Workplaces and employer attitudes Megathread

Akabusi

All the best measures by companies to make office areas safer will be negated if people have to travel on crowded public transport to get to the office.

gnf_ireland

I expect large companies to bring people back in phases - starting with those who are struggling remotely due to connectivity or logistical reasons
- next is likely to have people in 2 days a week to provide a level of social normality
- full new working arrangements, whatever they may be

I think more companies will accept more remote working arrangements in the medium term but not sure it will become the norm just yet !!

splashuum

Akabusi wrote: »

All the best measures by companies to make office areas safer will be negated if people have to travel on crowded public transport to get to the office.

True, unfortunately

Fred Cryton

There are a lot of people who will take a mile if you give an inch. I can see one colleague today disappeared around 11:30 and didn't re-appear until 2:30. That's a 3 hour lunch!

Main reason the companies will push to get people back into office is control and productivity. Many Irish people are sly slackers.

Akabusi

Fred Cryton wrote: »

There are a lot of people who will take a mile if you give an inch. I can see one colleague today disappeared around 11:30 and didn't re-appear until 2:30. That's a 3 hour lunch!

Main reason the companies will push to get people back into office is control and productivity. Many Irish people are sly slackers.

Yes you need trust for remote working, however, maybe he is getting all the required work done and can afford to take a 3 hour break or maybe he will log back in later when the kids are down to finish the work. If someone is slacking, they will be found out soon enough.

pinktoe

Fred Cryton wrote: »

There are a lot of people who will take a mile if you give an inch. I can see one colleague today disappeared around 11:30 and didn't re-appear until 2:30. That's a 3 hour lunch!

Main reason the companies will push to get people back into office is control and productivity. Many Irish people are sly slackers.

Depends on the work and the people I suppose.

In the company I work for, I took the option of working from home a couple of years ago. You get the work for the week and if you put your mind to it, you would be finished on a Wednesday. Nothing more is added to your workload.
I don't know when I last worked a Friday unless it was to meet a client. So that motivates us to get work done and frees office space. Around 20% took the work from home option.

I see it as a major advantage I get an extra 90min sleep in the morning, better food etc.

Obviously it's not for everyone. Somepeople need structure, socialising, gossip etc, and some people would take the piss and constantlyhave excuses for late work

Harry Palmr

Akabusi wrote: »

All the best measures by companies to make office areas safer will be negated if people have to travel on crowded public transport to get to the office.

This is the elephant in all the rooms isn't it?

Beasty

Threads merged

jrosen

gnf_ireland wrote: »

I expect large companies to bring people back in phases - starting with those who are struggling remotely due to connectivity or logistical reasons
- next is likely to have people in 2 days a week to provide a level of social normality
- full new working arrangements, whatever they may be

I think more companies will accept more remote working arrangements in the medium term but not sure it will become the norm just yet !!

My husbands company are already logging and tracking those with poor productivity and they are being highlighted as first back when the implement their phased return.

PhilOssophy

I think working from home has been pushed forward about 5 years. Companies who now realise how unimportant being at a desk is, could save themselves money by allowing hot-desking, reduced commute, reduced pressure on public transport, etc.
Personally, I would like 2 days a week in the office, 3 days WFH. Mix it up a bit.
But if somebody said the working environment was from home for the foreseeable, I don't really care too much.

ixoy

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I think working from home has been pushed forward about 5 years. Companies who now realise how unimportant being at a desk is, could save themselves money by allowing hot-desking, reduced commute, reduced pressure on public transport, etc.

I'd like to think so but are companies satisfied they're getting the performance? Aside from those who take the piss, there's also going to be people who are less productive because they have to look after their kids. Their employers are hopefully taking that into account, when assessing working from home, and not thinking: "Oh look, loads of people didn't work that well. Oh well - back into the office!"

bucketybuck

Akabusi wrote: »

Yes you need trust for remote working, however, maybe he is getting all the required work done and can afford to take a 3 hour break or maybe he will log back in later when the kids are down to finish the work. If someone is slacking, they will be found out soon enough.

If he can do all the work and afford a 3 hour break then I would seriously reevaluate his job spec.

gnf_ireland

jrosen wrote: »

My husbands company are already logging and tracking those with poor productivity and they are being highlighted as first back when the implement their phased return.

