Is it just me or have SF vanished?

FrancieBrady

all about the mane wrote: »

You tell me. We are going through the worst health crisis in history SF’s own words) yet trolley numbers have never been lower

SF and others also said trolley numbers were fixable.
As we can see they were right.

Whose fault was it that there were people on trolleys?

smurgen

all about the mane wrote: »

That is a lie. Why am I not surprised...

It's so close as to be insignificant. Does it make the years of austerity seem justified ? Not in my eyes.portugal also went anti austerity and they economy lifted. Fg have been the best boys in class and it seems like a waste now.morto.

Yurt2

all about the mane wrote: »

You tell me. We are going through the worst health crisis in history SF’s own words) yet trolley numbers have never been lower

I see you're unwilling to engage your finely tuned cubscout powers of deduction.

Standard FG reflexive answer then, it was a fake crisis created by wasters and the Irish Times. Well done, you'll be co-opted into a county council seat by the year's end.

JohnnyFlash

Yurt! wrote: »

I see you're unwilling to engage your powers of deduction then.

Standard FG reflexive answer then, it was a fake crisis created by wasters and the Irish Times. Well done, you'll be co-opted into a county council seat by the year's end.

You always seem so angry, amigo. Chill out.

Yurt2

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

You always seem so angry, amigo. Chill out.

Just another day at the coalface exposing FG cubscouts' lack of intellectual firepower and political dogma. You're easy work too by the way.

all about the mane

smurgen wrote: »

It's so close as to be insignificant. Does it make the years of austerity seem justified ? Not in my eyes.portugal also went anti austerity and they economy lifted. Fg have been the best boys in class and it seems like a waste now.morto.

Okay. Tell us what the difference is in the rates?

smurgen

all about the mane wrote: »

Okay. Tell us what the difference is in the rates?

Greece 10 year bond 1.59 v Ireland 0%.
Ireland has chronically underspent when we were making money. See here the EU recommending us to up our game.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/start-acting-like-a-rich-country-ibec-and-eu-call-for-infrastructure-38993983.html

ThunbergsAreGo

Its almost like they are to "do nothing for the next five years"

The one thing I dont get is where their attempt to form a governments. Two weeks of rallies and social media saturation and then nothing

Was it

a) they dont and never had the numbers and realised this
b) other parties refused to deal with them
c) they decided they would rather do nothing in opposition for five years

blanch152

Yurt! wrote: »

I see you're unwilling to engage your finely tuned cubscout powers of deduction.

Standard FG reflexive answer then, it was a fake crisis created by wasters and the Irish Times. Well done, you'll be co-opted into a county council seat by the year's end.

Many of us said that the trolley crisis was a combination of a few small things:

- People turning up at A&E who shouldn't really be there but felt entitled to be there (they were scared away by the coronavirus)
- Inefficient working practices protected by poor local management (these were quickly sorted once the threat from coronavirus became clear)

The government didn't and doesn't control either of those factors. The trolley crisis wasn't down to politicians, it was down to poor local management and Irish culture.

blanch152

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Its almost like they are to "do nothing for the next five years"

The one thing I dont get is where their attempt to form a governments. Two weeks of rallies and social media saturation and then nothing

Was it

a) they dont and never had the numbers and realised this
b) other parties refused to deal with them
c) they decided they would rather do nothing in opposition for five years

A combination of (b) and (c). The numbers were there to take out FG - there were 125 non-FG TDs in the Dail, all of whom campaigned to get the FG government out. Yet SF couldn't get the numbers because other parties refused to deal with them because of their toxicity. Sure they will blame FG and FF but if SF was a reasonable normal party, they would have been able to do a deal, after all FG did a deal with Democratic Left all those years ago, and FF did a deal with the Worker's Party. That shows how far down the ladder of acceptability SF are.

Yurt2

blanch152 wrote: »

The trolley crisis wasn't down to politicians, it was down to poor local management and Irish culture.

Let that sink in folks, FG acolyte believes we had pensioners on trolleys because of Irish culture.

You lads need to be kept a mile away from the levers when this is done.

The civil service, frontline workers and society at large are moving mountains to kill off this virus. For your sheer attitude towards the average Irish person you don't deserve a cent of political capital from this, because there's much more spadework going on in Ireland than Harris or Leo reading from a hymn sheet written for them by a senior civil servant who hasn't slept in days because of the work they're doing.

Good lord you're awful.

all about the mane

smurgen wrote: »

Greece 10 year bond 1.59 v Ireland 0%.
Ireland has chronically underspent when we were making money. See here the EU recommending us to up our game.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/start-acting-like-a-rich-country-ibec-and-eu-call-for-infrastructure-38993983.html

So you went from saying it was the same, to saying it was negligible, to now showing a difference of 1.59 %. Also, you do know their rate was over 35% in 2012. Do you know what that does to an economy? Ours at time was 12. They have been in the longest recession in history. Longer than the Great Depression. The flight of capital and people from the country has been staggering. The austerity measures implemented there have been brutal. And they have loans from then that reach out past 2060.
To compare Greece to Ireland is laughable. And shows a complete lack of knowledge on the subject.

