The Chinese Big Lie

Bushmaster64

2u2me wrote: »

How do you figure that? Look at how Taiwan handled the situation.

It's like being attacked by a very slowly moving attack dog. You could take measures to move out of the way and avoid this very slowly approaching dog, or you could stand there let it bite you and then blame the owner(and completely avoid your own responsibility). I'd prefer to move out of the way myself.

One of the reasons why Taiwan got the head start was because they didn't trust a single thing the Chinese said and didn't listen to the WHO's advice.

Whereas we in the west were nodding along to the nonsense WHO statements parroting the CCP.

skellig_rocks

Bushmaster64 wrote: »

One of the reasons why Taiwan got the head start was because they didn't trust a single thing the Chinese said and didn't listen to the WHO's advice.

Whereas we in the west were nodding along to the nonsense WHO statements parroting the CCP.

Well said!

2u2me

Bushmaster64 wrote: »

One of the reasons why Taiwan got the head start was because they didn't trust a single thing the Chinese said and didn't listen to the WHO's advice.

Whereas we in the west were nodding along to the nonsense WHO statements parroting the CCP.

You cannot blame China for the inaction of other governments.

China announced to the world on Jan 20th human to human transmission. US banned travel from china on February 2nd and were one of the first.

Blame them all you want for other things, for being the origin of this virus, covering up for the first couple of weeks.

But you cannot blame them for the inaction and unpreparedness of other goverments.

I think the Chinese minister comes across well here; what do you think.

punisher5112

Borris moved to intensive care, his inaction may well cost his life!!!

Why in hell was he so blatant and still shaking hands and that of those infected...

2u2me

punisher5112 wrote: »

Borris moved to intensive care, his inaction may well cost his life!!!

Why in hell was he so blatant and still shaking hands and that of those infected...

China's fault.

cryptocurrency

2u2me wrote: »

China's fault.

yeah, every last one of them from Jakata to Sinkers. All Chinese, their fault.

Jeysus

cryptocurrency

2u2me wrote: »

You cannot blame China for the inaction of other governments.

China announced to the world on Jan 20th human to human transmission. US banned travel from china on February 2nd and were one of the first.

Blame them all you want for other things, for being the origin of this virus, covering up for the first couple of weeks.

But you cannot blame them for the inaction and unpreparedness of other goverments.

I think the Chinese minister comes across well here; what do you think.

In fairness he comes across excellent and makes the Sky presenter look like Alex Jones from Infowars. Totally disarms him though.

Mysteriouschic

According to the Chinese Minister the cause has not yet been found . It's a new virus should just let the scientists find what it is.
It doesn't seem to be the wet market causing this after all.
He didn't seem to be very certain about the wet markets staying closed only they are closed now etc.

cryptocurrency

Mysteriouschic wrote: »

According to the Chinese Minister the cause has not yet been found . It's a new virus should just let the scientists find what it is.
It doesn't seem to be the wet market causing this after all.
He didn't seem to be very certain about the wet markets staying closed only they are closed now etc.

Wet Markets are fine, it is about controling what is sold in them

Beechwoodspark

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Klaz just to say you took my post yest eve up wrong

I meant you are listing impediments to a wet market ban in China.

Apologies if it wasn’t clear.

No worries. I'm often quite thick.

I'm not against the banning of wet markets. I'm against these rants which are so unrealistic and impractical. I'd prefer to see some level-headed thinking in the discussions about it, and I have gotten some. Not much, but some.

No skin off the worlds nose. As someone else said let the west relocate it’s manufacturing etc to the likes of Vietnam.

Personally, I love Vietnam, but I wouldn't be so quick to replace China with them. They have their own issues, and have their own anti-western sentiment.

TBH, the West should be looking to relocate back to Europe/US rather than outsourcing to Asia or Africa. The world has become too unstable, and the trend suggests that will continue for the next few decades.

Let china go back to being a pariah state until the funds are forthcoming.

They never stopped being a pariah state. See... this is the thing I actually admire about the Chinese. They remember. Sure, they change crap but so too do western nations. However, the point is that they remember all the criticisms and negative remarks made by western governments or western media... and there's been a lot.

I've done classes where I've given my students free rein to collate all anti-Chinese material, and to present logical presentations (the purpose being to emphasise critical thinking), and it's an eye opener. I doubt there's any nation that is on the receiving end of so much criticism than China... Perhaps the USSR during the cold war, but even then, I doubt it. Whereas westerners, because we're so used to western media, shrug off those articles and forget them. The Chinese don't.

We are beyond the point of patience at this stage.

