Creche charging for child's place during closure.

salmocab

Millem wrote: »

The government announced today they will pay 70% of staff wages up to €410 if the business will pay 30%.
Hopefully crèches might avail of this?

I’m sure most will certainly see if they can make it work. Without cash coming in that might be beyond some/most. It’s a good deal from the government.

Millem

salmocab wrote: »

I’m sure most will certainly see if they can make it work. Without cash coming in that might be beyond some/most. It’s a good deal from the government.

I won’t though would ecce payments cover the 30%?

salmocab

Millem wrote: »

I won’t though would ecce payments cover the 30%?

Wouldn’t think so

neris

Millem wrote: »

I won’t though would ecce payments cover the 30%?

Not a chance in a full creche with a good few staff

neris

Millem wrote: »

The government announced today they will pay 70% of staff wages up to €410 if the business will pay 30%.
Hopefully crèches might avail of this?

I think this is meant more business who might have to reduce hours while they still operate and trade and are getting an income. Any business not getting an income and paying 30% staff wages would want a chunky bank balance to be able to reopen when ever that will be

Millem

neris wrote: »

Not a chance in a full creche with a good few staff

How much does a crèche worker earn per week €400?
Government pays €280 plus €69 for lower ecce rate. (Could be more?) That is €349 per weeks.
If they charge the staff of a retainer of €150 per month that is say another €35 per week.

Obviously this does not cover their rent etc.

The easier option for a crèche is to keep receiving all the ecce payments and subsidies and to let their staff go. Their staff will now receive €350 per week.

cherryghost

I contacted my creche regarding payments but no reply. Left them a mail on Friday instead

salmocab

Millem wrote: »

How much does a crèche worker earn per week €400?
Government pays €280 plus €69 for lower ecce rate. (Could be more?) That is €349 per weeks.
If they charge the staff of a retainer of €150 per month that is say another €35 per week.

Obviously this does not cover their rent etc.

The easier option for a crèche is to keep receiving all the ecce payments and subsidies and to let their staff go. Their staff will now receive €350 per week.

Average wage is about 12 an hour, there was something on boards about it a few months back when there was protests.

Steviesol

neris wrote: »

You do know ecce payments are **** all in the running of a creche

I beg to differ , the crèche I work for would be closed if it wasn't for the ecce payments. A huge help.we are not charging parents during closure, never charge during Christmas . Some years are tough but , good the last two. But we are not in it to make a profit.

neris

Steviesol wrote: »

I beg to differ , the crèche I work for would be closed if it wasn't for the ecce payments. A huge help.we are not charging parents during closure, never charge during Christmas . Some years are tough but , good the last two. But we are not in it to make a profit.

Unless its a community creche or getting higher rates of capitation ECCE is very low. Are you thinking of CCSP?

youcancallmeal

Looks like all the worrying for nothing

salmocab

youcancallmeal wrote: »

Looks like all the worrying for nothing

Seems like good news

Slattsy

That is some welcome news. Well done CZ.

Child number two was due to start in May. Dreaded the thought of having to pay two fees when she wouldn't have set foot in the place!

Toastytoes

salmocab wrote: »

Seems like good news

Lots of owners of crèches around the country have shown their true colours by now, I’d remember that going forward.

Cabaal

iwillhtfu wrote: »

I've paid creche for the entire month of March and told by a staff member yesterday they're not getting paid during the closure. :rolleyes:

Thisn't doesn't surprise me one bit,
Many creche owners happy to profit from this

Mech1

Ive been through this years ago all kids outta creche now. BUT,,, Nows your chance, take it, tell every creche owner that the government agree with you over this and that you also wont be paying for any future creche down time. This will only work if everyone joins in, spread the word.

salmocab

Toastytoes wrote: »

Lots of owners of crèches around the country have shown their true colours by now, I’d remember that going forward.

The customers move on constantly I doubt they really care. Some tried to profit but I’d say most were trying to save their businesses.

appledrop

It is sorted now by the looks of it but I wont be forgetting this one.

I cant believe our creche were asking us to pay for April while admitting when I asked that they had made their staff sign on from the day they closed.