Does not surprise me at all - it’s not like companies and managers cannot see the productivity over a 4 week period

gnf_ireland

Fred Cryton wrote: »

There are a lot of people who will take a mile if you give an inch. I can see one colleague today disappeared around 11:30 and didn't re-appear until 2:30. That's a 3 hour lunch!

Main reason the companies will push to get people back into office is control and productivity. Many Irish people are sly slackers.

Depending on circumstances, there could be very legitimate reasons for this behaviour - especially in the current environment. We are in exceptional time’s and some people need to manage work, childcare and school work during their day. Maybe the person logged in at 6am and will be there until 10am because their partner had to spend a few hours doing their job too. How selfish of them !!! Or maybe they were doing some school work with a child - ah the cheek !!!

Most employers I know are flexible at this time and understand that flexibility is key to surviving as long as the work gets done.

I disagree Irish are slackers and you will find international reports that they are the most productive nation in the world.

But employers (and colleagues) need to grow up and look at outputs not hours clocked in !!

I think the big challenge is some companies feel the need to control employees and then complain that they lack flexibility and innovation. If a company I was in does not trust me to work remotely from time to time, that is my trigger to leave as the culture has gone from trust to control

gnf_ireland

ixoy wrote: »

I'd like to think so but are companies satisfied they're getting the performance? Aside from those who take the piss, there's also going to be people who are less productive because they have to look after their kids. Their employers are hopefully taking that into account, when assessing working from home, and not thinking: "Oh look, loads of people didn't work that well. Oh well - back into the office!"

I think so much depends on the management team and culture within the company. I have been lucky enough to have a regular balance between remote and onsite work over the last 12 odd years. But I also have an office in the house and my children understand when I am in there I am working ! But I fully accept this is not possible for everyone.

What I do see happening is the continual move towards hot desking - as much to support social distancing as anything else - and more people working remotely a day or two a week. But I think it’s a long way from more regular remote working arrangements

PhilOssophy

Trust is a 2-way street, as an employee you should be given it but then you have to retain it.
(From an employee, not a manager!).

splashuum

https://www.thejournal.ie/mass-gatherings-august-5080226-Apr2020/

Mass gatherings on 5,000 banned until August. I wonder will workplaces who host a similar amount of employees be banned from opening?

JTMan

splashuum wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/mass-gatherings-august-5080226-Apr2020/

Mass gatherings on 5,000 banned until August. I wonder will workplaces who host a similar amount of employees be banned from opening?

You can bet that the 'work from home where possible' restriction will be one of the last restrictions to be lifted along with mass gatherings. Hence, "end of August" provides a possible timeline of when people, who can work from home, will start returning to the office.

CinemaGuy45

splashuum wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/mass-gatherings-august-5080226-Apr2020/

Mass gatherings on 5,000 banned until August. I wonder will workplaces who host a similar amount of employees be banned from opening?

Im my job a few people have been out sick with the thing they have recovered and are now back and work and there is no spread.

Work is not a mass gathering people behave very differently in work compared to a social or sporting event.

Keeping our paws clean not touching our faces and not being on top of each other has worked in my workplace.

People will just have to accept that social events and getting pissups will be the last thing to come back as this is where the spread can really go wild.

JTMan

I saw this on Twitter and agree:

When business opens, many employees will ask to stay remote - due to new lifestyle preference & health concerns.

Companies will be forced to accommodate for 1-2 years.

As teams are forced to embrace remote work for multiple years, remote will become a default option.

Previously going to the office was the default option. In the new world, remote will be the default option.

jester77

JTMan wrote: »

I saw this on Twitter and agree:



Previously going to the office was the default option. In the new world, remote will be the default option.

That's nice in a good way, it will mean you are not tied to a general location when looking for a job, same for employers looking for candidates. If you have the skills as an employee, then you will be in a good place after this clears up.

MidnightHawk

Is your employer allowed to cut your salary because of the COVID 19 without any formal notice?

Or is there a formal process for this?

LeYouth

If they can't afford to pay you they would probably do this as a measure to keep you on.

But what do i know, pobably better to post in the mega thread or Beasty will get you.

I don't usually feel sorry for moderators but that guy is probably going grey moderating this coronavirus forum.

