Rights on Notice of Redeployment in Public Sector

jadie

I meant that public opinion would go against them if they did any anything

Reputable Rog

jadie wrote: »

I meant that public opinion would go against them if they did any anything

Their remit is to represent members not dance to public opinion.
Some of the dangers many in the public service have been exposed to in recent weeks are shocking.
It was rule for the public and another for public servants.
As a local rep I can see the Unions emerging very damaged from this crisis.

beauf

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Their remit is to represent members ....

Unions tend to represent not their branch but the overall membership. So if you have a local issue but it's not typical of the larger membership your issues will be have a low priority and you might find no local issues ever get attention or addressed. Small fish in a big sea etc.

But in a national crisis, a humanitarian crisis, its all hands to the wheel.

But if you look at the bigger picture. The public sector and the Unions didn't entirely restore the reductions conceded for austerity. There's now been a massive hole blown through public finances. Austerity 2 will be far more severe and the Unions are probably keeping their powder dry for that. Though they'll probably not put up to much of resistance to that either.

Reputable Rog

beauf wrote: »

Unions tend to represent not their branch but the overall membership. So if you have a local issue but it's not typical of the larger membership your issues will be have a low priority and you might find no local issues ever get attention or addressed. Small fish in a big sea etc.

But in a national crisis, a humanitarian crisis, its all hands to the wheel.

But if you look at the bigger picture. The public sector and the Unions didn't entirely restore the reductions conceded for austerity. There's now been a massive hole blown through public finances. Austerity 2 will be far more severe and the Unions are probably keeping their powder dry for that. Though they'll probably not put up to much of resistance to that either.

The issues weren’t local, they were widespread across the public sector and across the country.

noodler

It's a little depressing to see the attitude of some on here when over half a million people have lost their jobs in the last month and everyone else is pulling together.

AulWan wrote: »

I won't work up extra hours while flexi time is suspended. I'll just do my required number of hours + lunch.

The idea that you are as busy at the monent as you would be in work is stretching it.

I know I've had to adjust to answer important queries (outside of the 9-5 or not).

The idea of keeping Flexi when ppl could log on at 8 and then log out at 7, without any supervision or verification of the actual work requirement, potentially netting them a further 1.5 days of AL a month, is absolutely ridiculous.



People across the system are not as busy as usual and now cribbing because they won't be able to claim unverified OT (albeit in the form of.time in lieu) leaves a terrible taste.

FluffPiece

That's why some local authorities were having people apply a business absence to cover a day worked at home. No flexi time could be earned or lost with that kind of absence applied to their TMS.

It makes sense that the scheme has been suspended and there was always a part of the scheme that said it could be suspended depending on the departmental issues. I don't think anyone is going to be expecting employees to start working 10 hour days now that it has been suspended but you can be sure there will be a fair few disgruntled if they lose just 1 minute of time due to the suspension.

august12

noodler wrote: »

It's a little depressing to see the attitude of some on here when over half a million people have lost their jobs in the last month and everyone else is pulling together.



The idea that you are as busy at the monent as you would be in work is stretching it.

I know I've had to adjust to answer important queries (outside of the 9-5 or not).

The idea of keeping Flexi when ppl could log on at 8 and then log out at 7, without any supervision or verification of the actual work requirement, potentially netting them a further 1.5 days of AL a month, is absolutely ridiculous.



People across the system are not as busy as usual and now cribbing because they won't be able to claim unverified OT (albeit in the form of.time in lieu) leaves a terrible taste.

Just for clarification, I for one am clocking my normal day while working from home, it's hard to fathom how anyone would/could clock additional time in order to accrue additional flexi leave, I also go to work a couple of days each week, there is a roster system in place to adhere to social distancing. Anyone with a conscience would not be accruing additional leave now.

Nigel Fairservice

august12 wrote: »

Just for clarification, I for one am clocking my normal day while working from home, it's hard to fathom how anyone would/could clock additional time in order to accrue additional flexi leave, I also go to work a couple of days each week, there is a roster system in place to adhere to social distancing. Anyone with a conscience would not be accruing additional leave now.

I don't have a problem with flexi being put on hold either. It's not like people have things to do or places to go right now to justify building it up anyway. Not having to travel to work is giving me back 30 minutes a day anyway...not that I even need it with the abundance of time.

turbodiesel

Totally agree with Flexi being suspended for the moment, one exception is that is you previously have a pattern of building/working flexi due to workload and it hasn't changed. Otherwise it's open to abuse by a minority who would feck it up for everyone else.

beauf

Reputable Rog wrote: »

The issues weren’t local, they were widespread across the public sector and across the country.