Not that you will care but I have encountered ferocious levels of anger aimed directly at China among my family, friends and wider network

Err... It doesn't bother me in the slightest. My own parents really dislike China. They're so so when it comes to Chinese people, and have always hated that I lived there. But then, there's a lot of willful ignorance at play too. They've always resisted coming to China to have their bubble popped.

Mysteriouschic

Mysteriouschic wrote: »

According to the Chinese Minister the cause has not yet been found . It's a new virus should just let the scientists find what it is.
It doesn't seem to be the wet market causing this after all.
He didn't seem to be very certain about the wet markets staying closed only they are closed now etc.

The origin of Covid is still only a theory. Nothing has been proven yet, and all these articles are playing with words... Just as the origin of Ebola hasn't been proven yet. So, he's right that people (and politicians) should leave the scientists to their work, and stop spreading misinformation.

I know for a fact that there are two wet markets in Xi'an currently in operation, and one in Chongqing. Standard meats such as beef or Chicken, rather than the exotics that posters consider to be the norm.

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Wet Markets are fine, it is about controling what is sold in them

Not really. There are many ways to organise (or not organise) wet markets. And there rests the problem. Wet markets due to the nature of displaying the meats, the butchering, and the "disposal" of butchered animals, encourage a breeding ground for viruses/disease. Considering that in Asia, or Africa, every part of an animal is often used, different butchered parts (including the blood) are kept in unhygienic circumstances.

That's the problem with wet markets. The sale of exotic meats happens outside of wet markets too. Actually, the rich who are most interested in such meats, typically don't use the wet markets and pay for such items to be delivered directly to them.

The issue is twofold. The lack of hygienic/effective storage of butchered goods, and the sale of exotic meats for consumption. Wet markets are just an easier thing to manage.. since the hunting and sale of exotic meat is much more difficult to police.

2u2me

Look its the poor who frequent the wet markets not the rich. It's cheap and clean for the most part. Produce is slaughtered fresh in front of you with little need for refrigeration immediately.

It just removes the middle men of slaughter houses, butchers etc.. etc.. If it was so unhygienic people would stop using it because it would be making them ill...

It is WHAT is sold in the wet markets. Bats especially are reservoirs for many types of known corona virus and should never be let anywhere near one of these markets. I'm sure there are other animals to add to a ban list, bats in particular have been headling recently.

Yurt2

cryptocurrency wrote: »

In fairness he comes across excellent and makes the Sky presenter look like Alex Jones from Infowars. Totally disarms him though.

If you're impressed by a slippery communist party apparatchik avoiding direct answers to questions about a deadly serious matter that will likely change the course of history, you're easily impressed indeed.

The world deserves better answers than the above. The virology lab is starting to look a bit stinky, and in the absence of proper answers from the CCP, it cannot be discounted as the source. As the British government have already noted. Nothing Alex Jones about it (which is a lowball smear on the journo).

"We are so focussed on our search for truth we fail to consider how few actually want us to find it. But it is always there, whether we see it or not, whether we choose to or not. The truth doesn't care about our needs or wants, it doesn't care about our governments, our ideologies, our religions. It will lie in wait for all time and this at last is the gift of Chernobyl. Where I once would fear the cost of truth, now I only ask: what is the cost of lies"

2u2me

2u2me wrote: »

Look its the poor who frequent the wet markets not the rich. It's cheap and clean for the most part. Produce is slaughtered fresh in front of you with little need for refrigeration immediately.

Except that different butchers do different cuts, so an animal could be passed to multiple people before the customer has gotten everything they wanted. The meat is left out in the heat (or cold) on counters which only receive a token cleaning. You really should see the trails and gutters full of blood...

Wet markets are pretty damn disgusting places.

It just removes the middle men of slaughter houses, butchers etc.. etc.. If it was so unhygienic people would stop using it because it would be making them ill...

Ahh. No. They're cheap, which is why people go there. Let me give you an example. In China, with restaurants, you want to check two things before going in. First, that there's people inside, and secondly check the trees or corners nearby for vomit. Few regulations are followed by cooks, and there are massive differences in food quality... but many people will continue going to bad places, because they're cheap.

I don't think many posters here really understand what true poverty looks like. The poor in Ireland are essentially wealthy in comparison to the poor in China.

My university caters to mostly country people, and I get a lot of poor students. Their parents might be making as little as 1000 rmb a month working at odd jobs, with little permanence to their lives. I work 16 hours max a week, and I make 12k per month... and I'd be considered upper middle class. Thankfully education for then is completely free, and they just pay for their dormitories which are also subsidized, as are their books.