Disgusting way to treat the staff. I love the staff in our actually creche + they are not the directors/owners but annoyed for them at how they have been treated.

Millem

Would this deal cover the self employed Montesorri teachers who do not have any staff? In my area there are 3 maybe more.

Toastytoes

I’m assuming the bail out for the crèche will be backdated to the date they were forced to close. Does that mean the balance of our March fees will be refunded?

JoBooy

Toastytoes wrote: »

I’m assuming the bail out for the crèche will be backdated to the date they were forced to close. Does that mean the balance of our March fees will be refunded?

A very good question...

neris

As of this evening what has been announced in the media has not been confirmed to any childcare service and no providers were aware of or agreed to anything with the dept. It seems the media get informed of what's happening before those involved which is typical of zappone

1874

powerstar wrote: »

Hi,
Is there any legal way we approach this problem, I am sure creches can get support form govt like any other business now. I wonder why no one in the govt talking about this huge issue. It's better they come with a plan rather than each creche deciding their own rules.

There needs to be centralised rules regarding this, as to why its not being discussed? or wasnt originally? probably part because of dealing with CoronaVirus, uncertainty over how long this would go on/the realisation dawning on people and State organisation that this was going to go on longer then they expected, and also in part (both the state and businesses) not wanting to bring it up openly and discuss it initially. That it has come up like this tells me there has been widespread discussion by parents and its likely been directed to local/national politicians, which I consider occurred because there was limited/negative or NO information from reams of independant businesses where it was dealt with piecemeal as they saw fit. A plan should be in place to deal with closures of this or any nature, with some structure around dealing with any similar problems in the future, either exceptional or day to day. You simply cannot have private businesses making up all the rules and dealing with parents on a one to one basis.

GreeBo wrote: »

Employers are still paying staff whilst they are in receipt of significantly lower services.
I thought the point was obvious...

Many clearly are not, Id say from reading here and my own experience, they weren't paying from as early on as they could.

GreeBo wrote: »

The creche arent asking you out, the government has ordered creches to be closed.
I'm not "ok with that" by the way, but I think expecting the creche to keep you a place when you arbitrarily decide to stop paying them is crazy.

People/individuals/familys didnt arbitrarily decide not to pay, thats a completely different scenario than has occurred. You clearly have some very close direct connection with a creche/childcare setting. As for not being ok with it, well tough, you can still even write that?? you think isolation isnt required? Creches were closed by absolute neccessity, this isnt the creches fault and its exceptional circumstances, that said, it isnt the parents fault and jsut expecting/demanding parents pay up anyway (and its the expecting part without even clearly stating or stating at all, whats going on, from the childcare facilities themselves without anything in return which bother parents, when they then have to fund this all over again). Some have outright stated/demanded full payment.

GreeBo wrote: »

Not all creches have laid off their staff, mine hasnt for example.

That makes it sound like you're a parent saying that, but it also reads as "your" creche, which you haven't outright stated, but which would explain the replies you have made.
IMO whats needed is more clarity and certainty over this kind of circumstance (ie closures) both for parents, staff (employees) and organisations (businesses/owners), instead of a free for all, where most didnt have a clue what was going on or what was going to happen.
We (parents) already pay a high price for services and its highly reasonable that we get something in return, and not just the usual, "its exceptional circumstances" and "thats in the contract", well that attitude is able to be challenged, and it should be challenged widespread now as parents are the ones getting it in the neck, its great the State is stepping in, but this needs national rules so everyone knows what will be the outcome and what will/wont apply, rather than the free for all where private businesses can threaten/blackmail parents into submission and payment for NO service.

GreeBo wrote: »

Yes I'm terribly excited... :rolleyes:

You want it both ways, you cancel your agreement to keep paying them yet they have to honor the agreement to keep a place for your child.

When questioned as to why your answer is that they should simply "deal with it".

