Zwift spins

new2tri19

CramCycle wrote: »

So the A B C D cats have nothing to do with your finishing in a race and are solely related to power output, so if you get dropped straight away but put out lots of power TTing on your own, you could get upgraded even though the rider who went like the clappers for 5 minutes and then sat in and ended up in the top 10 may not even come close as the average power was not as high as yours. Zwift has a different craft to riding road.

My recommendation, or experience has been to go well above your FTP for the first 2 to 5 minutes just to stay near the front. The race will settle and if you settle in, great, if you don't you'll be dropped. Tip along and the next group you see coming, ramp up to tag on and repeat. Eventually you find a group you can hold onto.

Truth is if you have the power to get into B and you had known how races go in Zwift, you'd have done well in C and got boosted in a week or so anyway.

At the minute I am racing 3 times a week and doing Alpe du Zwift once, it is probably too much but its better than nothing. Zwift races take alot more out of your legs than regular races.

That's great advice thanks 👠, I've never been in a normal bike race so that Zwift is very daunting .
I don't mind racing every time I get on the bike but that will be all the bike riding I do for the week. I run every other day ( mostly easy aerobic ) so I suppose the run is similar to an easy bike ride.

Have you made improvements with racing 3 times a week ?
I'd like to get up this Alpe in under 50 mins do you have any tips ?
Thanks

CramCycle

new2tri19 wrote: »

That's great advice thanks 👠, I've never been in a normal bike race so that Zwift is very daunting .
I don't mind racing every time I get on the bike but that will be all the bike riding I do for the week. I run every other day ( mostly easy aerobic ) so I suppose the run is similar to an easy bike ride.

Have you made improvements with racing 3 times a week ?
I'd like to get up this Alpe in under 50 mins do you have any tips ?
Thanks

Yes and no to the improvements. Followed advice on here to ease up outside of races for recovery and while I still feel pooped, I am definitely placing better. Alot of it though has to do with simply getting used to Zwift races. Now I know to start ramping up my watts before the race begins. My average Watts over a race has been around the 280W mark. On the startline as soon as the 10 second counter starts I slowly wind up my watts so I am well north of 400W starting, sometimes way over and that puts me near the front in small races and keeps me away from the back in large races. Large races will split easier and often earlier IMO so you want to hammer your way up the front ASAP As soon as I am near the front (or not at the back) I try to ease off slightly until I settle in at the right speed to keep up there. If its too high for me, I will eventually get shelled, that's why I prefer the races with time splits as racing with the As will kill you quickly.

Ill give last nights race as an example, it was short so you know it is going to be a fast start. 40 in my Cat B but 165 in total, all at the same time. Great thing about this is if you can hold the As at the front, you will be a high up finisher. We took off and I crossed the start line around 80th. Hammer down, not a sprint but well above my FTP, and I get to top 20, even came round one corner in 1st place. this isn't sustainable. I ease slightly, back to 20th, ease a bit more and I am back to 50th. So I know I have eased too much as if it splits (we are doing north of 60kmph) I am gone. I push a bit harder and I just get on the right side of a split for a change and I end up in the top 30. It is tough going but I only have 4 Bs in this group, the rest are As. If I can hang in, it is guaranteed 4th. I stupidly mistook a small descent as the main descent and powered off, burned a few matches and paid for it. I held in for another lap or so before i fell out the back when I just didn't have the push to grab back on. Now here is where I made my mistake, I couldn't decide to sit up and wait for the chase group (45seconds behind) or keep TTing and maybe stay away but if they catch me I would be done for. I keep flicking between the two. Make a decision and stick to it. If you accept being caught, rest up, not go slow but get your HR down and slowly ramp up again as they get close to passing you and merge in with them. If your not waiting, don't wait, you have decided it is a TT, head down, pick a sustainable number and plan not to walk right for the evening. As the km count down, they get closer and closer, when they get to 5 seconds, I give in and let it happen as it will anyway. I need to pedal hard enough that I can ramp upto catch their tails but also rest enough that I have energy to actually do that. They blow past and I surge, 4m gap, 3m gap, 1m gap, I am on and work my way into the middle of the group. They are about 20 in total, all Bs, so you know the sprint is going to be full on. I rest but we are 1km from the line so not a huge amount of time. 2 riders attempt to break but more interestingly, we are not far off the As. I quickly assess and realise though if they wanted to catch them, they needed to have ramped up about 1km ago, not now. I sit in and accept that those 2 are either gone or they will be caught (one was caught). A few wheels back from the front of the group, it is getting twitchy as some riders speed up and slow down to try and goad the nervous riders into sprinting. It works, a few riders swarm me, I am back in 45th, we hit 300m I have nothing but its now or never, I put the head down at 250m and hammer it. Its not a great sprint but apparently it is partially uphill and these breaks the group. I look up and we still have 90m to go so I put the head down again, I cross the line, 31st. When on my own I was 28th so I only lost 3 places by being caught, if I'd sat up earlier, I would have had more for the sprint, if I had TT'd or hung onto the As for 1km more, I might have stayed away.