What issues? I'm not talking about the current crisis but about unions in general.

beauf

noodler wrote: »

...The idea that you are as busy at the monent as you would be in work is stretching it....

A lot of people aren't busy true. But it depends on where you work. I know quite a few people public and private who are the busiest they've ever been. They are having to put in a lot of extra hours.

But there's more to it than that. Some people might not be able to work as much during the middle of the day due to having small kids etc. They will probably Make up this time in the evenings or at the weekend. The flexitime systems in place probably can't accommodate that anyway.

So there are practical considerations also.

noodler

beauf wrote: »

A lot of people aren't busy true. But it depends on where you work. I know quite a few people public and private who are the busiest they've ever been. They are having to put in a lot of extra hours.

But there's more to it than that. Some people might not be able to work as much during the middle of the day due to having small kids etc. They will probably Make up this time in the evenings or at the weekend. The flexitime systems in place probably can't accommodate that anyway.

So there are practical considerations also.

In the example you've outlined, where somebody is at home with kids, yeah they can work whenever they want.

It's clear enough this has been done to stop people claiming spurious flexi.

beauf

How much can people abuse it?

There are limits to how much Flexi time you can build up. Over a month it's probably a day or two. And you probably can't carry much of it forward. So even when the lock down ends there will not be a massive backlog of Flexi leave to be taken.

I assume. Maybe there's some other angle I'm missing.

noodler

beauf wrote: »

How much can people abuse it?

There are limits to how much Flexi time you can build up. Over a month it's probably a day or two. And you probably can't carry much of it forward. So even when the lock down ends there will not be a massive backlog of Flexi leave to be taken.

I assume. Maybe there's some other angle I'm missing.

An automatic 1.5 day extra AL for every single 4 week period this goes on.

This would be on too of the fact, and few will admit it, but plenty are already on de facto AL at the moment given a decreased workload or an inability to work at home (leaving aside any scoving that might be ongoing).

Bear in mind in other organizations, people are being asked to use AL during this period, having PS workers actually earn it because Flexi can't be policed would be serious moral hazard.

AulWan

noodler wrote: »

It's a little depressing to see the attitude of some on here when over half a million people have lost their jobs in the last month and everyone else is pulling together.

The idea that you are as busy at the monent as you would be in work is stretching it.

The idea of keeping Flexi when ppl could log on at 8 and then log out at 7, without any supervision or verification of the actual work requirement, potentially netting them a further 1.5 days of AL a month, is absolutely ridiculous.

I know I've had to adjust to answer important queries (outside of the 9-5 or not).

People across the system are not as busy as usual and now cribbing because they won't be able to claim unverified OT (albeit in the form of.time in lieu) leaves a terrible taste.

Do you know whats depressing? The way the people like you immediately turn on the public service when times are tough.

Noodler, you know nothing of my current work situation. I am currently covering for several staff members in my section who do not have remote access or who can't work regular core time hours at the moment due to their childminding responsibilities.

I have, in fact, genuinely worked up extra hours in the last four weeks, in order to keep things ticking over. My working hours can be verified as I am back and forth with my supervisor and other colleagues during the day, constantly. There are ways of tracking work hours through online activity and the portal that allows us to access work systems. It times out after 20 minutes of inactivity. I work in a fully paperless office - everything we can do at our desks, can be done electronically. Two people in my office have also been selected for redeployment, and their work will have to be covered. I worked one day a week at home before this crisis, so am well into the way of it.

As of this coming Tuesday, I will strictly work my required hours. If there is anything not done in that time, it can wait to the next day. And I make no apologies for that. I'm one of those whose pay was not restored after the last round of austerity, and I guess we'll be targetted again to pay for this mess, the way we paid for the last one.

So maybe think before you assume people are not busy because they are at home.

noodler

AulWan wrote: »

Do you know whats depressing? The way the people like you immediately turn on the public service when times are tough.

Noodler, you know nothing of my current work situation. I am currently covering for several staff members in my section who do not have remote access or who can't work regular core time hours at the moment due to their childminding responsibilities.

I have, in fact, genuinely worked up extra hours in the last four weeks, in order to keep things ticking over. My working hours can be verified as I am back and forth with my supervisor and other colleagues during the day, constantly. There are ways of tracking work hours through online activity and the portal that allows us to access work systems. It times out after 20 minutes of inactivity. I work in a fully paperless office - everything we can do at our desks, can be done electronically. Two people in my office have also been selected for redeployment, and their work will have to be covered. I worked one day a week at home before this crisis, so am well into the way of it.