NO, that poster, like everyone else doesnt want it both ways, its creches that want it both ways/all their own way (bar the few exceptions where posters have stated to the contrary). Parents want a service they pay for honoured, parents didnt cancel at all, and creches arent honouring their end of the contract either, it goes both ways as you said, except its isnt the parents getting it all their way, it is completely the opposite. While this situation is exceptional, there are many examples where this kind of thing goes on and parents are simply expected to foot the bill with not only no service in return, they actually have to pay a second time if the service they pay for closes or is unavailable for any reason.

youcancallmeal wrote: »

We've still no word from our creche about whether they want full fees from April onwards. If we don't hear anything by Monday I think we're just going to bite the bullet and let them know we won't be paying and we understand if our children's places are not guaranteed when they re-open.

I'm fully convinced childcare and schools aren't re-opening until September at the very earliest, maybe even longer. Maybe that's just me being a pessimist. If I'm wrong and and they do re-open sooner and we have no place in the creche then we'll just have to cross that bridge when we come to it.

I wouldnt contact them at all if I was you, even saying anything or putting it in writing could be construed as an instruction to cease your childs care, maybe it could be used against you in the future as an opinion/view of your intentions, even if they cannot use it against you now, they might in the future. If your creche/childcare like the one I utilise didnt even have the courtesy to inform you of what might happen around payments or even suggested a full payment or even a tempting partial payment, then why should you even bother to contact them?
When in the past I had contacted the service I use, when no service was provided (even before all of the recent events), I was given a very blunt, I would say, a rude, and even a hostile response, I was told NOT one other parent questioned making payments for NO Service and they were all happy to pay, which I considered unlikely and an outright lie as they were so specific in replying with information I had not asked for or about (ie what other parents allegedly said). I considered at that time, I was essentially threatened with termination of the service provided to me for even daring to question them (as end of service was mentioned). They knew we were between a rock and a hard place. In this instance, I didnt even bother contacting them and fully intended just not doing so and not paying them, this has obviously come up if its being dealt with by the State.

Millem wrote: »

Today we should find out more re schools reopening but it is safe to say it won’t be next Monday!!!

It shouldnt even be on the table for discussion, they are just getting a handle on organising dealing with and responding to this situation, any comment or report suggesting when childcare or schools might or will open is pointless IMO, schools should definitely just be out till Sept, there is not one idea of how many people are infected/affected as many like myself, based on my own experience and usual response to medical stuff, is to deal with it myself as was also advised by the HSE, so they still dont know how this will go, we are not over the hump yet, reintroducing children to childcare right now would be foolish IMO, may as well get the pain out of the way and stick this out in the nearterm so it doesn't rear its head again or is less likely to and if it does with less impact so we have a more manageable situation in the future.

unseen wrote: »

We got an email yesterday saying that the fees will be 50% down for April.

Youre happy with that? for no longterm servie in exceptional circumstances, at best there should be a 5 or 10% fee, maybe, but based on the fact that people who have to avail of these services usually have no option and either one, both, all the main caregiver/bread winners are tax paying then really the State should just step in and there should be official rules regarding how this kind of thing is dealt with in the future in any scenario, including non exceptional/ie usual circumstances.

sentient_6 wrote: »

Thread is a mess which clearly reflects the disjointed nature of the industry.
Thankfully our creche got in touch saying no fees until back in action. Community creche in Co. Galway.

Thats a very reasonable outlook, and as you say Exactly why this industry needs to be regulated and why it needs to be sorted, we dont need a whole new state organisation to deal with this, just rules around existing Depts (revenue/Social/HSE) where its clear to all what will occur in certain situations and planning how to respond in new unforseen circumstances.
We are footing the bill, a high price for a State decision that childcare is run the way it is, we deserve fair and reasonable rules around what can and cannot occur, and not at the whim of a private organisation and fobbed off with "thats in your contract" or effectively blackmailed into submission.

youcancallmeal wrote: »

Looks like all the worrying for nothing

Well thats very easy to say in hindsight, but parents forking out a small fortune and no information and then being dealt with on a one to one basis where they are being either given no information or being outright told they have to pay, yep, worrying for nothing.

Toastytoes wrote: »

Lots of owners of crèches around the country have shown their true colours by now, I’d remember that going forward.

True colours, its been the case for too long, need rules around what businesses can and cant do regarding closures, cant just write into a contract that they are entitled to full payment and no service.