MidnightHawk

LeYouth wrote: »

If they can't afford to pay you they would probably do this as a measure to keep you on.

Thanks, but it doesn't really answer my question. I understand why they do it, but is there a process to follow for this? Technically this is changing the work contract, and cannot be done unless both parties agree to this. It might also change the nature of engagement (for instance, staff may opt to reduce time in the office).

martin101

I work in a fairly big office in the inner city. We have been in over the whole lockdown due to being "essential" workers. Over the last week or two the office is getting fuller, most have worked from home but are slowly coming back. I came in on Monday after being off a few days and a woman sat herself in front of me. She was no more than 3 feet away and I said are you actually going to stay there. She said yeah and wasn't moving. So I said fine I'll move to a free desk that is 2 meters from anyone. When I moved my boss came over to me and ask what did I think I was doing? I said I'm moving due to social distancing and all. And she said oh yes that's fine. As the week went on more and more people have come back into the office. What they are doing now is leaving people who won't complain all together and the people like myself who want to social distance are kept away. What I'm wondering is what will happen when all the rest of the staff come back. Will we be told just to sit side by side again like the office was before all this or will they have another plan. I was fairly shocked at how close some people where together. Think the managers are just trying to get as many back as possible and leave the people side by side who don't mind being so close to each other.

sterz

martin101 wrote: »

I work in a fairly big office in the inner city. We have been in over the whole lockdown due to being "essential" workers. Over the last week of two the office is getting fuller, most have worked from home but are slowly coming back. I came in on Monday after being off a few days and a woman sat herself in front of me. She was no more than 3 feet away and I said are you actually going to stay there. She said yeah and wasn't moving. So I said fine I'll move to a free desk that is 2 meters from anyone. When I moved my boss came over to me and ask what did I think I was doing? I said I'm moving due to social distancing and all. And she said oh yes that's fine. As the week went on more and more people have come back into the office. What they are doing now is leaving people who won't complain all together and the people like myself who want to social distance are kept away. What I'm wondering is what will happen when all the rest of the staff come back. Will we be told just to sit side by side again like the office was before all this or will they have another plan. I was fairly shocked at how close some people where together. Think the managers are just trying to get as many back as possible and leave the people side by side who don't mind being so close to each other.

In our workplace it sounds like they're putting together some sort of plan to have teams working in shifts (around 100 in the office). So my guess is that teams will work 2 or 3 days a week in the office and the remainder at home. And safe to say that those teams that will be in the office will not be sitting next to each other like they used to.

martin101

sterz wrote: »

In our workplace it sounds like they're putting together some sort of plan to have teams working in shifts (around 100 in the office). So my guess is that teams will work 2 or 3 days a week in the office and the remainder at home. And safe to say that those teams that will be in the office will not be sitting next to each other like they used to.

That's good but I'm not sure my place will do the same. Think they might chance their arm as much as possible but maybe if enough people say something it will change. My office though nobody speaks up. Most just want the handy life and won't stand up for themselves.

SAMTALK

Our workplace seems to be reverting to old ways. Can see a change in attitude this week

sterz

Maybe we're lucky in that regard as people will speak up but this plan is coming from management so I don't think there will be a need for us to do so.

martin101

sterz wrote: »

Maybe we're lucky in that regard as people will speak up but this plan is coming from management so I don't think there will be a need for us to do so.

You are lucky. My boss said last week and this is no joke. That "anyone without an underlying condition under the age of 55 is bulletproof when it comes to this virus"
Crazy stuff. So when your boss comes out with mad statements like that. Anything is possible.

pablo128

martin101 wrote: »

You are lucky. My boss said last week and this is no joke. That "anyone without an underlying condition under the age of 55 is bulletproof when it comes to this virus"
Crazy stuff. So when your boss comes out with mad statements like that. Anything is possible.

You should have told him to take a look at what happened Boris Johnson.

homewardbound11

I know I’m keeping a note of one liners from managers right up to the top that would Make you think again ... might be worth having a thread for that alone .

martin101

pablo128 wrote: »

You should have told him to take a look at what happened Boris Johnson.

I actually thought I was hearing things until someone else said to me did he just say that. So I wasn't just imagining it. I could write a book about the stuff that's come out of his mouth over the years. But most of it you wouldn't believe.

