Masks

joeguevara

Hunky Monster wrote: »

As far as I know a Gard can’t ask you what your illness is. I know in the UK it’s something like 10k in damages are awarded if the police insist on knowing your medical issues.

If I walk up to a shop with a Labrador and a pair of sunglasses, do you think a security guard can stop me and determine if it is a guide dog. For instance for me to provide the official guide dog ID. If I don’t have this and they reasonably believe it is a guide dog, I can be refused. For me to have a guide dog, I am required to be registered blind. Now, i don’t need to say that my blindness was from xyz.

Now, why do people think that not wearing a mask is any different. So, if I arrive at entrance and no mask and I am requested to wear one, they are entitled to ask reasonable questions to determine if I fall under an exemption. If I refuse to answer or start screaming, number 1 if they have no information, they can not determine if I’m exempt. Secondly if I start screaming or trying to push past, they are entitled not to permit entry based on my behaviour.

No exemption is anything to be ashamed of.

Graham

Hunky Monster wrote: »

As far as I know a Gard can’t ask you what your illness is.

Where did you discover that from?

I wouldn't mind taking a look at the official position.

joeguevara

Graham wrote: »

Where did you discover that from?

I wouldn't mind taking a look at the official position.

There is no definitive position but, my post above is my best interpretation. Another analogy is if you are absent from work, your employer can require evidence that you were will but not of the exact illness.

This idea you can blankly refuse to provide adequate information is simply not true.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

joeguevara wrote: »

There is no definitive position but, my post above is my best interpretation. Another analogy is if you are absent from work, your employer can require evidence that you were will but not of the exact illness.

This idea you can blankly refuse to provide adequate information is simply not true.

Except if you read the legislation you can. A simple “I am exempt because a mask causes me severe distress” is enough.

The legislation on reasonable excuses includes:

- Cannot wear a face covering because of a physical or mental illness or a disability, or because it would cause you severe distress.

This is enough to get a Gard to leave you alone. Anything else you say is pure speculation.

moonage

joeguevara wrote: »

So, if I arrive at entrance and no mask and I am requested to wear one, they are entitled to ask reasonable questions to determine if I fall under an exemption.

By law is the shop/bus/train employee entitled to ask questions to determine if someone falls under an exemption?

The person stating "I am mask exempt" might suffice (legally), with no further explanation required.

With a fine of up to €2,500/up to 6 months imprisonment for non-compliance, the legal situation should be made absolutely clear.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

moonage wrote: »

By law is the shop/bus/train employee entitled to ask questions to determine if someone falls under an exemption?

To an extent. Unless you’re assuming a shopkeeper or bus driver has some sort of medical background to determine whether your exempt or not. A simple “I’m medically exempt” is definitely enough, you do not need to tell the bus driver your medical history.

End.

joeguevara

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Except if you read the legislation you can. A simple “I am exempt because a mask causes me severe distress” is enough.

The legislation on reasonable excuses includes:

- Cannot wear a face covering because of a physical or mental illness or a disability, or because it would cause you severe distress.

This is enough to get a Gard to leave you alone. Anything else you say is pure speculation.

And that is exactly what I said and reasonable. If someone started shouting I don’t have to tell you, let me in, then they can be refused.

joeguevara

Hunky Monster wrote: »

To an extent. Unless you’re assuming a shopkeeper or bus driver has some sort of medical background to determine whether your exempt or not. A simple “I’m medically exempt” is definitely enough, you do not need to tell the bus driver your medical history.

End.

Completely agree. Perhaps if it was phrased as you had above.

Has anyone had Gardai called on them.

patnor1011

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

smurfjed wrote: »

Isn’t that what your travel vaccination record is for?

Sure but if you bothered to watch their promo video you would quickly discover that they suggest this to be used everywhere you move. I do not think you would carry your travel vaccination record to your hairdresser appontment or to show it to the bus driver.

patnor1011

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

Hunky Monster wrote: »

As far as I know a Gard can’t ask you what your illness is. I know in the UK it’s something like 10k in damages are awarded if the police insist on knowing your medical issues.

This. And one should wonder how stupid it must be to even suggest any fines for not wearing one. Like who would pay it when they simply can say they cant have one as it may impact their mental state. Then try to prove otherwise.
All this "mask fines" excercise is just PR stunt to show how government is working hard to fight this silent killer virus which is going to kill us all.