Just like a landlord cant write in or exclude terms in a tenancy contract, legislation was brought in to introduce specific requirements around that. Id have said objectors or those concerned about that legislation were those with the most to lose, there needs to be legislation around childcare/terms of service.
IMO this came up because it was widespread, and a body of people must have been contacting local/national politicians AND had the time to do so, rather than the usual situation where working people are either too busy or too tired to deal with things like this, there was an impetus to deal with this and I think the recent announcements points to that.

neris wrote: »

As of this evening what has been announced in the media has not been confirmed to any childcare service and no providers were aware of or agreed to anything with the dept. It seems the media get informed of what's happening before those involved which is typical of zappone

That seems to be the way it goes here, at least it gives some clarity and lets all breathe a bit and gives some certainty to parents, employees and businesses. I dont particularly like Zapponne, but You cant really expect the State to make announcements any other way! It would be unrealistic and impractical to suggest they now start ringing every business in the country informing them individually of whats going on and checking if they're ok with that too? as for the agreed bit, whats there to disagree with?, private businesses shouldnt get to disagree, its not like they can go in and hammer out a better agreement, it seems very favourable for all. Parents on the other hand were left in the dark, going by this thread, in most cases, very little or no information at all, or outright told they would be expected to pay 100%. If this is implemented I expect to not to have any payment requests for any period of non service. I wonder will it be backdated and will businesses come forward and credit parents for payments made already, essentially WE are making this payment out of state funds WE provide, so we are paying anyway, backdating will probably be unlikely and probably messy but then neither should businesses be able to back date payments unless they are doing refunds too.

If I get any requests for continued payment to hold a place I will question it.

tart29016

1874 wrote: »

I wonder will it be backdated and will businesses come forward and credit parents for payments made already, essentially WE are making this payment out of state funds WE provide, so we are paying anyway, backdating will probably be unlikely and probably messy but then neither should businesses be able to back date payments unless they are doing refunds too.

If I get any requests for continued payment to hold a place I will question it.

With regards to payment for March, I gathered many parents have paid in full but there does not appear to be any clarity in terms of a refund. But we are in a situation where we have not yet paid for March and wondering should we make a full or partial payment? Thanks

GreeBo

1874 wrote: »

T

Many clearly are not, Id say from reading here and my own experience, they weren't paying from as early on as they could.

I was talking about other industries where their staff are now working from home and still being paid, specifically not creches...the point was to compare other sectors.

lawred2

GreeBo wrote: »

I was talking about other industries where their staff are now working from home and still being paid, specifically not creches...the point was to compare other sectors.

Nonsense though as already pointed out to you.

Employer/employee relationship is in no way comparable to a service provider/service recipient relationship.

bluefinger

According to the times parents won't be asked for fees during closure.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/coronavirus-creches-will-not-ask-parents-for-fees-after-deal-with-state-1.4211230?mode=amp

sphinxicus

tart29016 wrote: »

With regards to payment for March, I gathered many parents have paid in full but there does not appear to be any clarity in terms of a refund. But we are in a situation where we have not yet paid for March and wondering should we make a full or partial payment? Thanks

IMO it depends on your relationship with your creche. If your creche were the type to threaten you with loss of your childs place then I would pay only what is owed for the service you were able to avail of, i.e. 1st - 12th March. They can claim the rest back from the Government.

If you have a good relationship with your creche then I would contact them, they may appreciate full payment for March to help them with their cashflow while they wait for their refund from the government. They may either then refund you or use payment as credit for when you go back.

I would expect the payment to be backdated to 13th March. It doesnt make sense to say the Government will pay creche workers wages but only from 24th March onwards. Time will tell i guess

youcancallmeal

There was a few unhappy creche owners on Joe Duffy today saying with the announcement last night they are in a really difficult position now because they aren't allowed to ask parents for money for the upkeep(Maintenance, mortgage, rent etc) of their properties. I didn't hear it all, my kids were running around screaming, but that was the gist of it

mirrorwall14

From my reading of it they get to keep the last 2.5 weeks of full payments by parents as this only starts from the new month so they can use that for the expenses