In the lap they got away from me the As put over a minute into me, and the Bs recovered 45seconds in total. At that speed I reckon if I had held onto the As for another half a lap, I would have been clear of the chase group even if I blew up. You never know though, but it is fun figuring it out.

For short hills, just get out of the saddle and hammer it, for short descents, don't ease upto much as the stronger riders will plough on. For the long descents though, rest up, get your HR down. just get ready to bump your power at the bottom as this gains the most places in my experience. Long climbs are just a war of attrition. I typically just pick a rider and follow them to motivate me.

As for Alpe du Zwift, I got mine down to just over 50 minutes on my second attempt, 55minutes was my first. My only tips are don't burn matches too early, if you have saved anything you can start pumping out the Watts after the last corner. If you can see your last watts corner to corner, you have a target to meet or beat, this is what I aimed for. I had my first attempt in my head and just made a point of being a little bit higher on the average between points. Not the whole way, just a little bit higher, it gave a target that wasn't a race. Occasionally i would look up and pick a rider or dot on the screen and say I want them before this or that corner so I could make it into a race in my head, which also helped.

new2tri19

That's a great post thanks , loads of info there to digest. It's definitely great fun racing and figuring it out. Well done you seem to be flying at the racing , I'm thinking the racing can only make you stronger I'm just a bit weary of only doing hard efforts on the bike but easy spins at 100watts are mind numbingly boring.

Had a go at Alpe last week ( first attempt ) 53mins my legs where restless that night couldn't sleep but was fine next day , I have noticed though my heart rate won't rise as much lately staying lower on runs by 5-10bpm so the cycling is having an effect .
Haven't managed to stand up on bike as much as I'd like , wouldn't be a problem in real life hill but turbo feels weird standing when the nose of the bike is down.

Great post man thanks ðŸ‘

Daroxtar

new2tri19 wrote: »

Had a go at Alpe last week ( first attempt ) 53mins my legs where restless that night couldn't sleep but was fine next day , I have noticed though my heart rate won't rise as much lately staying lower on runs by 5-10bpm so the cycling is having an effect .
‘

You sound almost exactly like I did about a fortnight ago after constant hammering myself in Zwift. Took it easy over the last week or ten days and hit my best power output yesterday in the TTT and also saw my HR rising higher than had been for a couple of weeks. Rest is just as important as intensity

dahat

Lads racing 3 - 4 times per week at full gas on Zwift will empty pretty quickly over a month. It's best to race like this in blocks then reduce to 1 per week for a block & build again. Try be sensible in your approach to Zwift racing and you'll be fine.

The great thing about Zwift is there will always be a race no matter what time of day, month or season.

dahat

Cycling Ireland Rd9

Jesus that was rough this morning, I'd been confident all week of a possible win but that went pop on the first of 4 laps, down 30 secs, the horror. Those punchy gradients killed me every lap with anything over 10% beyond my rump so it was battle every time to stay with the lead group after getting back on.
On the very last dig I misjudged & a couple of my rivals jumped off to sprint it out for the minors as a lad had a hefty lead that he held into for the win B race win. I think I'll get another top 10 finsh but a bit disappointed to not get a podium.

