The Chinese Big Lie

2u2me

skellig_rocks wrote: »

But SARS was human to human transmissible. But China only officially said the Covid-19 is h2h transmission on 20 January. Why did China silence him?

It had to be verified. . Not all corona virus' are human to human transmissible. There was 2 mutations of about 32,000 base pairs that made this virus bind to ace receptors particularly well. The odds of that are astronimical, as with every genetic mutation.

fiveleavesleft

skellig_rocks wrote: »

But SARS was human to human transmissible. But China only officially said the Covid-19 is h2h transmission on 20 January. Why did China silence him?

That's why they put the patients in quarantine in the hospital right away. But it became clear to them this was not SARS it was something new & unknown.

2u2me

skellig_rocks wrote: »

20 March 2020, when the rest of the world are already in crisis. Sorry I think it is too late. Too many lives are already lost and can be prevented if China took Li's message seriously.

What do you mean MARCH 20th? The news was out on January 20th. The chinese shut up shop immediately as everyone was returning from new year travel.

BarryD2

s982102 wrote: »

This is why China is back to normal.

You must understand that it's pretty difficult for other states to accept this at face value. The reported Chinese cases and death rates rose steadily for a period of weeks and then 'bam', they suddenly plateaued.

This has not been the experience in any other country that we can have some confidence in the figures.

It's just not credible to believe that China stopped this virus in it's tracks over a matter of a few days.

Far more likely that it's still rampant in places with aggressive measures to isolate cases. But with many new cases and deaths, unreported.

The suspicion is that the Chinese authorities have put their economy first and see that their factories can make hay.

Is that not a fair & likely assessment of what's going on?

plodder

skellig_rocks wrote: »

This is only one shop from the Wuhan seafood wet market, but its price list didn't have bats as sellable items (I can read Chinese):

The wet market video I saw definitely had a stall laden with dead bats, for sale presumably. It might not have been Wuhan. But, that hardly matters. Bats are a "reservoir of coronaviruses", which potentially could make the jump to humans. And they are being sold to anyone who wants to buy them.

As regards the original subject of this thread, it seems China has one of the most comprehensive BCG vaccination programs, in terms of how far it goes back (to the 1930's). So, if BCG is really what it's being made out to be, then that could explain the general lower rate of deaths and severe infection there, maybe.

Are their stats believable? The worldometer graphs for China don't look that outrageous to me. But, I'm not an expert.

skellig_rocks

2u2me wrote: »

What do you mean MARCH 20th? The news was out on January 20th. The chinese shut up shop immediately as everyone was returning from new year travel.

This week it delivered its report, finding that Li had not disrupted public order, and that he was a professional who fought bravely and made sacrifices. However it reportedly maintained that Li had not verified the information before sending it, and it was “not consistent with the actual situation at the time”.

This week = 20 MARCH 2020, check the article you referenced.

Yurt!

Yurt! wrote: »

Not precisely, there's enough evidence now that the number of deaths (not to mention absolute infections) in China are complete sh*t. People are content to mount a naive defense of the CCP in the face of it, quite why I'm not sure.

You live in China, you'll be well aware of the CCP's relationship with the truth. As have I, and I'm not surprised that things are panning out this way.

I hate to do 'I told you so', it's not my style. But I would have been one of the posters in the early stages cautioning that the figures were likely a radical underestimate of the severity of things. Not just from my self-confessed suspicion of the CCP, but because I was in regular contact with people in mainland China, both expat in Chinese. They knew something was desperately wrong and still don't think the numbers are close to the truth of how bad it got.

Except, that I never trusted the figures coming out of China. As you said, I know how things work over there.

I did, however, believe in the possibility of Beijing being mistaken, using false reports given to them by local government... a rehash of the Great Leap. Just as possible as anything else.

Either way, there's never going to be definitive evidence of anything.

