Masks

Marhay70

Yes: valved

joeguevara wrote: »

Social anxiety is a disability recognised by the Equality Act. Becoming distressed when restricting breathing whether real or imagined in a large number of cases is a symptom of social anxiety, becoming too distressed to wear a mask is an exemption. So refusing someone could be considered discrimination on a disability. Now chances of that are slim, but that’s a reason that staff members are not taking the chance to challenge people. In reality, they don’t want to get in an argument.

Put up a sign quoting the legislation, no argument. The onus is on the person seeking dispensation from the legislation to prove eligibility.
My own opinion is that shop owners and managers only see the bottom line and put pressure on their staff to cooperate. This is particularly true of the type of shop mentioned, many of which would be staffed by zero hour contract workers but, as I say, that's my opinion.
.

Yes: surgical

Social anxiety can also be heightened for those who suffer with it and are compliant, but yet have to put up with other people in shops ignoring the mandatory mask rule or maintaining social distancing - another thing that is not being enforced well enough.

In my experience people with social anxiety try to maintain distance and minimise their interactions with other people. They're not going to go into a shop looking to draw attention to themselves by not wearing one, or arguing over wearing a mask.

suicide_circus

Out and about in Dublin city centre today and there is a noticeable decrease of mask wearing in shops.

suicide_circus

Marhay70 wrote: »

Put up a sign quoting the legislation, no argument. The onus is on the person seeking dispensation from the legislation to prove eligibility.
My own opinion is that shop owners and managers only see the bottom line and put pressure on their staff to cooperate. This is particularly true of the type of shop mentioned, many of which would be staffed by zero hour contract workers but, as I say, that's my opinion.
.

A shop assistant or manager is not in a position to demand documentation proving a disability.

joeguevara

This whole exemption thing is the craziest thing ever but also as it’s a completely new we followed other countries. Charities and Care Orgsnisations are coming up with novel ideas for a person with an exemption to show that they require it without bringing too much attention on themselves. Hidden Illness charity have a sunflower lanyard for people with autism.

But no one ever really followed through what happens next. No other disability really has the potential to harm others or be harmed yourself. For instance pre Covid no mask requirements if a person is in a wheelchair and you let them in their not going to Be any harm to others or themselves. Now in Covid, with masks, if a person has a severe lung incapacity and is exempt from wearing a mask, now They go in and get coughed on, they could potentially die. Or if they had Covid, they could go round transmittting infection. Surely if masks weren’t able to be worn, they should be offered a shopping service drop and collect. Equality is not about everyone doing exactly the same thing, it’s about offering extra assistance or arrangements to ensure that they have access to the same goods and services as someone not falling under.

It’s crazy that legislation allows people most vulnerable opportunities to put themselves in grave danger.

joeguevara

suicide_circus wrote: »

A shop assistant or manager is not in a position to demand documentation proving a disability.

Could you imagine some disbelieving shopkeepers proving disability like Michael Caine

https://youtu.be/14nilke-mtQ

suicide_circus

No: I don't care enough

suicide_circus wrote: »

A shop assistant or manager is not in a position to demand documentation proving a disability.

Says who?

If you park in a disabled parking space they are so why not for other reasons?

Saying otherwise is just making excuses and pandering to the anti-mask brigade.

Hand in Your Pants

Morans, so many morans everywhere, how dare they, idiots

moonage

Nickolas White Petroleum wrote: »

Absolute bull, anyone not wearing a mask should be fined unless they can prove with documented evidence that they are exempt.

In the legislation for public transport it is not stated that the passenger has to provide written documentation to back up their reasonable excuse.

2) Before exercising a power under paragraph (1) in respect of a passenger, a relevant person shall give the passenger an opportunity to provide reasonable excuse and may request the passenger to provide such information as the relevant person considers necessary to determine whether or not the passenger has reasonable excuse.

The legislation for shops seems less stingent.

4) A responsible person shall take reasonable steps to engage with persons entering or in the relevant premises to inform them of the requirements of paragraph (1) and to promote compliance with those requirements.

These mandatory face coverings regulations expire on the 5th October 2020. Hopefully they won't be renewed.

moonage

No: I don't care enough

moonage wrote: »

These mandatory face coverings regulations expire on the 5th October 2020. Hopefully they won't be renewed.

To me “reasonable excuse” would need to be backed up by a letter from a doctor or similar otherwise it’s not “reasonable”.

Hopefully they will be strengthened when they are renewed. Why on earth would you not want these important regulations renewed?

By 5th of October we could be very lightly looking at a lot more strict regulations or even lockdown after the outbreaks and spread caused by reopening schools.

is_that_so

No: other

moonage wrote: »

In the legislation for public transport it is not stated that the passenger has to provide written documentation to back up their reasonable excuse.




The legislation for shops seems less stringent.