Yurt2

If you think the level of austerity imposed on Greece and the manner they were treated was for the betterment of their economy and society you don't have much to say about the subject yourself. People unread in economic theory were coached into believing there was only one approach to the crisis and parrot it ad nauseum. They allow other people to do the thinking for them and think they're smart repeating the same punchlines.

Greece had major structural problems nobody would deny, but the core Euro economies decided on the burn the village down to save it approach.

Many eminent economists disagreed that it was for the greater good. Smarter and less sneery people than yourself.

blanch152

Yurt! wrote: »

Let that sink in folks, FG acolyte believes we had pensioners on trolleys because of Irish culture.

You lads need to be kept a mile away from the levers when this is done.

The civil service, frontline workers and society at large are moving mountains to kill off this virus. For your sheer attitude towards the average Irish person you don't deserve a cent of political capital from this, because there's much more spadework going on in Ireland than Harris or Leo reading from a hymn sheet written for them by a senior civil servant who hasn't slept in days because of the work they're doing.

Good lord you're awful.

Yes, Irish frontline workers are the heroes of the moment, there is no doubt about that. I didn’t criticise them, I criticised local middle management in the HSE. They are awful. No matter the initiative from the top, it gets lost in local mismanagement.

As for the average Irish person, I am not criticising them. If you think the average Irish person is content to exploit the system, spending a lifetime on social welfare, expecting everything to be handed to them, then I am criticising them. But that is not the average Irish person, it is just the type of people you defend. The average Irish person is hard-working, tax-paying and pays his own way and has no time for the type of people you spend your time on here defending.

Yurt2

blanch152 wrote: »

The average Irish person is hard-working, tax-paying and pays his own way and has no time for the type of people you spend your time on here defending.

Who would that be that I defend then?

Look, before the covid crisis we reached functional full employment, yet your ilk base your entire political philosophy and mindspace raging about the miniscule amount of long term unemployed. As if every second person is on the scratch with their hands down their adidas trackies.

It's infuriating, masses of the hard working populace handed you an electoral beatdown because of declining standards of living and abysmal performance on cornerstone issues like health and housing.

In response, all you can do is prattle on about the sliver of long term unemployed people and insult everyone else's intelligence.

Fight another election on that platform, and the electorate will blacken the other eye for you. You'll never learn.

all about the mane

Yurt! wrote: »

If you think the level of austerity imposed on Greece and the manner they were treated was for the betterment of their economy and society you don't have much to say about the subject yourself. People unread in economic theory were coached into believing there was only one approach to the crisis and parrot it ad nauseum. They allow other people to do the thinking for them and think they're smart repeating the same punchlines.

Greece had major structural problems nobody would deny, but the core Euro economies decided on the burn the village down to save it approach.

Many eminent economists disagreed that it was for the greater good. Smarter and less sneery people than yourself.

Where did I say it was for their betterment? I am discussing what actually happened. Not theorising on what should have. I am discussing the brutal austerity measures that were brought in there compared to here. Try to keep up

Yurt!

Yurt! wrote: »

Who would that be that I defend then?

Look, before the covid crisis we reached functional full employment, yet your ilk base your entire political philosophy and mindspace raging about the miniscule amount of long term unemployed. As if every second person is on the scratch with their hands down their adidas trackies.

It's infuriating, masses of the hard working populace handed you an electoral beatdown because of declining standards of living and abysmal performance on cornerstone issues like health and housing.

In response, all you can do is prattle on about the sliver of long term unemployed people and insult everyone else's intelligence.

Fight another election on that platform, and the electorate will blacken the other eye for you. You'll never learn.

Were that the case, most of the country wouldn't have voted for centrist parties like FG and FF. No need to overstate what 24% represents.

Yurt2

Deleted User wrote: »

Were that the case, most of the country wouldn't have voted for centrist parties like FG and FF. No need to overstate what 24% represents.

FF + FG first preferences added up to 43%, so no, most didn't vote for them.

I wouldn't characterise FG as centrist either, Varadkar has moved them to a centre-right position and clearly signaled that when he went for leadership.

Fianna Fáil are whatever you're having yourself.

Yurt!

Yurt! wrote: »

FF + FG first preferences added up to 43%, so no, most didn't vote for them.

Like FG and FF, so Labour, Greens etc. They are all centrist parties.

But hey, feel free to pretend 24% is more than the centre got, it's fine by me.

How do you think "centre-right" isn't centrist? Seriously.

Yurt2

Deleted User wrote: »

Like FG and FF, so Labour, Greens etc. They are all centrist parties.

But hey, feel free to pretend 24% is more than the centre got, it's fine by me.

You're invoking SF into my 'electoral beatdown' comment, they weren't even referenced in my post. I'm not inflating their percentage, I didn't even make reference to them there, but FG most certainly got kicking.