BarryD2

plodder wrote: »

Are their stats believable? The worldometer graphs for China don't look that outrageous to me. But, I'm not an expert.

What? These https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/china/

c75,000 cases between 19/01 and 19/02 - just 30 days

followed by just c.5,000 cases in the following c45 days?

We're expected to believe that new cases now are down to the odd 30 or 40 of expats coming back.

This in a country of c1.4 billion people? Where the virus had taken serious hold in parts?

Nobody looking at these reported figures could have any trust in them. It'd be a miracle, do they have some wonder drug for treating people, vaccinating them?

This has to be the big lie..

skellig_rocks

fiveleavesleft wrote: »

That's why they put the patients in quarantine in the hospital right away. But it became clear to them this was not SARS it was something new & unknown.

Problem was China didn't warn its population about the possible virus infections and instead just silence the messagers. Meanwhile because of Chinese new year was fast approaching, China didn't stop annual spring-festival migration of workers (5M left Wuhan before lockdown) and its spread the virus country-wide and worldwide. Also they didn't stop all the pre-festive celebrations (similar to our St. Patrick's day pride)



Well you could say China was a bit unlucky (happened just before Chinese new year, in the middle of winter, new virus, etc.). But things might be very different if China took Li's message serious (like Taiwan).

LessOutragePlz

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

Have you got any links to back up the claim that scientists have made it clear that the virus didn't come from a lab?

I don't need links. Simple Logic is enough.

And the fact that this is CA, and the conspiracy forum is

---

> that way.

I get the discussion over numbers. That's a reasonable discussion. Pushing this angle about the virus being engineered is agenda driven and full of bad taste.

So, nope. I'll be reporting any more pushing of that agenda on this thread. I rarely do so, but I've had enough conspiracy BS to last a lifetime since covid started.

It's China. You have not one shred of evidence to support the conspiracy, and neither does the host of articles/doctors. They remain opinions, lacking any evidence, but making assumptions and are generally not independently funded.

cryptocurrency

skellig_rocks wrote: »

I thought this guy knew about the disease in December 2019:

The eye doctor?

BarryD2

0 virus related deaths reported in China today on RTE News.

Surely long past time that our own national broadcaster considers carefully whether it's just a mouthpiece for what is highly likely to be Chinese propaganda?

Or are they grasping at straws? Look what the Chinese have done etc..

cryptocurrency

BarryD2 wrote: »

You must understand that it's pretty difficult for other states to accept this at face value. The reported Chinese cases and death rates rose steadily for a period of weeks and then 'bam', they suddenly plateaued.

This has not been the experience in any other country that we can have some confidence in the figures.

It's just not credible to believe that China stopped this virus in it's tracks over a matter of a few days.

Far more likely that it's still rampant in places with aggressive measures to isolate cases. But with many new cases and deaths, unreported.

The suspicion is that the Chinese authorities have put their economy first and see that their factories can make hay.

Is that not a fair & likely assessment of what's going on?

China is a disaster of a place with dirty wet markets and brutal maoist control techniques with a primitive government or it is a super sophisticated deceitful powerhouse who can hide huge waves of deaths from all the expats, social media, western reporters, dissidents, anti government types and general public and roll out a carade of normality in shops across the land and re-pump the skies with all the pollution to really sell the illusion.

Which is it? Commie shambles or imperial army led by darth vader?

Who has the tin foil hat on?

mouldybiscuits

In today's world when looking at news you really need think and consider who does this news benefit. Could there be a hidden agenda behind this. If there can be then it should be taken with a grain of salt as it is likely only a partial truth. This goes for Western media as much as any other nation's media. People like to comment on how brainwashed people are in North Korea but we should take a strong look at our own media as the propaganda is more subtle but still very effective at fooling us.

cryptocurrency

BarryD2 wrote: »

0 virus related deaths reported in China today on RTE News.

Surely long past time that our own national broadcaster considers carefully whether it's just a mouthpiece for what is highly likely to be Chinese propaganda?