FrStone

martin101 wrote: »

I work in a fairly big office in the inner city. We have been in over the whole lockdown due to being "essential" workers. Over the last week or two the office is getting fuller, most have worked from home but are slowly coming back. I came in on Monday after being off a few days and a woman sat herself in front of me. She was no more than 3 feet away and I said are you actually going to stay there. She said yeah and wasn't moving. So I said fine I'll move to a free desk that is 2 meters from anyone. When I moved my boss came over to me and ask what did I think I was doing? I said I'm moving due to social distancing and all. And she said oh yes that's fine. As the week went on more and more people have come back into the office. What they are doing now is leaving people who won't complain all together and the people like myself who want to social distance are kept away. What I'm wondering is what will happen when all the rest of the staff come back. Will we be told just to sit side by side again like the office was before all this or will they have another plan. I was fairly shocked at how close some people where together. Think the managers are just trying to get as many back as possible and leave the people side by side who don't mind being so close to each other.

Our place is thinking about installing perspex between desks... Not sure if it will work or not, either way I don't mind too much as I've been going in and out of the office a few days a week just to keep sane.

Jurgen Klopp

I see in the UK the aim is to spread the work and workers over 7 days. A certain amount do X days and then the other group do the other days

mayo londoner

It will be interesting to see what the government advises regarding opening up of offices again come 5th May. As in will they still encourage people to work from home where possible. I know for a fact that company I work for will be hellbent in getting everyone back into the office again in Dublin at the first opportunity as they despise staff remote working (was told by my manager on the 16th March that the office was the safest place to be.......), which leads to another big issue down the line IMO.

Say for example, an employee is working from home currently in the likes of Mayo/Kerry/Donegal and is told to go back to their office in Dublin, how will they be able to visit their relatives/friends etc based back in Mayo/Kerry/Donegal etc down the line? It's not as if they can leave Dublin for a weekend and head home to their elderly parents for example as they wouldn't be able to spend 2 weeks in isolation before a visit.

Same applies to people who are currently caring for their elderly parents at the moment, say doing the likes of their shopping (currently doing this for my own parents, one of whom has cancer and my aunt and uncle living down the road, one of whom is bad with Parkinsons, all in their early to mid 70's). I'd imagine there's a lot of people usually based in Dublin who came home when this all kicked off in a similar situation and are dreading the call from the office to go back as they will be in limbo what to do, including myself, and I can't exactly see employers being too sympathetic either. They obviously pay the wages and call the shots but the more I think about it the more stumped I am on what to do when the call arrives. Very rural area so not really anyone to do their shopping for them, hence one of them would be exposing themselves going shopping.

Salty

mayo londoner wrote: »

It will be interesting to see what the government advises regarding opening up of offices again come 5th May. As in will they still encourage people to work from home where possible. I know for a fact that company I work for will be hellbent in getting everyone back into the office again in Dublin at the first opportunity as they despise staff remote working (was told by my manager on the 16th March that the office was the safest place to be.......), which leads to another big issue down the line IMO.

Say for example, an employee is working from home currently in the likes of Mayo/Kerry/Donegal and is told to go back to their office in Dublin, how will they be able to visit their relatives/friends etc based back in Mayo/Kerry/Donegal etc down the line? It's not as if they can leave Dublin for a weekend and head home to their elderly parents for example as they wouldn't be able to spend 2 weeks in isolation before a visit.

Same applies to people who are currently caring for their elderly parents at the moment, say doing the likes of their shopping (currently doing this for my own parents, one of whom has cancer and my aunt and uncle living down the road, one of whom is bad with Parkinsons, all in their early to mid 70's). I'd imagine there's a lot of people usually based in Dublin who came home when this all kicked off in a similar situation and are dreading the call from the office to go back as they will be in limbo what to do, including myself, and I can't exactly see employers being too sympathetic either. They obviously pay the wages and call the shots but the more I think about it the more stumped I am on what to do when the call arrives. Very rural area so not really anyone to do their shopping for them, hence one of them would be exposing themselves going shopping.

I know the feeling. I was based up in Louth in a new job, and came back way down south (3 hour drive) when this kicked off.

