Rights on Notice of Redeployment in Public Sector

AulWan wrote: »

Two in my section (that I have been covering for!) have been redeployed for contact tracing. Not in our own offices but in other locations.

The work is being done in different shifts, I think 8am-2pm and 2pm-10pm. So while one shift might not suit, the other might be possible for someone with kids.

I was told DSP work could not be done remotely.

It would depend if someone else in the household can do their job and cover childcare. In theory they could both have to do the same shift.

As some said earlier in that case they would have to go on unpaid leave for 2-3 months.

noodler wrote: »

I guess that's a bit like saying, what's charm if someone takes the max uncertified sick leave (again agreeing that the Flexi wasnt 'legitimately' earned) You could argue what's the harm if said employee does nothing anyway. But a cost actually was put on that (for the purposes of what would be saved when the allowable uncertified sick leave was reduced from 7 days a year to 7 days over a two year period). I can't remember the figures, and you could argue about whether these were cash savings that were fully realised.

Nevertheless your example is as you say, hyperbole, and doing less than usual is still not nothing. One problem I would see is people building Flexi when it is not busy and then utilising it when things are busier.

I admit we are in strange times, and obviously you aren't advocating additional free leave for people doing nothing anyway, but it is a very reductive way of looking at it.

Well you are factually wrong. It's not free leave. No matter how often you repeat this incorrectly.

You request leave, so if it doesn't suit the business needs it can be refused. If so your staff end up on leave at the same time that's the managers responsibility.

This has nothing to sick leave. Even if it was there are rules and regulations around that also. But that's a entirely different topic.

Basically you've avoided the question. If some one is doing nothing. What leave they take has no effect. You've got bigger issues than Flexi in that case.

But you're not really discussing leave. You're discussing performance and productivity just obliquely. That should not be measured by clock watching either, or by peoples physical presence. But many places do this no doubt.

Most places don't have proper metrics anyway. Many places are just realising this now. Maybe.

Two in my section (that I have been covering for!) have been redeployed for contact tracing. Not in our own offices but in other locations.

The work is being done in different shifts, I think 8am-2pm and 2pm-10pm. So while one shift might not suit, the other might be possible for someone with kids.

I was told DSP work could not be done remotely.

You might be able to juggle childcare or similar and work from home in your existing job. You might not if redeployed and not allowed to work from home.

I'm not sure people are getting that distinction.

Someone who is not doing anything, well that's entirely different. I'm not even sure that needs clarifying.

gauchesnell

why dont you move the person into a role that can be done remotely. Cant agree that their are thousands in the same position.

I am a public servant and would love to be redeployed but my whole sector isnt eligible (im in education). My work hasnt provided us admin with any work laptops and there is only a certain amount that can be done from home on a personal laptop. Management arent bothered about us.

Would gladly volunteer to move to take pressure off those that cant due to childcare/other issues but I cant. Maybe a volunteer register might work better.

customerunhap

In fairness, if it’s a public servant refusing the option of working from home via redeployment instead of going in, that’s not on.

What I am stating is if I am told be at an office 9-5 Mon Fri, and you aren’t providing any flexibility as an employer to work from home in light of no creches permitted open, that is totally unreasonable.

Addle

They will cut pay.

P2C

I am citing what a senior HR manager told me last week when enquiring about a staff member I line manage who has not come into work since the middle of March. The rest of the department have being attending work as they have been redeployed to setting up testing centres, contact training and admin in public health. This person original role has ceased and they were to be available for redeployment. They have refused those requests. Basically the person has done no work for a month. They are at home looking after their kids. The point from HR is that the circulars are for people who can and are suitable for working from home should work from home. This person is not in the category. That’s the position of the employer. I know it sounds harsh for all the reasons you stated. I was told their are 1000’s in the same position. The grievance process is the next step if they don’t take leave or parental leave. Be interesting to see if they cut pay in the next few months or will the unions intervene.

customerunhap

Is this a wind-up?
“I have seen loads of staff not coming into work since middle of March and citing childcare even though we are in the middle of a crisis and they have the skills to be in a position to help out.”
The reason people potentially can’t attend work is because the state has told childcare providers to close, and what’s astonishing is the trade union I am a member of (for now) have gone along with the re-deployment of their members without any planning from employers regarding childcare.
If I’m forced to take unpaid leave I will have to do so, I’ll lose out pay, the state will lose out tax wise and the first thing I’ll cut will be my trade union membership with Forsa as they’ve been useless to me regarding this matter when I sought advice.
I want to go along with re-deployment, should we just bring our kids along to work so, is that what you suggest?

P2C

If you have childcare issues and need to look after your kids during this crisis you probably will have to take parental leave/ special leave or reduced pay/ hours. If you’re not available for redeployment you’re not available for work. Unless your existing job is continuing and can be done remotely . I have seen loads of staff not coming into work since middle of March and citing childcare even though we are in the middle of a crisis and they have the skills to be in a position to help out.

jadie wrote: »

I’m also in this predicament and Forsa were no help to me. My workplace (public sector) does not have a deployment policy normally.