Or are they grasping at straws? Look what the Chinese have done etc..

Highly likely? so you don't know, you just presume, based on a subconsious bias.

Very good.

All the info coming out of China, would indicate you don't have a clue.

PhilipsR

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/china/

Never having more than 150 deaths in a day is enough of a reason to believe China are being disingenuous.

cryptocurrency

PhilipsR wrote: »

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/china/

Never having more than 150 deaths in a day is enough of a reason to believe China are being disingenuous.

So mnay factors here. Don't they say viral load, more exposure the more powerful it is in the person. for busy cities Chinese generally home birds anyway.

Health is a major factor. They don't have the level of fatties, diabetics, cardio vascular people.

I suggest you look at the demographical breakdown too, it raises some interesting results. Some more susceptible the others.

bob mcbob

cryptocurrency wrote: »

So mnay factors here. Don't they say viral load, more exposure the more powerful it is in the person. for busy cities Chinese generally home birds anyway.

Health is a major factor. They don't have the level of fatties, diabetics, cardio vascular people.

I suggest you look at the demographical breakdown too, it raises some interesting results. Some more susceptible the others.

Iran, one of the very few friends China has, called their numbers "a sick joke".

No one believes them not even the Chinese people.

CCP are desperate to get back to "business as usual"when this ends.

Good luck with that.

LessOutragePlz

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't need links. Simple Logic is enough.

And the fact that this is CA, and the conspiracy forum is

---

> that way.

I get the discussion over numbers. That's a reasonable discussion. Pushing this angle about the virus being engineered is agenda driven and full of bad taste.

So, nope. I'll be reporting any more pushing of that agenda on this thread. I rarely do so, but I've had enough conspiracy BS to last a lifetime since covid started.

It's China. You have not one shred of evidence to support the conspiracy, and neither does the host of articles/doctors. They remain opinions, lacking any evidence, but making assumptions and are generally not independently funded.

I never stated nor claimed that it was engineered in a lab!

Granted I should have said research lab instead of lab that's my mistake I'm not saying the virus was man made.

Go back and read my posts on this thread I said that there is a possibility that it escaped from a (research) lab. As it's a known fact that there is a research lab 300 yards from the wet market where the outbreak reportedly started.

Therefore, there is a possibility that one of the researchers working on bats in that research lab was infected with the coronavirus and subsequently went onto to infect others. As they were known to have been researching bats in that research lab.

This isn't some nut job conspiracy theory there are news outlets carrying this story and not some tiny little one man news outlets either.

Just because you don't believe it to be a possibility doesn't mean it can't potentially be true and given the context of the thread which is China lying about the virus it is a very relevant discussion because it shows that they could potentially be lying about the origin of the virus.

cryptocurrency

bob mcbob wrote: »

Iran, one of the very few friends China has, called their numbers "a sick joke".

No one believes them not even the Chinese people.

CCP are desperate to get back to "business as usual"when this ends.

Good luck with that.

Can't see how this will damage them anymore then anyone else.

beauf

cryptocurrency wrote: »

China is a disaster of a place with dirty wet markets and brutal maoist control techniques with a primitive government or it is a super sophisticated deceitful powerhouse who can hide huge waves of deaths from all the expats, social media, western reporters, dissidents, anti government types and general public and roll out a carade of normality in shops across the land and re-pump the skies with all the pollution to really sell the illusion.

Which is it? Commie shambles or imperial army led by darth vader?

Who has the tin foil hat on?

Both? Both those things are not mutually exclusive.

bob mcbob

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Can't see how this will damage them anymore then anyone else.

Yes your probably right, the CCP don't care about anything or anyone except staying in power.

We finally agree on something :-)

2u2me

skellig_rocks wrote: »

This week = 20 MARCH 2020, check the article you referenced.

