topic.



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road_high

easypazz wrote: »

And some bars in Spain from today.

Depressing. Why are we always now such a fcukin nanny state there? Look I'm not old, mid 30s, but i remember a time when we were the most feckless nation in Europe. We've gone to the opposite now- dry, anal-rule worshipping, bureaucratic devoid of common sense over sensitive loons.
How i long to be more like the great liberal democracies of the Continent where personal freedom and risk are still cherished.

Ginger n Lemon

storker wrote: »

Thanks for proving my point, and continuing to pretend that having a Noble prize in <anything> qualifies someone to pass judgement on a virus pandemic more so that experts in the fields of, er...viruses and pandemics. If onlty Seamus Heaney was still alive. He coudl have really helped out...and delivered his advice in poetic form as a bonus.

Do you really imagine that Tony Holohan isn't also consulting expert opinion? But hey, maybe you could e-mail him and give him a steer in the direction of a prize-winning chemist or physicist. :rolleyes:

For someone who has so much to say about the virus and lockdown, you give every appearance of being spectacularly ill-informed about the topic.



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Ahhh the old "expert opinion" debate. Well, if Tony Holohan is consulting the expert opinion, we have absolutely nothing to worry about. Our response to Coronavirus has been top notch and will be published in years to come as "how to respond to a pandemic, by Tony Holohan and expert opinions"

I dont usually say this, but wake up and smell the coffee.

Penfailed

JRant wrote: »

It's pure BS in fact to even suggest social distancing can be maintained on site, in many cases it's actually against current health and safety requirements to even suggest them.

What current H&S requirements would social distancing go against?

easypazz

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Ahhh the old "expert opinion" debate. Well, if Tony Holohan is consulting the expert opinion, we have absolutely nothing to worry about. Our response to Coronavirus has been top notch and will be published in years to come as "how to respond to a pandemic, by Tony Holohan and expert opinions"

I dont usually say this, but wake up and smell the coffee.

Tony "Cervicalcheck" Holohan.

Dare we challenge him.

storker

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Ahhh the old "expert opinion" debate. Well, if Tony Holohan is consulting the expert opinion, we have absolutely nothing to worry about. Our response to Coronavirus has been top notch and will be published in years to come as "how to respond to a pandemic, by Tony Holohan and expert opinions"

I dont usually say this, but wake up and smell the coffee.

Translation; "I have no argument so I'll reach for sarcasm and a oneliner."

Impressive.

Enjoy your coffee which, based on your demonstrated ability to judge expertise, is probably week-old cocoa.




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RugbyLad11

RugbyLad11 wrote: »

We can't visit other peoples homes until 2nd phase but in the 2nd phase we can also visit the homes of over 70's

"Visits to homes of over 70's and vulnerable permitted"

"Up to four people can visit another household for a short period"

This doesn't make sense to me, if it's so dangerous for young people to visit another home until phase 2, why are over 70's and vulnerable allowed at the dame time?

Surely young people should be allowed to visit each other before the vulnerable people?

This like this makes it feel like the plan was thrown together last minute after people complained about no plans after LEO leaked stuff in the kite flying exercise last week

Benimar

RugbyLad11 wrote: »

We can't visit other peoples homes until 2nd phase but in the 2nd phase we can also visit the homes of over 70's

"Visits to homes of over 70's and vulnerable permitted"

"Up to four people can visit another household for a short period"

This doesn't make sense to me, if it's so dangerous for young people to visit another home until phase 2, why are over 70's and vulnerable allowed at the dame time?

Surely young people should be allowed to visit each other before the vulnerable people?

Read the full paragraph about the over 70’s.

‘Visits to homes of over 70s and medically vulnerable by no more than a small number of persons for a short period of time wearing gloves, face coverings, maintaining strict 2m social distancing‘

Under 70s can meet without those requirements, bar the social distancing one.

lawrencesummers

growleaves wrote: »

Some people were saying it two months ago. It wasn't a lack of information, it was a lack of honesty and proportion that led to broad acceptance of the lockdown.

For the last 1000 years pandemics have been dealt with by travel restrictions and quarantining the sick.

We kept our airports open, refused to quarantine the sick in fact sending them into nursing homes, but don't worry because we're going to turn the country into a prison instead and other countries are doing it.

I think you have a point, Ryanair, airlingus, BA went through the 1918 flu pandemic with no effect on them.


Wait. Hmmm something’s wrong. Would I be that commercial air travel only Began in earnest post world war 2....

RugbyLad11

Benimar wrote: »

Read the full paragraph about the over 70’s.

‘Visits to homes of over 70s and medically vulnerable by no more than a small number of persons for a short period of time wearing gloves, face coverings, maintaining strict 2m social distancing‘

Under 70s can meet without those requirements, bar the social distancing one.

Ah fair enough, I was just reading it here

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/coronavirus-a-full-look-at-irelands-roadmap-to-leaving-lockdown-39174420.html

Ginger n Lemon

easypazz wrote: »

Tony "Cervicalcheck" Holohan.

Dare we challenge him.

Just because he has been wrong in the past, doesnt mean he is wrong now. No, wait, it probably does. :S

Penfailed

NIMAN wrote: »

And people are asking why the media aren't questioning our politicians? Say what you want about trump, at least he has the balls to answer questions daily, no matter how rubbish his answers are sometimes.

What I've seen from Trump's media interactions, if he doesn't like the question, he attacks the journalist rather than answer the question. It's safer not to answer questions than tell the public to ingest disinfectant...

easypazz

Benimar wrote: »

Read the full paragraph about the over 70’s.

‘Visits to homes of over 70s and medically vulnerable by no more than a small number of persons for a short period of time wearing gloves, face coverings, maintaining strict 2m social distancing‘

Under 70s can meet without those requirements, bar the social distancing one.

Have they defined how many "a small number of persons is"

Have they defined "short period of time"

What is the point in wearing gloves?

Looks like another spoof cast.