I am waiting to hear back from PAS but with childcare issues can really only work from home. I’m not sure if we have any rights. If we refuse is it a disciplinary matter?

AulWan wrote: »

With effect from 1 July 2014, the maximum amount of flexi leave allowed in any flexi period (4 weeks) is one day.

Increased back up to 1.5 a while ago.

Cork Lass

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Nothing understandable about it. The Unions have been deplorable.

I disagree with this. These are unprecedented times and the government has instructed that people be redeployed. What Union could possibly stand in the way of this. How would you feel if the teachers refused to go back into the schools in June and July should they reopen for the exams?

Stheno

mod can you ALL cut out the squabbling immediately or there will be further cards

beauf wrote: »

Lets take your inference that these people are sitting at home nothing to do and go full hyperbole.

So say someone has no work and is sitting at home for a month with nothing to do. They work up 1.5 days of FL. Another person sitting at home with nothing to do doesn't work up this 1.5.

So for those 1.5 days. Both have nothing to do. Whats the difference in the real world.

With effect from 1 July 2014, the maximum amount of flexi leave allowed in any flexi period (4 weeks) is one day.

beauf wrote: »

Lets take your inference that these people are sitting at home nothing to do and go full hyperbole.

So say someone has no work and is sitting at home for a month with nothing to do. They work up 1.5 days of FL. Another person sitting at home with nothing to do doesn't work up this 1.5.

So for those 1.5 days. Both have nothing to do. Whats the difference in the real world.

I guess that's a bit like saying, what's charm if someone takes the max uncertified sick leave (again agreeing that the Flexi wasnt 'legitimately' earned) You could argue what's the harm if said employee does nothing anyway. But a cost actually was put on that (for the purposes of what would be saved when the allowable uncertified sick leave was reduced from 7 days a year to 7 days over a two year period). I can't remember the figures, and you could argue about whether these were cash savings that were fully realised.

Nevertheless your example is as you say, hyperbole, and doing less than usual is still not nothing. One problem I would see is people building Flexi when it is not busy and then utilising it when things are busier.

I admit we are in strange times, and obviously you aren't advocating additional free leave for people doing nothing anyway, but it is a very reductive way of looking at it.

noodler wrote: »

I thought I was clear enough that the additional AL would be from Flexi earned rather spuriously. That's the nice way of putting it.

Re: your point about a small fraction of the PS working from home already. I am afraid that doesn't really matter. Currently the vast majority of the PS who can work at home are working at home.

Not only is that a colossal overnight change but the work for many, many people has reduced. So whilst workstreams, task management etc might be quite clear when it is a minority of workers working one day a week, it is clear it doesn't when a majority suddenly do it five days a week.

Lets take your inference that these people are sitting at home nothing to do and go full hyperbole.

So say someone has no work and is sitting at home for a month with nothing to do. They work up 1.5 days of FL. Another person sitting at home with nothing to do doesn't work up this 1.5.

So for those 1.5 days. Both have nothing to do. Whats the difference in the real world.

AulWan wrote: »

There is no work to rule - you obviously don't know what a work-to-rule-is..

I have been working ten hour days for the last month, keeping my section going, keeping suppliers paid, keeping contractors paid, so I feel I am justified by being very offended by your comments.

You have not got a clue what you are talking about.

Following management instruction on the suspension of flexi time, I will no longer be working anymore ten hour days but will be working regular hours.

If you've got a problem with that, that's your problem.

Ok, fine.

noodler wrote: »

Charming.

I have already said what I wanted to about your own attitude about working to rule whilst there is a national crisis.

I've struck a nerve.

There is no work to rule - you obviously don't know what a work-to-rule-is.

I have been working ten hour days for the last month, keeping my section going, keeping suppliers paid, keeping contractors paid, so I feel I am justified by being very offended by your comments.

You have not got a clue what you are talking about.

Following management instruction on the suspension of flexi time, I will no longer be working any more ten hour days from Tuesday but will be working regular hours.

If you've got a problem with that, that's your problem.

AulWan wrote: »

No, we will leave it here.

**** you and your judgemental attitude.

Charming.

I have already said what I wanted to about your own attitude about working to rule whilst there is a national crisis.

I've struck a nerve.

beauf wrote: »

It's not an "extra" AL. It's that you've spread the same number of hours over less days. Very different.

Also some people have worked from home on Flexi for years. It's not a new situation.

I thought I was clear enough that the additional AL would be from Flexi earned rather spuriously. That's the nice way of putting it.

Re: your point about a small fraction of the PS working from home already. I am afraid that doesn't really matter. Currently the vast majority of the PS who can work at home are working at home.

Not only is that a colossal overnight change but the work for many, many people has reduced. So whilst workstreams, task management etc might be quite clear when it is a minority of workers working one day a week, it is clear it doesn't when a majority suddenly do it five days a week.

noodler wrote: »

Oh god, you continue to try and equate my criticism of you (or those adopting a similar mindset) with criticism for the wider public sector.