I think many Labour and Green members would dispute the above characterisation and would distance themselves from FG's style of governance

Yurt2

Deleted User wrote: »

How do you think "centre-right" isn't centrist? Seriously.

Now you're playing word games, I'm not going to engage in that craic.

Yurt!

Yurt! wrote: »

You're invoking SF into my 'electoral beatdown' comment, they weren't even referenced in my post. I'm not inflating their percentage, I didn't even make reference to them there, but FG most certainly got kicking.

I think many Labour and Green members would dispute the above characterisation and would distance themselves from FG's style of governance

Most people voted for something similar to the status quo, that's undeniable just by looking at the numbers. People wanted the system to be tweaked a bit, not "burst".

If Labour and Green voters think they are voting for hard left parties, they haven't been paying attention.

Yurt!

Yurt! wrote: »

Now you're playing word games, I'm not going to engage in that craic.

I'm not. It's a fair question. Why isn't centre-right centrist? I would say by definition they are centrist.

FG brought in free GP care for under 12's, increased pensions and unemployment benefit etc. Refused to tax the income of low earners apart from the USC. They are very, very clearly centrist.

It's not word play to ask someone to define the terms they are using.

Yurt2

Deleted User wrote: »

Most people voted for something similar to the status quo, that's undeniable just by looking at the numbers. People wanted the system to be tweaked a bit, not "burst".

If Labour and Green voters think they are voting for hard left parties, they haven't been paying attention.

Who said Labour and Greens are hard left? Not I.

You know as well as I do that there are distinctions on the political spectrum between the hard left and hard right that are worth discussing. Centrist does not equal centre left, and centrist does not equal centre right.

FWIW, the SF manifesto isn't exactly Joseph Tito and they won't be nationalising your granny any time soon. You can try to make them some sort of economic boogeyman, but when the Irish Banking & Payments Federation and IBEC were relaxed about their manifesto, you're going to have a hard time painting Pearse Doherty as some sort of Leninist.

I'm not even instincually SF, long-standing member of another party actually (now-lapsed membership). I get stuck into these threads because the FG cheerleaders argue in such bad-faith and pushed huge falsehoods before, during and after the election about the party's competency and performance.

They have an air of entitlement about their pretty feeble political outlook and their right to governance. Some of it comes across as profoundly anti-democratic and insulting to a lot of the population. They deserve to be challenged and frequently lose their cool when people do so.

smurgen

all about the mane wrote: »

So you went from saying it was the same, to saying it was negligible, to now showing a difference of 1.59 %. Also, you do know their rate was over 35% in 2012. Do you know what that does to an economy? Ours at time was 12. They have been in the longest recession in history. Longer than the Great Depression. The flight of capital and people from the country has been staggering. The austerity measures implemented there have been brutal. And they have loans from then that reach out past 2060.
To compare Greece to Ireland is laughable. And shows a complete lack of knowledge on the subject.

Every country has loans that reach decades into the future. Do you understand finance at all?

all about the mane

smurgen wrote: »

Every country has loans that reach decades into the future. Do you understand finance at all?

Yes. Those loans are until past 2060. That’s on top of all the other loans. Try harder

Yurt2

smurgen wrote: »

Every country has loans that reach decades into the future. Do you understand finance at all?

Indeed, I think the US were toying with 100 year bonds last year, and you'll probably see them this year in response to the current crisis.

all about the mane

Yurt! wrote: »

Indeed, I think the US were toying with 100 year bonds last year, and you'll probably see them this year in response to the current crisis.

At 0% interest rates.

Yurt!

Yurt! wrote: »

Who said Labour and Greens are hard left? Not I.

You know as well as I do that there are distinctions on the political spectrum between the hard left and hard right that are worth discussing. Centrist does not equal centre left, and centrist does not equal centre right.

FWIW, the SF manifesto isn't exactly Joseph Tito and they won't be nationalising your granny any time soon. You can try to make them some sort of economic boogeyman, but when the Irish Banking & Payments Federation and IBEC were relaxed about their manifesto, you're going to have a hard time painting Pearse Doherty as some sort of Leninist.

I'm not even instincually SF, long-standing member of another party actually (now-lapsed membership). I get stuck into these threads because the FG cheerleaders argue in such bad-faith and pushed huge falsehoods before, during and after the election about the party's competency and performance.

They have an air of entitlement about their pretty feeble political outlook and their right to governance. Some of it comes across as profoundly anti-democratic and insulting to a lot of the population. They deserve to be challenged and frequently lose their cool when people do so.

I agree SF aren't really hard left either. They are a mish-mash of ill-focused populism. They support austerity in NI, they backed the bank bailout here, they don't believe in property taxes here, they are EU "skeptics" who back the EU interference into Irish tax etc.

But they wear the cloak of the "hard left" and rarely really get challenged on it.

By FG's actions, they are firmly in the centre, imo.

Yurt2

all about the mane wrote: »

At 0% interest rates.

What's your point? We're all aware of interest rates.