Maybe I'm misreading your statement. I assumed you were talking about releasing the information about the virus to the world which happened on 20th Jan. It seems you were talking about clearing the name of Li.

skellig_rocks wrote: »

20 March 2020, when the rest of the world are already in crisis. Sorry I think it is too late. Too many lives are already lost and can be prevented if China took Li's message seriously.

Indeed that happened in 20th March, but considering the circumstances(international crisis) it's somewhat understandable.

beauf

cryptocurrency wrote: »

So mnay factors here. Don't they say viral load, more exposure the more powerful it is in the person. for busy cities Chinese generally home birds anyway.

Health is a major factor. They don't have the level of fatties, diabetics, cardio vascular people.

I suggest you look at the demographical breakdown too, it raises some interesting results. Some more susceptible the others.

China has vastly better numbers than countries with far healthier population, far better life expectancy and far better health services.

2u2me

beauf wrote: »

China has vastly numbers than countries with far healthier population, far better life expectancy and far better health services.

Over the last 2 decades they've grown the largest middle class ever seen.

cryptocurrency

beauf wrote: »

China has vastly numbers than countries with far healthier population, far better life expectancy and far better health services.

Smoking is the big one on China.

From the numbers that are dying in Europe, a lot are elderly and many, we will wait and see, are marked as Covid19 but could be other issues.

Man has heart attack in hospital and dies "after testing positve for covid19" is not the same as man dies of covid19

cryptocurrency

2u2me wrote: »

Over the last 2 decades they've grown the largest middle class ever seen.

Yes and their numbers will always be skewed on average due to the poverty of the hinterlands.

Which is also why, the ship has sailed to just put them back in their box. The deglobalised world where nations try to move manufacturing from China back home will only see us pay more for stuff and lots of it will be rubbish. Imagine trying to get a group of people from Rochdale who have been on universal credit for 15 years to do low end manufacturing and pay them what they expect.

China doesn't care, it's internal market is a few EU's.

LessOutragePlz

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

This isn't some nut job conspiracy theory there are news outlets carrying this story and not some tiny little one man news outlets either.

Western media has zero credibility with me because they often exaggerate or show their bias in how they report things. Remember the Invasion of Iraq? Their take on feminsm vs male rights? Domestic abuse? etc.

Western media are run as businesses and as such, their ethics are questionable. Based on past behavior.

So you have one solid piece of evidence? Nope. Does the western media? Nope. They have opinions by "experts" or political figures. I love the way that people would have dismissed the media reports before the Virus, but now, the media is a beacon of journalistic integrity.

It's a theory. It has no evidence to support it, beyond that there is a virus lab in Wuhan. That's it.

And as such, until there is real and proven evidence... this kind of thing should be kept in the conspiracy forum. I knew people who are dead because of this virus. I've found out that three of my students are dead. So, no. I have zero patience for this BS.

It's off taste and frankly, disgusting, the way the internet and media swarms around things like this.

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

I never stated nor claimed that it was engineered in a lab!

Just because you don't believe it to be a possibility doesn't mean it can't potentially be true and given the context of the thread which is China lying about the virus it is a very relevant discussion because it shows that they could potentially be lying about the origin of the virus.

You don't see your own dancing? I'm not promoting the conspiracy, but it's "possible", so we should discuss it.

If you want to have a proper discussion about China, I'm game. I'm not interested in promoting conspiracies.

beauf

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Smoking is the big one on China.

From the numbers that are dying in Europe, a lot are elderly and many, we will wait and see, are marked as Covid19 but could be other issues.

Man has heart attack in hospital and dies "after testing positve for covid19" is not the same as man dies of covid19

The point is their numbers are not credible. Still even with fabricated numbers you can read between the lines.

cryptocurrency

beauf wrote: »

The point is their numbers are not credible. Still even with fabricated numbers you can read between the lines.

What would you think it credible and why? Do you base it on what you want them to have to make you feel better about the mess europe has made of it or do you look at the asian region?