My place of work deals with children with disabilities primarily and closed the same day as the schools back in March. I am hesitant to go back too soon because my manager has casually dropped in to conversation that maybe they would have me back on a part-time basis since some of the parents of these children may not be comfortable just yet bringing their children in...but part-time would not be worth my while if I am to cover rent etc.

And there is the issue that I would want to come home every weekend to see my family, friends and boyfriend. I don't want to isolate myself completely up there on a low income. I'm also afraid that if restrictions are relaxed and we all go back, but then have to be reinstated again that my workplace could close again, leaving me income-less like I am now. I was lucky my rental situation when this kicked off was very casual, but I won't be able to get a deal like that again and I don't want to be on the hook for rent I can't pay, far away from everyone I know.

/rant

average_runner

mayo londoner wrote: »

It will be interesting to see what the government advises regarding opening up of offices again come 5th May. As in will they still encourage people to work from home where possible. I know for a fact that company I work for will be hellbent in getting everyone back into the office again in Dublin at the first opportunity as they despise staff remote working (was told by my manager on the 16th March that the office was the safest place to be.......), which leads to another big issue down the line IMO.

Say for example, an employee is working from home currently in the likes of Mayo/Kerry/Donegal and is told to go back to their office in Dublin, how will they be able to visit their relatives/friends etc based back in Mayo/Kerry/Donegal etc down the line? It's not as if they can leave Dublin for a weekend and head home to their elderly parents for example as they wouldn't be able to spend 2 weeks in isolation before a visit.

Same applies to people who are currently caring for their elderly parents at the moment, say doing the likes of their shopping (currently doing this for my own parents, one of whom has cancer and my aunt and uncle living down the road, one of whom is bad with Parkinsons, all in their early to mid 70's). I'd imagine there's a lot of people usually based in Dublin who came home when this all kicked off in a similar situation and are dreading the call from the office to go back as they will be in limbo what to do, including myself, and I can't exactly see employers being too sympathetic either. They obviously pay the wages and call the shots but the more I think about it the more stumped I am on what to do when the call arrives. Very rural area so not really anyone to do their shopping for them, hence one of them would be exposing themselves going shopping.

If u can work from home you be still doing it for the next 8 months.

Companies will have to obey social distancing in the office etc.

Hot desks will be the new thing now and companies know they can down scale on building size and still function at 100%

mugsymugsy

average_runner wrote: »

If u can work from home you be still doing it for the next 8 months.

Companies will have to obey social distancing in the office etc.

Hot desks will be the new thing now Andrew companies know they can down scale on building size and still function at 100%

Agree about those that can will continue to do so. The hot desk part isn't a great idea unless they are disinfected after every different user.

average_runner

mugsymugsy wrote: »

Agree about those that can will continue to do so. The hot desk part isn't a great idea unless they are disinfected after every different user.

Well that will be the plan. Each night the cleaner will do that. Also no proof it lives on surfaces

RunRoryRun

average_runner wrote: »

Well that will be the plan. Each night the cleaner will do that. Also no proof it lives on surfaces

From WHO website.

How long does the virus survive on surfaces?

The most important thing to know about coronavirus on surfaces is that they can easily be cleaned with common household disinfectants that will kill the virus. Studies have shown that the COVID-19 virus can survive for up to 72 hours on plastic and stainless steel, less than 4 hours on copper and less than 24 hours on cardboard.

As, always clean your hands with an alcohol-based hand rub or wash them with soap and water. Avoid touching your eyes, mouth, or nose.

average_runner

RunRoryRun wrote: »

From WHO website.

How long does the virus survive on surfaces?

The most important thing to know about coronavirus on surfaces is that they can easily be cleaned with common household disinfectants that will kill the virus. Studies have shown that the COVID-19 virus can survive for up to 72 hours on plastic and stainless steel, less than 4 hours on copper and less than 24 hours on cardboard.

As, always clean your hands with an alcohol-based hand rub or wash them with soap and water. Avoid touching your eyes, mouth, or nose.

And the germans who did their own study in their epicenter found no evidence to support that it can transfer to you

You should always wash your hands after being out even before the virus was here.

We don't disinfect anything that comes from the shops.

JTMan

average_runner wrote: »

If u can work from home you be still doing it for the next 8 months.

Companies will have to obey social distancing in the office etc.