Graham

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Except if you read the legislation you can. A simple “I am exempt because a mask causes me severe distress” is enough.

The legislation on reasonable excuses includes:

- Cannot wear a face covering because of a physical or mental illness or a disability, or because it would cause you severe distress.

This is enough to get a Gard to leave you alone. Anything else you say is pure speculation.

There are plenty of exceptions in the law on mental/health grounds that require validation, what makes you think this one is different?

Again, a link to the relevant legislation would be good.

Unless you're just guessing of course.

patnor1011

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

moonage wrote: »

By law is the shop/bus/train employee entitled to ask questions to determine if someone falls under an exemption?

The person stating "I am mask exempt" might suffice (legally), with no further explanation required.

With a fine of up to €2,500/up to 6 months imprisonment for non-compliance, the legal situation should be made absolutely clear.

Should be but can not be due to multitude other factors which can result from possible enforcement. Data protection, medical records are considered confidential, possible discrimination issues if someone try to stop you....

Whole debate goes into extreme stuff. We simply have to accept that while majority of people will wear them, some people will not due to health or mental isssue. And when peple start accepting this there willbe no need to speculate if the guards needs to be called or what fine to give them. If you have some issue with people without mask then avoid them. There is not that many of them anyway.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

Graham wrote: »

There are plenty of exceptions in the law on mental/health grounds that require validation, what makes you think this one is different?

Again, a link to the relevant legislation would be good.

Unless you're just guessing of course.

I literally quoted it word for word in my post.

The legislation has been available for ages now, if you haven’t read it I don’t even know why you’re commenting on this thread.

Google it.

Graham

Hunky Monster wrote: »

I literally quoted it word for word in my post.

Jesus Christ

You quoted 'reasonable excuses' nothing more.

Mental illness is a 'reasonable excuse' for killing someone. Do we just take someone's word for it?

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

Graham wrote: »

You quoted 'reasonable excuses' nothing more.

Mental illness is a 'reasonable excuse' for killing someone. Do we just take someone's word for it?

.

- Cannot wear a face covering because of a physical or mental illness or a disability, or because it would cause you severe distress.

Graham

You can keep repeating it but it still doesn't say what you suggest it says.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

Graham wrote: »

You can keep repeating it but it still doesn't say what you suggest it says.

So you think people have to explain to bus drivers and shopkeepers what their medical history is in order to get on a bus or go into a shop?

Lol

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

Notice the word “OR”.

It has nothing to do with the first part.

joeguevara

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Notice the word “OR”.

It has nothing to do with the first part.

I’m going to agree with you on this point. As I said previously if it was explained to the bus driver that wearing a mask causes you stress then that would satisfy the exemption.

I had a look at some case law and guidance on definition of disability under equality law and social anxiety comes under the definition. It would be a brave driver to refuse to accept it. Now, if they did there is an arguable case for discrimination. If there is a diagnosis of social anxiety, then damages may follow.

Now one thing that is different from other disabilities is that an infection can be transmitted possibly due to the exemption. If there was not a safe place for this person or protection of others as not enough space, the driver could request that they wait for another bus. For instance if there was no safe place for a wheelchair on a bus, they can organise the next one. Not a refusal on disability but not safe to enter.

Quantum Erasure

https://twitter.com/rachel/status/1302226616991526912

patnor1011

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

Graham wrote: »

You quoted 'reasonable excuses' nothing more.

Mental illness is a 'reasonable excuse' for killing someone. Do we just take someone's word for it?

Killing someone is quite definite.
While people may believe that "if you do not have mask you may be spreading virus and maybe killing someone down the line" argument- is not that definite. It deals with possibility, maybe probability but still with quite a lot of "what if's" and "maybe".

Graham

Hunky Monster wrote: »

So you think people have to explain to bus drivers

Let's take a look at the legislation

The following persons (each of whom, in these Regulations, is referred to as a “relevant person”) are specified as relevant persons for the purposes of these Regulations:

(a) any officer, employee or agent of a public transport operator

(2) Before exercising a power under paragraph (1) in respect of a passenger, a relevant person shall give the passenger an opportunity to provide reasonable excuse and may request the passenger to provide such information as the relevant person considers necessary to determine whether or not the passenger has reasonable excuse.

joeguevara

Graham wrote: »

Let's take a look at the legislation

But he does have a point when he said, I don’t want to wear my mask as it distressed me and is an exemption. He doesn’t have to show himself getting distressed or provide documentation of having social anxiety. All he has to say is it distressed me.