As of this coming Tuesday, I will strictly work my required hours. If there is anything not done in that time, it can wait to the next day. And I make no apologies for that. I'm one of those whose pay was not restored after the last round of austerity, and I guess we'll be targetted again to pay for this mess, the way we paid for the last one.

So maybe think before you assume people are not busy because they are at home.

Thanks but as a public sector worker, I find your attitude incredibly disappointing.

Other parts of the service are pulling together and you are "doing the minimum hours required" out of some sort of protest. Again, around 700,000 more people claiming COVID payments in the last month.

I'll have you know there were about 20bn of expenditure cuts in the last recession and only about 1-1.5bn fell on the public sector pay. So the idea you somehow have exclusive ownership to the scars of the last recession is beyond precious and downright delusional.

We have had pay increases every year since 2016 as well as increments and job security.


You do you, the sad thing is there few consequences for the few who adopt, and even advocate on a public message forum, a work to rule policy in the current crisis.

Don't for a second say the public sector are being attacked though because that is a weak soundbite. Thousands are doing additional hours, redeploying into contact tracing and other areas and even risking their lives so don't pretend they are the people I am criticising.

customerunhap

I am a public servant who has been following this thread with interest.
Basically, I have been put forward for re-deployment, no problem with it were it not for the fact that my partner in same boat, and we have no childcare provision.
I contacted my trade union who have been useless, couldn’t answer any questions on this specific childcare issue, bar referring me to latest circulars etc.
I never contact them, pay my sub each week and when it comes to something they’ve no interest.
My read of it is that the new redeployed public sector post employer should be as flexible as possible, but if you have no childcare, are they obliged to give you work you can do online/over computer?
I have yet to be told where I am going work wise, but wanted to get a steer on what happens if they say you are 9-5 in X office? Are we then in a situation where I am forced to take unpaid leave etc?
Much appreciated any advice from existing public servants.

Addle

I think don’t waste your energy on what ifs and wait until you’re actually redeployed to ask a definite question and get a definite answer.

I know contact tracing operatives can work evenings and weekends.

Civil Service offices are being exceptionally flexible about working hours, and working from home, so working up flexi is pointless now anyways.
Anyone I know wants to be useful in the current situation. We all want to do our bit.

AulWan

noodler wrote: »

Thanks but as a public sector worker, I find your attitude incredibly disappointing.

Other parts of the service are pulling together and you are "doing the minimum hours required" out of some sort of protest. Again, around 700,000 more people claiming COVID payments in the last month.

I'll have you know there were about 20bn of expenditure cuts in the last recession and only about 1-1.5bn fell on the public sector pay. So the idea you somehow have exclusive ownership to the scars of the last recession is beyond precious and downright delusional.

We have had pay increases every year since 2016 as well as increments and job security.


You do you, the sad thing is there few consequences for the few who adopt, and even advocate on a public message forum, a work to rule policy in the current crisis.

Don't for a second say the public sector are being attacked though because that is a weak soundbite. Thousands are doing additional hours, redeploying into contact tracing and other areas and even risking their lives so don't pretend they are the people I am criticising.

So what do you call those who are working hard to cover for other staff, if its not "pulling together"? That is quite insulting to those of us who are working hard, but because it's at home you assume we're not busy or slacking off.

I'm not implementing any work to rule out of protest. I have no issue with flexi being suspended (I said this early on) but seeing as management decided to suspend it, I will be working my required hours, and avoiding accruing extra, as we've been instructed to do.

I don't have to justify that to you. But I will not be sweating over my keyboard working extra hours for people like you who obviously wouldn't appreciate the effort, anyway.

Maybe look to your own attitude.

Reputable Rog

beauf wrote: »

What issues? I'm not talking about the current crisis but about unions in general.

Overcrowded offices, no provision for social distancing, public counters open, management insisting on meetings with the public continuing, government refusing to pause the planning system, offices not being cleaned properly, need I go on?

noodler

AulWan wrote: »

So what do you call those who are working hard to cover for other staff, if its not "pulling together"? That is quite insulting to those of us who are working hard, but because it's at home you assume we're not busy or slacking off.

I'm not implementing any work to rule out of protest. I have no issue with flexi being suspended (I said this early on) but seeing as management decided to suspend it, I will be working my required hours, and avoiding accruing extra, as we've been instructed to do.

I don't have to justify that to you. But I will not be sweating over my keyboard working extra hours for people like you who obviously wouldn't appreciate the effort, anyway.

Maybe look to your own attitude.