Another all time 60mins power peak shows how hard these races are.

I also came in at 4.2w/kg for 20mins so another couple of days waitong on possible regrading ahead. As I'm quite a few kgs heavier than most putting out decent 20min power just to hang on at times.

CramCycle

After hearing reports back, kinda glad my broadband packed it in his morning.

dahat

I'd have hit my router with a hammer if I knew what was ahead of me. Crazy tough course.

Bambaata

14th today overall and i think 8th or 9th Irish again. Horrible circuit, very little chance to recover and plenty of sections where you have to go near max effort to stay there. I survived with the leaders until the last part of 3rd lap and from there it was a case of trying to make sure we werent caught. Had one for company and managed to get the jump on him. Not that i would have stayed with leaders for much longer but i got caught out lapping people, a gap opened between them and the leaders and i didnt react in time, in no time they were gone! Happy enough and the 3rd hard effort in 3 days, i really wish Triathlon Ireland would open up their TTs to all week!!

dahat

I'll give you credit, some lad to hammer yourself on Zwift.


Your recovery strategy must be near perfect!!!

JimmiesRustled

dahat wrote: »

I'll give you credit, some lad to hammer yourself on Zwift.


Your recovery strategy must be near perfect!!!

We're a couple of months into the season now. I know I'd be racing up to 4 times a week at this stage. I don't reckon racing 3 times a week on Zwift would be over doing it unless you're combining it with intervals as well. Plus hes done a Rás so 3 hard days should be handy for him 😉

Bambaata

dahat wrote: »

I'll give you credit, some lad to hammer yourself on Zwift.


Your recovery strategy must be near perfect!!!

I seem to be recovering well, had two days off this week which helps. My hard days are Monday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday. Other days all easy. The efforts arent too long either. You seem to be getting the hang of zwift now too

dahat

Bambaata wrote: »

I seem to be recovering well, had two days off this week which helps. My hard days are Monday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday. Other days all easy. The efforts arent too long either. You seem to be getting the hang of zwift now too

I wasn't aware of your well proven quality, workload seems appropriate now given training g for peaks etc.

Yes, I'm enjoying the racing but moving back to one per week now with a change in focus for the next block of training. Heading towards some well needed road work with midweek intervals.

I've won one B race so that will do for the season of nothing else happens.

J Madone

dahat wrote: »

Cycling Ireland Rd9

Jesus that was rough this morning, I'd been confident all week of a possible win but that went pop on the first of 4 laps, down 30 secs, the horror. Those punchy gradients killed me every lap with anything over 10% beyond my rump so it was battle every time to stay with the lead group after getting back on.
On the very last dig I misjudged & a couple of my rivals jumped off to sprint it out for the minors as a lad had a hefty lead that he held into for the win B race win. I think I'll get another top 10 finsh but a bit disappointed to not get a podium.

Another all time 60mins power peak shows how hard these races are.

I also came in at 4.2w/kg for 20mins so another couple of days waitong on possible regrading ahead. As I'm quite a few kgs heavier than most putting out decent 20min power just to hang on at times.

How did you fair out overall, did you place?

dahat

J Madone wrote: »

How did you fair out overall, did you place?

9th on ZP with a likely higher place on CI only riders.

J Madone

dahat wrote: »

9th on ZP with a likely higher place on CI only riders.

Well done

CramCycle

dahat wrote: »

Lads racing 3 - 4 times per week at full gas on Zwift will empty pretty quickly over a month. It's best to race like this in blocks then reduce to 1 per week for a block & build again. Try be sensible in your approach to Zwift racing and you'll be fine.

The great thing about Zwift is there will always be a race no matter what time of day, month or season.