Hunky Monster

No: I don't care enough

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Except if you read the legislation you can. A simple “I am exempt because a mask causes me severe distress” is enough.

The legislation on reasonable excuses includes:

- Cannot wear a face covering because of a physical or mental illness or a disability, or because it would cause you severe distress.

This is enough to get a Gard to leave you alone. Anything else you say is pure speculation.

Absolute bull, anyone not wearing a mask should be fined unless they can prove with documented evidence that they are exempt.

It’s like saying I can park in a disabled space and just claim I’m disabled and can’t be questioned on it. Horse s*it of the highest order.

patnor1011 wrote: »

Should be but can not be due to multitude other factors which can result from possible enforcement. Data protection, medical records are considered confidential, possible discrimination issues if someone try to stop you....
.

Thankfully this discrimination rubbish isn’t being pandered to by many shops. I’ve see a number of people refused entry to shops without masks, I don’t now if they were trying to claim they were exempt as I was back in the queue but they were sent in their way. There were two separate people in the queue to dunnes the last day sent on their way as they had no masks - absolutely brilliant to see this happening.

No documented evidence for not needing a mask then you need a mask simple as that.

deathbomber

No: other

Protect yourself first and foremost. Any person not wearing a mask as we get well into Autumn and winter are selfish fools and risking their health, it's going to be a tough 4 months or so for the world

Graham

joeguevara wrote: »

He doesn’t have to show himself getting distressed or provide documentation of having social anxiety. All he has to say is it distressed me.

That's not what the legislation says.

a relevant person shall give the passenger an opportunity to provide reasonable excuse and may request the passenger to provide such information as the relevant person considers necessary

Personally I'd prefer to see a blanket "you must", with the state providing alternative support for those that can't.

joeguevara

No: I don't care enough

joeguevara wrote: »

But he does have a point when he said, I don’t want to wear my mask as it distressed me and is an exemption. He doesn’t have to show himself getting distressed or provide documentation of having social anxiety. All he has to say is it distressed me.

And I’d say p*ss off out of here - it’s a mask not a fecking roll of barbed wire. Wearing a mask causes “severe distress” my hole.

Documented evidence or a mask is required that’s how this should be run and in some places at least that’s thankfully how it is being implemented.

Darc19

Nickolas White Petroleum wrote: »

And I’d say p*ss off out of here - it’s a mask not a fecking roll of barbed wire. Wearing a mask causes “severe distress” my hole.

Documented evidence or a mask is required that’s how this should be run and in some places at least that’s thankfully how it is being implemented.

Thankfully most people who create regulations are intelligent and understand that there are people who have a different way of thinking.

1. There are people who would be easily led by anti vaxxer types and will believe in the anti mask bullsh1t. They could be distressed due to their gullibility of belief of false information

2. There are many people who have mild disabilities that could be distressed.

3. There are people who have facial skin conditions that wearing a mask can cause issues.

Once you have 80%+ wearing them, it's overall effectiveness is near optimum

joeguevara

Nickolas White Petroleum wrote: »

And I’d say p*ss off out of here - it’s a mask not a fecking roll of barbed wire. Wearing a mask causes “severe distress” my hole.

Documented evidence or a mask is required that’s how this should be run and in some places at least that’s thankfully how it is being implemented.

I’m the most pro mask person you could meet. But I was explaining how the legislation works. Also seeing as social anxiety is considered a disability under the equality act, which in many cases causes it to be exacerbated when mouth is restricted, refusing is discrimination and is actionable.

Now I did previously give loopholes on what the bus driver could do, but basically for this one, all they have to say is that it distresses them.

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

I really fail to see how masks are helping. The numbers dropped insanely low while nobody was wearing masks and remained that way for months. People were out and about and going about their days at the time.

In fact, since we've made masks mandatory, the case numbers have risen. Could it be that they are actually doing more harm than good? The medical experts have said many times that they can do more harm if not worn correctly.

I certainly don't believe they are doing much good. Good optics though I guess.