Oh god, you continue to try and equate my criticism of you (or those adopting a similar mindset) with criticism for the wider public sector.

I won't continue to engage in that basis.

We will leave it there.

beauf

noodler wrote: »

An automatic 1.5 day extra AL for every single 4 week period this goes on.

This would be on too of the fact, and few will admit it, but plenty are already on de facto AL at the moment given a decreased workload or an inability to work at home (leaving aside any scoving that might be ongoing).

Bear in mind in other organizations, people are being asked to use AL during this period, having PS workers actually earn it because Flexi can't be policed would be serious moral hazard.

It's not an "extra" AL. It's that you've spread the same number of hours over less days. Very different.

Also some people have worked from home on Flexi for years. It's not a new situation.

Not only can you not police Flexi time you can't police 9-5 either. Clock watching is not a valid means to manage productivity unless your providing cover of some sort which requires physical presence.

What they are saying it makes no sense to do any of this when peoples normal routine is entirely disrupted.

I know some people who only have one computer at home no home office and small kids. They take turns in working and minding the kids. Make up time when they can. It's unreasonable to expect both to work 9-5 or the fixed periods in a Flexi.

beauf

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Overcrowded offices, no provision for social distancing, public counters open, management insisting on meetings with the public continuing, government refusing to pause the planning system, offices not being cleaned properly, need I go on?

Not really because it has nothing to do with what I said.

beauf

AulWan wrote: »

I won't work up extra hours while flexi time is suspended. I'll just do my required number of hours + lunch.

This really has nothing to do with redeployment.

Maybe a mod will spilt the the thread.

AulWan

noodler wrote: »

Oh god, you continue to try and equate my criticism of you (or those adopting a similar mindset) with criticism for the wider public sector.

I won't continue to engage in that basis.

We will leave it there.

No, we will leave it here.

**** you and your judgemental attitude.

noodler

beauf wrote: »

It's not an "extra" AL. It's that you've spread the same number of hours over less days. Very different.

Also some people have worked from home on Flexi for years. It's not a new situation.

I thought I was clear enough that the additional AL would be from Flexi earned rather spuriously. That's the nice way of putting it.

Re: your point about a small fraction of the PS working from home already. I am afraid that doesn't really matter. Currently the vast majority of the PS who can work at home are working at home.

Not only is that a colossal overnight change but the work for many, many people has reduced. So whilst workstreams, task management etc might be quite clear when it is a minority of workers working one day a week, it is clear it doesn't when a majority suddenly do it five days a week.

noodler

AulWan wrote: »

No, we will leave it here.

**** you and your judgemental attitude.

Charming.

I have already said what I wanted to about your own attitude about working to rule whilst there is a national crisis.

I've struck a nerve.

AulWan

noodler wrote: »

Charming.

I have already said what I wanted to about your own attitude about working to rule whilst there is a national crisis.

I've struck a nerve.

There is no work to rule - you obviously don't know what a work-to-rule-is.

I have been working ten hour days for the last month, keeping my section going, keeping suppliers paid, keeping contractors paid, so I feel I am justified by being very offended by your comments.

You have not got a clue what you are talking about.

Following management instruction on the suspension of flexi time, I will no longer be working any more ten hour days from Tuesday but will be working regular hours.

If you've got a problem with that, that's your problem.

noodler

AulWan wrote: »

There is no work to rule - you obviously don't know what a work-to-rule-is..

I have been working ten hour days for the last month, keeping my section going, keeping suppliers paid, keeping contractors paid, so I feel I am justified by being very offended by your comments.

You have not got a clue what you are talking about.

Following management instruction on the suspension of flexi time, I will no longer be working anymore ten hour days but will be working regular hours.

If you've got a problem with that, that's your problem.

Ok, fine.

beauf

noodler wrote: »

I thought I was clear enough that the additional AL would be from Flexi earned rather spuriously. That's the nice way of putting it.

Re: your point about a small fraction of the PS working from home already. I am afraid that doesn't really matter. Currently the vast majority of the PS who can work at home are working at home.

Not only is that a colossal overnight change but the work for many, many people has reduced. So whilst workstreams, task management etc might be quite clear when it is a minority of workers working one day a week, it is clear it doesn't when a majority suddenly do it five days a week.

Lets take your inference that these people are sitting at home nothing to do and go full hyperbole.

So say someone has no work and is sitting at home for a month with nothing to do. They work up 1.5 days of FL. Another person sitting at home with nothing to do doesn't work up this 1.5.

So for those 1.5 days. Both have nothing to do. Whats the difference in the real world.