100% but it's my only social output and I'm not to pushed about results as I thought I would be. If I beat someone I shouldn't or place higher than I thought possible, I'm happy out. Gonna go hell for leather tomorrow morning since I didn't get going today. Recovery is for serious athletes, not for me.

new2tri19

I did a race on Zwift it was Bologna circuit , 2 times up a hill . Anyway I didn't go flat out because ended up on my own and didn't pedal down the hills.
When I finished Zwift told me I had a new ftp 235-243w when I check zwift power I see I averaged 243watts for the race which was 57 mins or so and normalised power says 252watts.
Does normalised power mean the power you could hold for an hour riding steady ? Should I assume that is my FTP? Or is it a little more complicated than that ?thanks

yop

Lads if any of ye are on next Saturday 14 of us are attempting the vEverest for Croi charity.
If you're doing alpe du zwift Saturday keep an eye out.
I'm starting at 00:00 on sat morning.

joey100

Whats your plan for the vEveresting? Just done one on Sat, so if you have any questions or I can be any help ask away.

nilhg

new2tri19 wrote: »

I did a race on Zwift it was Bologna circuit , 2 times up a hill . Anyway I didn't go flat out because ended up on my own and didn't pedal down the hills.
When I finished Zwift told me I had a new ftp 235-243w when I check zwift power I see I averaged 243watts for the race which was 57 mins or so and normalised power says 252watts.
Does normalised power mean the power you could hold for an hour riding steady ? Should I assume that is my FTP? Or is it a little more complicated than that ?thanks

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/what-is-normalized-power/

new2tri19

nilhg wrote: »

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/what-is-normalized-power/

Seems to be alot of varying information some people say normalised power is equal to ftp if it's an hour effort , doesn't seem that clear cut . I'll split the difference between zwift ftp as normalised power and take that as my new FTP for workouts.

dahat

Why not just do a re test?

new2tri19

dahat wrote: »

Why not just do a re test?

Is it possible to suck at these tests ?,I found the motivation hard doing a ramp test , I know I'll push much harder trying to chase someone's wheel that's 4 seconds up the road. I got ftp of 220w on last ramp test about 2 months ago , then started doing races of 1 hour and just used my average power as my new ftp.
Was holding 235w average for an hour a few weeks ago now last 4 efforts have all averaged 242-244w for an hour so zwifts guess of 243w is probably my ftp. Although my last race wasnt all out as definitely didn't pedal down hill and took a psychological rest in middle when ended up isolated. 243 for an hour seems doable if I was to hop on a trainer now so my guess is that's low aswell . Noticed normalised power was 252w and that feels more accurate.

yop

joey100 wrote: »

Whats your plan for the vEveresting? Just done one on Sat, so if you have any questions or I can be any help ask away.

We've done a few recons of it, did the base camp yesterday but I suffered badly so I have ordered a 34 cassette for the back.

Food wise what did you aim to consume per hour roughly and water wise?
I pushed in 6 litres of water yesterday and burned over 4500 cals.

Starting at 12am will bring its own fun as the lads are not on until 4am but Ill be grand.

Any advice there besides?

I'm gonna get a couple of pizzas cooked and have a slice after every ascent to push up the calories, potatoes with salt to keep that going and then just cookies, jellies, gels etc while on the bike to keep me sane.

Have to watch the coffee and coke intake I think as I could seriously bonk

lukegjpotter

new2tri19 wrote: »

Is it possible to suck at these tests ?,... I know I'll push much harder trying to chase someone's wheel that's 4 seconds up the road.

This was covered on the TrainerRoad Podcast a few months ago.
They answered a question about if they should take their FTP from a max 20min power from a race or from a ramp test.

IIRC, they more or less said "take it from the ramp test".
They cited that in a race, you're more motivated, probably caffeinated up and sugared up. This may not be the case for your workouts. They also factored in the expected power drop from riding on the trainer.

If you're racing with the same Caffeine and Sugar intake as you are for training workouts, then you can take the FTP from a Race.

Also for an actual 20 minute FTP test, there are intervals before the test to wear you out a bit. With a Zwift Race, you're starting fresh, so you'll get a higher number.