It is WHAT is sold in the wet markets. Bats especially are reservoirs for many types of known corona virus and should never be let anywhere near one of these markets. I'm sure there are other animals to add to a ban list, bats in particular have been headling recently.

Bats aren't sold in most wet markets. There are wet markets that cater to "famine" food. This is where you'd get the majority of weird or exotic meats, along with bugs or other oddities. Dome people like that stuff, most don't. Which is why they're not that common, although any decent sized city (6-9 million) will have a few such markets spread around. I know of one such market in Xi'an.. and another five markets that sell normal meats.

Most wet markets sell the same things that are sold in supermarkets. Beef, pork, fowl, etc. Standard meats. The difference is that the quality of the meat is actually better in the wet markets because it's coming direct from farms. The supermarkets have weird supply chains, and the quality is generally really bad... I tend to go to a western store for meat if I'm cooking at home. Really expensive, but they don't follow the usual Chinese system. I have used wet markets before for frog though, since I quite like a spicy frog noodle dish from Sichuan.

Yurt!

Yurt! wrote: »

If you're impressed by a slippery communist party apparatchik avoiding direct answers to questions about a deadly serious matter that will likely change the course of history, you're easily impressed indeed.

The world deserves better answers than the above. The virology lab is starting to look a bit stinky, and in the absence of proper answers from the CCP, it cannot be discounted as the source. As the British government have already noted. Nothing Alex Jones about it (which is a lowball smear on the journo).

Lets be honest here. Regardless of what the CCP said, you would discount their answers as being lies, and go with what you want to be true. I'm not saying you're wrong, but... it's a bit much to suddenly start suggesting that the CCP answering those questions would be enough. I'd doubt anything would be enough.

Your posts throughout this thread reinforce that impression.

Yurt2

Deleted User wrote: »

Lets be honest here. Regardless of what the CCP said, you would discount their answers as being lies, and go with what you want to be true. I'm not saying you're wrong, but... it's a bit much to suddenly start suggesting that the CCP answering those questions would be enough. I'd doubt anything would be enough.

Your posts throughout this thread reinforce that impression.

Not precisely, there's enough evidence now that the number of deaths (not to mention absolute infections) in China are complete sh*t. People are content to mount a naive defense of the CCP in the face of it, quite why I'm not sure.

You live in China, you'll be well aware of the CCP's relationship with the truth. As have I, and I'm not surprised that things are panning out this way.

I hate to do 'I told you so', it's not my style. But I would have been one of the posters in the early stages cautioning that the figures were likely a radical underestimate of the severity of things. Not just from my self-confessed suspicion of the CCP, but because I was in regular contact with people in mainland China, both expat in Chinese. They knew something was desperately wrong and still don't think the numbers are close to the truth of how bad it got.

cryptocurrency

Yurt! wrote: »

Not precisely, there's enough evidence now that the number of deaths (not to mention absolute infections) in China are complete sh*t. People are content to mount a naive defense of the CCP in the face of it, quite why I'm not sure.

You live in China, you'll be well aware of the CCP's relationship with the truth. As have I, and I'm not surprised that things are panning out this way.

I hate to do 'I told you so', it's not my style. But I would have been one of the posters in the early stages cautioning that the figures were likely a radical underestimate of the severity of things. Not just from my self-confessed suspicion of the CCP, but because I was in regular contact with people in mainland China, both expat in Chinese. They knew something was desperately wrong and still don't think the numbers are close to the truth of how bad it got.

I don't think they have a clue on the number of infections but then again I don't think they have a clue here or anywhere.

We do know that they have got on top of it and things are opening up. We also know that the virus was so well trained that it avoided the huge numbers of expats of all nations in China and their friends for fear of them using social media and their VPNs to publish any info that might highlight the huge numbers of deaths which have to be a muliple of the numbers in the west as their population is. Thats how this works right?

Data from other nations in the region are not to be counted or benchmarked against western deaths as that will help the narrative.

China has 1.4 billion people so using hardcore scientific logic it must be that they hide a million, zillion infections and 6 times the US number of deaths.

Yurt2

cryptocurrency wrote: »

I don't think they have a clue on the number of infections but then again I don't think they have a clue here or anywhere.

We do know that they have got on top of it and things are opening up. We also know that the virus was so well trained that it avoided the huge numbers of expats of all nations in China and their friends for fear of them using social media and their VPNs to publish any info that might highlight the huge numbers of deaths which have to be a muliple of the numbers in the west as their population is. Thats how this works right?

Data from other nations in the region are not to be counted or benchmarked against western deaths as that will help the narrative.