Hot desks will be the new thing now and companies know they can down scale on building size and still function at 100%

Agreed that the most likely outcome is that those who can work from home will continue to do so until a vaccine is available.

Obeying social distancing in the office is very difficult. Think about meeting rooms, kitchens, toilets, narrow corridors and 2 meter distance between desks. Does not compute. Maybe a very carefully managed 15% of staff could return, where you give them all separate desks, close all meeting room, close all kitchens, separate urinal standing, ban hot desking/moving desk, have cleaners in every night etc. However, it gets to the point of what is the point in this when your staff can work from home.

I am not sure how hot desks can work. Can companies really afford to be paying cleaners to be doing a deep clean of everyone's desk very frequently? What if people leave things behind which always happens? Hot desking seems incompatible with safe virus-free working spaces.

RunRoryRun

average_runner wrote: »

And the germans who did their own study in their epicenter found no evidence to support that it can transfer to you

You should always wash your hands after being out even before the virus was here.

We don't disinfect anything that comes from the shops.

Ok - that’s fine. Im not trying to start an argument so hope it’s not taken that way. The study you reference is about whether or not it can transfer to you from surfaces, not whether it can survive on surfaces.

I’m just putting a response to your comment on living on surfaces as it is contrary to WHO info. Which, for balance, at a time like this is the responsible thing to do.

Incidentally, we’re the same and don’t disinfect things that come from the supermarkets.

average_runner

JTMan wrote: »

Agreed that the most likely outcome is that those who can work from home will continue to do so until a vaccine is available.

Obeying social distancing in the office is very difficult. Think about meeting rooms, kitchens, toilets, narrow corridors and 2 meter distance between desks. Does not compute. Maybe a very carefully managed 15% of staff could return, where you give them all separate desks, close all meeting room, close all kitchens, separate urinal standing, ban hot desking/moving desk, have cleaners in every night etc. However, it gets to the point of what is the point in this when your staff can work from home.

I am not sure how hot desks can work. Can companies really afford to be paying cleaners to be doing a deep clean of everyone's desk very frequently? What if people leave things behind which always happens? Hot desking seems incompatible with safe virus-free working spaces.

I think the phrase deep clean is over used.

Our cleaner would use a disinfectant on our desk most nights before the virus was here.

Or leave the disinfectant spray at the desk and people use it daily.

Ww just need to be more aware and get on with things, I hope there be a vaccine but I doubt it, we don't have one for the flu and how many years is that around

RunRoryRun

average_runner wrote: »

Ww just need to be more aware and get on with things, I hope there be a vaccine but I doubt it, we don't have one for the flu and how many years is that around

We have flu vaccines (also called flu shots) and they are updated about twice a year. Flu changes slightly all the time so the vaccines are developed regularly in response to the most common strains. You’re right in that we don’t have ONE, but we have had loads based on the variations of flu that existed in the years the vaccine was developed.

average_runner

RunRoryRun wrote: »

We have flu vaccines (also called flu shots) and they are updated about twice a year. Flu changes slightly all the time so the vaccines are developed regularly in response to the most common strains. You’re right in that we don’t have ONE, but we have had loads based on the variations of flu that existed in the years the vaccine was developed.

Exactly on previous strains or how they hope it will mutate.

Also remember the flu vaccine can give u the flu

But covid-19 is more complex and has more strains of protein in it that the flu. Think it was said to of have 29 strains of protein hence cant find the weakness in it.

The best in the world are working on it so there is always hope

marvin80

If a workplace isn't not adhering to government guidelines, what rights do employees have?
Or who can the employees make a complaint to?

Seve OB

marvin80 wrote: »

If a workplace isn't not adhering to government guidelines, what rights do employees have?
Or who can the employees make a complaint to?

WRC I would imagine

JTMan

PWC to make tracking app mandatory as part of return to work. FT article here (might be paywalled)

While governments and tech companies are working on voluntary tools that send similar alerts, these may not be widely adopted. By contrast, PwC said companies could make its tool mandatory. 

“You really need a majority of people to do this,” said Rob Mesirow, who leads PwC’s connected solutions practice.

PwC’s solution uses both the Bluetooth and WiFi functions of an employee’s smartphone to anonymously map how employees interact. 

In the event of a person informing human resources they had been infected, authorised personnel would enter their information into the system “and within seconds, it will trace everybody”