These mandatory face coverings regulations expire on the 5th October 2020. Hopefully they won't be renewed.

As we stand now you could see them being extended another 28 days and more.

jackboy

Nickolas White Petroleum wrote: »

Hopefully they will be strengthened when they are renewed. Why on earth would you not want these important regulations renewed?

By 5th of October we could be very lightly looking at a lot more strict regulations or even lockdown after the outbreaks and spread caused by reopening schools.

If things are worse by October then the suppression strategy including masks has failed. We would then have to try something radically different such as try for zero Covid.

is_that_so

No: other

jackboy wrote: »

If things are worse by October then the suppression strategy including masks has failed. We would then have to try something radically different such as try for zero Covid.

It's not really a suppression strategy when people are spreading it at home. People will not stand for the red zone full lockdown approach that's implicit in it, not after 4-5 months of relative freedom. We may have localised ones and quite probably masks till January.

jackboy

is_that_so wrote: »

People will not stand for the red zone full lockdown approach that's implicit in it, not after 4-5 months of relative freedom.

Zero Covid may be possible quickly with masks combined with a selection of the previous restrictions. The 2k and 5k restrictions were nonsense and could be omitted.

moonage

Nickolas White Petroleum wrote: »

To me “reasonable excuse” would need to be backed up by a letter from a doctor or similar otherwise it’s not “reasonable”.

I hope you don't work in a shop or on public transport, because a requirement for a doctor's letter is not specified in the law.

is_that_so

No: other

jackboy wrote: »

Zero Covid may be possible quickly with masks combined with a selection of the previous restrictions. The 2k and 5k restrictions were nonsense and could be omitted.

As I said you need the buy-in from the public and Zero COVID cannot offer a guaranteed limited red zone time period any more than we could back in March. In addition, neither NPHET nor the government will bite and there would be more business closures, quite probably an awful lot more.

Marhay70

Yes: valved

suicide_circus wrote: »

A shop assistant or manager is not in a position to demand documentation proving a disability.

The Gardaí are, the shop worker is only obliged to point to the sign if the customer isn't complying and not complete the transaction. Like I say, no argument.

Seanergy

Yes: valved

Just back from my weekly Dunnes Stores shop and not one mask on any of the tillers, all other staff wearing visors or masks.

There was a shift change infront of me, a masked worker arrived to relieve the one working the till, they took off their mask to work the till and the one who had been working the till unmasked put on a mask to walk off through the shop for her break.

Obviously policy or advice from HSE must have changed.

Marhay70

Yes: valved

Seanergy wrote: »

Just back from my weekly Dunnes Stores shop and not one mask on any of the tillers, all other staff wearing visors or masks.

There was a shift change infront of me, a masked worker arrived to relieve the one working the till, they took off their mask to work the till and the one who had been working the till unmasked put on a mask to walk off through the shop for her break.

Obviously policy or advice from HSE must have changed.

All the tills in my local Dunne's have perspex screens, maybe your local is a one off. Then again maybe mine is.

joeguevara

Marhay70 wrote: »

The Gardaí are, the shop worker is only obliged to point to the sign if the customer isn't complying and not complete the transaction. Like I say, no argument.

You are correct but another not thought through. If there is no presence at shop entrance and a shopkeeper only refuses the transaction, the customer would have walked all around the shop with no mask. Eventually at the very end they will go to the till and be refused. They either go peacefully (still having been in the premises around others with no mask) or fight their battle which inevitably will be with a raised voice which emits more droplets (if infected) so in effect there is no benefit at all.

Hrududu

suicide_circus wrote: »

Out and about in Dublin city centre today and there is a noticeable decrease of mask wearing in shops.

I was in Dublin City centre yesterday and found the opposite. Back when it first became mandatory to wear masks in shops I would still see a handful of people not wearing them. Yesterday I didn’t see one person in a shop not wearing one.

Bearing in mind I was only in a handful of shops so it might have been different in others.

Marhay70

Yes: valved

joeguevara wrote: »

You are correct but another not thought through. If there is no presence at shop entrance and a shopkeeper only refuses the transaction, the customer would have walked all around the shop with no mask. Eventually at the very end they will go to the till and be refused. They either go peacefully (still having been in the premises around others with no mask) or fight their battle which inevitably will be with a raised voice which emits more droplets (if infected) so in effect there is no benefit at all.

Splitting hairs methinks. Most franchised shops, in my experience, with enough space to be lost in, will have some sort of security but some of the smaller ones with a view of the street will not. If the customer kicks off when being challenged for any reason,there will be raised voices, all the more reason to stay behind your screen and call Gardaí.
You are painting a worst case scenario, if we were to transpose that on to every possible combination of events we'd never leave the house, Covid or not.