China has 1.4 billion people so using hardcore scientific logic it must be that they hide a million, zillion infections and 6 times the US number of deaths.

Some people do have a clue though. HK university researchers modelled about 250k infections by late February.

Intelligence agencies have a clue, they're saying the infections were vastly underplayed, and underplayed at an early stage. Taiwanese government had a clue, they were sounding the alarm bells about h2h transmission when the Chinese government were saying there was none.

It's a falsehood and wilfully plugging your ears to say that nobody has a clue. We know enough to say with confidence that both the infections and death rate reported were nonsense from an early juncture.

The definitive truth will out eventually, be it in a year or five years, and it'll look like a lot closer to what I'm saying I'd be happy to wager.

Edit: and just on expats, I'll say again, I was in contact with a number (and local Chinese) who were saying it's much more severe when a lot of people on here were pushing the #justaflu line.

cryptocurrency

Yurt! wrote: »

Some people do have a clue though. HK university researchers modelled about 250k infections by late February.

Intelligence agencies have a clue, they're saying the infections were vastly underplayed, and underplayed at an early stage. Taiwanese government had a clue, they were sounding the alarm bells about h2h transmission when the Chinese government were saying there was none.

It's a falsehood and wilfully plugging your ears to say that nobody has a clue. We know enough to say with confidence that both the infections and death rate reported were nonsense from an early juncture.

The definitive truth will out eventually, be it in a year or five years, and it'll look like a lot closer to what I'm saying I'd be happy to wager.

Edit: and just on expats, I'll say again, I was in contact with a number (and local Chinese) who were saying it's much more severe when a lot of people on here were pushing the #justaflu line.

Are these the same intelligence agencies who have been shown as useful as a chocolate teapot when it comes to advising their own nations about the virus.


the G7 nations sat on their hands for months and then were surprised when it unfolded in western europe and keep harping on about some two week window in early january. Excuse me if I think, looking at our current predicament, that they are full of it.

Yurt2

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Are these the same intelligence agencies who have been shown as useful as a chocolate teapot when it comes to advising their own nations about the virus.


the G7 nations sat on their hands for months and then were surprised when it unfolded in western europe and keep harping on about some two week window in early january. Excuse me if I think, looking at our current predicament, that they are full of it.

And the university of Hong Kong? The Taiwanese government? All full of it too?

LessOutragePlz

Would it make any difference if the virus did escape from a lab?

Would this be the first case of a virus coming from a research lab?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIHWaaJNktQ

cryptocurrency

Yurt! wrote: »

And the university of Hong Kong? The Taiwanese government? All full of it too?

Modeling infection numbers are neither here nor there. We are likely to have 100000 infections walking around here now.

The useless advise from January is an issue though.

cryptocurrency

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

Would it make any difference if the virus did escape from a lab?

Would this be the first case of a virus coming from a research lab?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIHWaaJNktQ

Watched the first line. Sue China, what piffle.

Yurt2

If boards existed in 1986, I'm pretty sure we'd find crypto setting out his stall to defend the Soviet Union's initial coverup sorry to say.

cryptocurrency

Yurt! wrote: »

If boards existed in 1986, I'm pretty sure we'd find crypto setting out his stall to defend the Soviet Union's initial coverup sorry to say.

I hate commies but I also hate spin. We are seeing a shocking and pathetic effort to project blame to cover one of the most incompetent responses to a crisis ever.

The more you swallow the spin the more you take your eye off the real issues that matter here long term. The real issues is how G7 nations can handle a crisis and an event that could happen any time. Evidence seen so far clearly suggests for all the lofty ideas we have about ourselves as global powers, we are behind the likes of Mongolia when the poop hits the fan.

LessOutragePlz

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Watched the first line. Sue China, what piffle.

Granted it is a ridiculous and untenable idea to sue China but he is merely stating what some uninformed people are suggesting. If you'd listened on for another a minute then you'd have heard that according to research done almost 60 witnesses have said that bats were not sold in the Wuhan wet market:

"According to municipal reports and the testimonies of 31 residents and 28 visitors, the bat was never a food source in the city, and no bat was traded in the market. There was possible natural recombination or an intermediate host of the coronavirus, yet little proof has been reported.”

Therefore, there is a possibility that the virus escaped from a research lab that is only 300 yards away from the entrance of the wet market.

cryptocurrency

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

Granted it is a ridiculous and untenable idea to sue China but he is merely stating what some uninformed people are suggesting. If you'd listened on for another a minute then you'd have heard that according to research done almost 60 witnesses have said that bats were not sold in the Wuhan wet market:

"According to municipal reports and the testimonies of 31 residents and 28 visitors, the bat was never a food source in the city, and no bat was traded in the market. There was possible natural recombination or an intermediate host of the coronavirus, yet little proof has been reported.”