Where, in reality, your real number, not your ego number, is lower.

An overreaching FTP can lead to over training and stressing the incorrect systems.
An underestimated FTP might lead you to get a lesser quality training, but it's the consistency that brings improvement.
So maybe slightly lower is better than slightly higher in the long run.

joey100

@Yop, Your food idea is good, I had dark chocolate with chilli and then some clove rock just for something that wasn't sweet. Once you stay on top of it from the start you will be ok, little and often. I started with bottles of water+ electrolyte tabs and then had some with dilutant in it too. By about half way tho all I wanted was plain water, everything was just getting too sweet. Have a few pairs of shorts, jerseys and socks, comfort is a huge thing over that sort of time on the bike so make sure your comfortable. Edited to add, wear gloves, my hands suffered more than anything else and wasn't expecting it at all.

Coke was good towards the end alright, even for just getting the focus back a bit! I went solo but if your doing it with others just watch your own pacing, I found that I needed to keep the first few very easy, rather than starting too hard an slipping off and suffering as it went on.

lukegjpotter

yop wrote: »

We've done a few recons of it, did the base camp yesterday but I suffered badly so I have ordered a 34 cassette for the back.

Any advice there besides?

Best of luck with it.

Have you watched the Francis Cade videos from his Double vEverest?
He ate mostly sugar and smoothies.

With the 34t cassette, ensure that you don't cross chain the 50-34t as without a slightly longer chain you may strip your mech hanger.


Riding it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV17fgB-bkQ

Reviewing the ride: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p47WAvGfvO4

nilhg

new2tri19 wrote: »

Is it possible to suck at these tests ?,I found the motivation hard doing a ramp test , I know I'll push much harder trying to chase someone's wheel that's 4 seconds up the road. I got ftp of 220w on last ramp test about 2 months ago , then started doing races of 1 hour and just used my average power as my new ftp.
Was holding 235w average for an hour a few weeks ago now last 4 efforts have all averaged 242-244w for an hour so zwifts guess of 243w is probably my ftp. Although my last race wasnt all out as definitely didn't pedal down hill and took a psychological rest in middle when ended up isolated. 243 for an hour seems doable if I was to hop on a trainer now so my guess is that's low aswell . Noticed normalised power was 252w and that feels more accurate.

Try syncing a couple of weeks data into https://intervals.icu/ and see what estimation it comes up with, it'll use maximal efforts of over 3 minutes to estimate your FTP

yop

joey100 wrote: »

@Yop, Your food idea is good, I had dark chocolate with chilli and then some clove rock just for something that wasn't sweet. Once you stay on top of it from the start you will be ok, little and often. I started with bottles of water+ electrolyte tabs and then had some with dilutant in it too. By about half way tho all I wanted was plain water, everything was just getting too sweet. Have a few pairs of shorts, jerseys and socks, comfort is a huge thing over that sort of time on the bike so make sure your comfortable. Edited to add, wear gloves, my hands suffered more than anything else and wasn't expecting it at all.

Coke was good towards the end alright, even for just getting the focus back a bit! I went solo but if your doing it with others just watch your own pacing, I found that I needed to keep the first few very easy, rather than starting too hard an slipping off and suffering as it went on.

Thanks thats great pointers. The hands have sufffered from rubbing against the bars and the sweat.
I'm solo on this, the lads will be "there" but most are 10-20kg lighter than me so I just plough on on my own.

I am hoping that it will go a bit as I go from dark to sun.

lukegjpotter wrote: »

Best of luck with it.

Have you watched the Francis Cade videos from his Double vEverest?
He ate mostly sugar and smoothies.

With the 34t cassette, ensure that you don't cross chain the 50-34t as without a slightly longer chain you may strip your mech hanger.


Riding it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV17fgB-bkQ

Reviewing the ride: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p47WAvGfvO4

I haven't watched that but definitely will.
Umm, thats something I haven't taken into consideration. I much check it.