I won't continue to engage in that basis.

We will leave it there.

No, we will leave it here.

**** you and your judgemental attitude.

AulWan wrote: »

I won't work up extra hours while flexi time is suspended. I'll just do my required number of hours + lunch.

This really has nothing to do with redeployment.

Maybe a mod will spilt the the thread.

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Overcrowded offices, no provision for social distancing, public counters open, management insisting on meetings with the public continuing, government refusing to pause the planning system, offices not being cleaned properly, need I go on?

Not really because it has nothing to do with what I said.

noodler wrote: »

An automatic 1.5 day extra AL for every single 4 week period this goes on.

This would be on too of the fact, and few will admit it, but plenty are already on de facto AL at the moment given a decreased workload or an inability to work at home (leaving aside any scoving that might be ongoing).

Bear in mind in other organizations, people are being asked to use AL during this period, having PS workers actually earn it because Flexi can't be policed would be serious moral hazard.

It's not an "extra" AL. It's that you've spread the same number of hours over less days. Very different.

Also some people have worked from home on Flexi for years. It's not a new situation.

Not only can you not police Flexi time you can't police 9-5 either. Clock watching is not a valid means to manage productivity unless your providing cover of some sort which requires physical presence.

What they are saying it makes no sense to do any of this when peoples normal routine is entirely disrupted.

I know some people who only have one computer at home no home office and small kids. They take turns in working and minding the kids. Make up time when they can. It's unreasonable to expect both to work 9-5 or the fixed periods in a Flexi.

AulWan wrote: »

So what do you call those who are working hard to cover for other staff, if its not "pulling together"? That is quite insulting to those of us who are working hard, but because it's at home you assume we're not busy or slacking off.

I'm not implementing any work to rule out of protest. I have no issue with flexi being suspended (I said this early on) but seeing as management decided to suspend it, I will be working my required hours, and avoiding accruing extra, as we've been instructed to do.

I don't have to justify that to you. But I will not be sweating over my keyboard working extra hours for people like you who obviously wouldn't appreciate the effort, anyway.

Maybe look to your own attitude.

Oh god, you continue to try and equate my criticism of you (or those adopting a similar mindset) with criticism for the wider public sector.

I won't continue to engage in that basis.

We will leave it there.

Reputable Rog

beauf wrote: »

What issues? I'm not talking about the current crisis but about unions in general.

Overcrowded offices, no provision for social distancing, public counters open, management insisting on meetings with the public continuing, government refusing to pause the planning system, offices not being cleaned properly, need I go on?

noodler wrote: »

Thanks but as a public sector worker, I find your attitude incredibly disappointing.

Other parts of the service are pulling together and you are "doing the minimum hours required" out of some sort of protest. Again, around 700,000 more people claiming COVID payments in the last month.

I'll have you know there were about 20bn of expenditure cuts in the last recession and only about 1-1.5bn fell on the public sector pay. So the idea you somehow have exclusive ownership to the scars of the last recession is beyond precious and downright delusional.

We have had pay increases every year since 2016 as well as increments and job security.

You do you, the sad thing is there few consequences for the few who adopt, and even advocate on a public message forum, a work to rule policy in the current crisis.

Don't for a second say the public sector are being attacked though because that is a weak soundbite. Thousands are doing additional hours, redeploying into contact tracing and other areas and even risking their lives so don't pretend they are the people I am criticising.

So what do you call those who are working hard to cover for other staff, if its not "pulling together"? That is quite insulting to those of us who are working hard, but because it's at home you assume we're not busy or slacking off.

I'm not implementing any work to rule out of protest. I have no issue with flexi being suspended (I said this early on) but seeing as management decided to suspend it, I will be working my required hours, and avoiding accruing extra, as we've been instructed to do.

I don't have to justify that to you. But I will not be sweating over my keyboard working extra hours for people like you who obviously wouldn't appreciate the effort, anyway.

Maybe look to your own attitude.

Addle

I think don’t waste your energy on what ifs and wait until you’re actually redeployed to ask a definite question and get a definite answer.

I know contact tracing operatives can work evenings and weekends.

Civil Service offices are being exceptionally flexible about working hours, and working from home, so working up flexi is pointless now anyways.
Anyone I know wants to be useful in the current situation. We all want to do our bit.

customerunhap

I am a public servant who has been following this thread with interest.
Basically, I have been put forward for re-deployment, no problem with it were it not for the fact that my partner in same boat, and we have no childcare provision.
I contacted my trade union who have been useless, couldn’t answer any questions on this specific childcare issue, bar referring me to latest circulars etc.
I never contact them, pay my sub each week and when it comes to something they’ve no interest.
My read of it is that the new redeployed public sector post employer should be as flexible as possible, but if you have no childcare, are they obliged to give you work you can do online/over computer?
I have yet to be told where I am going work wise, but wanted to get a steer on what happens if they say you are 9-5 in X office? Are we then in a situation where I am forced to take unpaid leave etc?
Much appreciated any advice from existing public servants.