Therefore, there is a possibility that the virus escaped from a research lab that is only 300 yards away from the entrance of the wet market.

aren't the scientists who have looked at the virus making it clear that this isn't a lab virus. I am sure if you look hard enough you will find a "scientist" who claims this is related to a 5g or even spice burger production

LessOutragePlz

cryptocurrency wrote: »

aren't the scientists who have looked at the virus making it clear that this isn't a lab virus. I am sure if you look hard enough you will find a "scientist" who claims this is related to a 5g or even spice burger production

Have you got any links to back up the claim that scientists have made it clear that the virus didn't come from a lab?

www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/how-did-covid-19-begin-its-initial-origin-story-is-shaky/2020/04/02/1475d488-7521-11ea-87da-77a8136c1a6d_story.html

According to a Washingtonpost article the labs in Wuhan don't have the best practices or equipment in place to safely perform research on the bats. This would suggest that it is not impossible that the virus escaped from a lab

"Richard Ebright, a Rutgers microbiologist and biosafety expert, told me in an email that “the first human infection could have occurred as a natural accident,” with the virus passing from bat to human, possibly through another animal. But Ebright cautioned that it “also could have occurred as a laboratory accident, with, for example, an accidental infection of a laboratory worker.” He noted that bat coronaviruses were studied in Wuhan at Biosafety Level 2, “which provides only minimal protection,” compared with the top BSL-4.

Ebright described a December video from the Wuhan CDC that shows staffers “collecting bat coronaviruses with inadequate [personal protective equipment] and unsafe operational practices.” Separately, I reviewed two Chinese articles, from 2017 and 2019, describing the heroics of Wuhan CDC researcher Tian Junhua, who while capturing bats in a cave “forgot to take protective measures” so that “bat urine dripped from the top of his head like raindrops."

s982102

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

Have you got any links to back up the claim that scientists have made it clear that the virus didn't come from a lab?

www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/how-did-covid-19-begin-its-initial-origin-story-is-shaky/2020/04/02/1475d488-7521-11ea-87da-77a8136c1a6d_story.html

According to a Washingtonpost article the labs in Wuhan don't have the best practices or equipment in place to safely perform research on the bats. This would suggest that it is not impossible that the virus escaped from a lab

"Richard Ebright, a Rutgers microbiologist and biosafety expert, told me in an email that “the first human infection could have occurred as a natural accident,” with the virus passing from bat to human, possibly through another animal. But Ebright cautioned that it “also could have occurred as a laboratory accident, with, for example, an accidental infection of a laboratory worker.” He noted that bat coronaviruses were studied in Wuhan at Biosafety Level 2, “which provides only minimal protection,” compared with the top BSL-4.

Ebright described a December video from the Wuhan CDC that shows staffers “collecting bat coronaviruses with inadequate [personal protective equipment] and unsafe operational practices.” Separately, I reviewed two Chinese articles, from 2017 and 2019, describing the heroics of Wuhan CDC researcher Tian Junhua, who while capturing bats in a cave “forgot to take protective measures” so that “bat urine dripped from the top of his head like raindrops."

Try this: https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2020/03/26/genomic-research-points-to-natural-origin-of-covid-19/


and


https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9


and many more if you google it..


It can't be assumed that all information released by US media is true as US is the opponent of China. This is just like you need to put a question mark on any news that Chinese media has posted. The information from both sides could be true or false.. Evidence is needed with some analysis..


Regardless what both sides are saying, it is true that western governments didn't prepare for this situation. They all thought the outbreak happened in China which is far away. They were sitting there with popcorn and watching instead of preparing for what was coming. The politicians then started to blame others instead of themselves which is what they are very good at.

cryptocurrency

s982102 wrote: »

Try this: https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2020/03/26/genomic-research-points-to-natural-origin-of-covid-19/


and


https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9


and many more if you google it..


It can't be assumed that all information released by US media is true as US is the opponent of China. This is just like you need to put a question mark on any news that Chinese media has posted. The information from both sides could be true or false.. Evidence is needed with some analysis..


Regardless what both sides are saying, it is true that western governments didn't prepare for this situation. They all thought the outbreak happened in China which is far away. They were sitting there with popcorn and watching instead of preparing for what was coming. The politicians then started to blame others instead of themselves which is what they are very good at.

Nailed it