Jim_Hodge

Yes: homemade

Seanergy wrote: »

Just back from my weekly Dunnes Stores shop and not one mask on any of the tillers, all other staff wearing visors or masks.

There was a shift change infront of me, a masked worker arrived to relieve the one working the till, they took off their mask to work the till and the one who had been working the till unmasked put on a mask to walk off through the shop for her break.

Obviously policy or advice from HSE must have changed.

Any Dunnes I've been in have the cashier behind screens, hence no requirement whatsoever for masks. Sounds like they were doing things perfectly.

Seanergy

Yes: valved

Marhay70 wrote: »

All the tills in my local Dunne's have perspex screens, maybe your local is a one off. Then again maybe mine is.

All the tills have perspex screens but show me the science behind perspex screens. There is none, just as there is no art to hanging or installing them, any old slab of plastic seems to be acceptable.

When I went to checkout, I realised the tiller infront of me had no mask on, so best thought I should use another tiller only to realise none of them had masks on.

Dunnes have been my favoured supermarket chain throughout the pandemic for 2 reasons, the had the best H&S program in place and they tend to have the larger and airier shops, making it easier to SD and offering better air quality.

It's going to have to be another email to Dunnes about PRP's, possible risk points.

Seanergy

Yes: valved

Jim_Hodge wrote: »

Any Dunnes I've been in have the cashier behind screens, hence no requirement whatsoever for masks. Sounds like they were doing things perfectly.

Show me the science.

joeguevara

Marhay70 wrote: »

Splitting hairs methinks. Most franchised shops, in my experience, with enough space to be lost in, will have some sort of security but some of the smaller ones with a view of the street will not. If the customer kicks off when being challenged for any reason,there will be raised voices, all the more reason to stay behind your screen and call Gardaí.
You are painting a worst case scenario, if we were to transpose that on to every possible combination of events we'd never leave the house, Covid or not.

I was responding to the requirement not to complete the transaction as in Legislation. Would be much more effective if in shops over a certain square metre to have security at the door. Could provide a tax break to finance this as it would reduce medical costs if infections. If, let’s say the Londis beside my office, a person enters they are automatically required to go left where there is a choppd so can order there where others are queuing, then the deli, then the coffee and finally by walking through the walkways at the till where they queue. If it’s then noticed that no mask (none of the other staff would ever have authority to do that or would they want to) if refused they would have already been in the shop ages anyway, probably a smalll point.

I do see least compliance in a small central or independent where people run in for cigarettes or a coffee. Just a thought.

Jim_Hodge

Yes: homemade

Seanergy wrote: »

All the tills have perspex screens but show me the science behind perspex screens. There is none, just as there is no art to hanging or installing them, any old slab of plastic seems to be acceptable.

When I went to checkout, I realised the tiller infront of me had no mask on, so best thought I should use another tiller only to realise none of them had masks on.

Dunnes have been my favoured supermarket chain throughout the pandemic for 2 reasons, the had the best H&S program in place and they tend to have the larger and airier shops, making it easier to SD and offering better air quality.

It's going to have to be another email to Dunnes about PRP's, possible risk points.

The guidelines specifically say face coverings are not required if staff are behind screens. At least Dunnes have screens all around the cashiers while our local Tescos only have a small screen directly in front of them.

Marhay70

Yes: valved

Seanergy wrote: »

All the tills have perspex screens but show me the science behind perspex screens. There is none, just as there is no art to hanging or installing them, any old slab of plastic seems to be acceptable.

When I went to checkout, I realised the tiller infront of me had no mask on, so best thought I should use another tiller only to realise none of them had masks on.

Dunnes have been my favoured supermarket chain throughout the pandemic for 2 reasons, the had the best H&S program in place and they tend to have the larger and airier shops, making it easier to SD and offering better air quality.

It's going to have to be another email to Dunnes about PRP's, possible risk points.

That,s something you'll have to take up with the powers that be, they are the ones who lay down the guidelines. I don't know what they consider to be sufficient but the screens I've seen in both Dunne's and Lidl have seemed adequate.

Loafing Oaf

No: I don't care enough

Seanergy wrote: »

All the tills have perspex screens but show me the science behind perspex screens. There is none

But if it's effectively a sealed-off box, bar a slot at the bottom to hand you the receipt/change/whatever, surely common sense would say that's sufficient protection, even if there isn't actually a peer-reviewed study proving it?

Roger_007

Jim_Hodge wrote: »

Any Dunnes I've been in have the cashier behind screens, hence no requirement whatsoever for masks. Sounds like they were doing things perfectly.

For screens to be effective the would need to totally enclose and seal the checkout area and have a separate air supply. The ones that are in use in shops are a joke. They re nothing but a fig leaf to pretend that the staff are protected in some way. They are not protected at all.
It’s all part of the Orwellian world that we now inhabit where you can get people to believe in just about anything.