Working From Home Megathread

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119083886#Comment_119083886

I think that those against WFH have been pretty sanguine to this point, expecting that there’d be a gradual drift toward office normality over time. And indeed it did look like that was the case for a while

But my experience spending time in our Canary Wharf office, and speaking to others in the major employers there, is that the momentum of back to office has completely stalled and, in many cases, has gone into reverse. My company has softened the (already pretty relaxed) back to office plan. So I think the panic in those with a vested interest in office real estate is starting to set in….that this current situation is all of the return to office that we are likely to see

Sunny Disposition

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119083989#Comment_119083989

I would have been active enough in commercial property years ago, but I can't see how it retains its value over the next decade. Demand has fundamentally changed already, very few people in large cities are going to work in an office five days a week. Many are going to work 100% remotely, and most others are going to be in an office 2-3 days per week. I can't see a way past that, although obviously property owners and estate agents will predict otherwise. I reckon they'd be lucky to see demand fall by 40%, it could be significantly worse.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119083886#Comment_119083886

There are many examples of this type of graffiti appearing to try to obscure the writing on the walls that WFH is the future for many employees who rely on IT to do their work.

Mostly sponsored by the urban commercial property owners and businesses that depend on the passing trade that office workers provide.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119082695#Comment_119082695

Shame it omits the mental health and domestic violence costs borne by some workers.

They aren't reason to say "no remote work" - but they are something which government services will need to address.

It's also remarkably silent about the likely threats to Ireland's international competitiveness. Medium term, I think we will need to see wage rates here drop to match other countries with similar language profiles.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119084610#Comment_119084610

Lol

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119068182#Comment_119068182

Yep, the blinkered employers will learn the hard way while losing best and brightest. Well done.

A tangent I know but I have always been fascinated by counter-offers - Accepted counter-offers never seem to work out for several reasons. I suppose when you have been successful in an interview and you have eyes on a new chapter with fresh green fields, it can be difficult to reconcile the fact that you are actually staying where you are. It's easy to stay in the perceived safe haven than go out exploring new worlds. People get very disgruntled after they have accepted a counter-offer and most will leave anyway within 1-2 years. I did it myself once and lasted 15 months. I regretted staying at all. I saw one guy accept a counter offer and a 1 year retention bonus - he handed in his notice the day after he received the retention bonus.

PokeHerKing

Our place are still pushing for bums on seats but it's gone from 100%, to 75% to 50%.

I've worked up to 3 days over the last 2 months but I'm back to 2 days now. Its all so pointless.

I think inflation/fuel increases and the jobs market being so buoyant has just put a pin in the whole thing.

A massive recession/mass layoffs is the only way I see the power pendulum swinging back to companies who favour office models.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119085053#Comment_119085053

A massive recession/mass layoffs is the only way I see the power pendulum swinging back to companies who favour office models.

Even with that I wouldn't expect too much of a swing back.

Think about it. If you are let go, remote working opens up a vastly larger pool of potential employers than onsite-only.

I know personally, after 2 years of full time wfh, that I will never work in an office again for the rest of my career so who I work for or where they are located, is of little impact to me outside of tax compliance. I'll work for whoever let's me wfh and I won't apply for anything that doesn't.

Apple can't seem to make up its mind

https://gizmodo.com/apple-return-to-work-policy-alphabet-machine-learnin-1848942742

salonfire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119085357#Comment_119085357

A friendly Indian would also be willing to do your job remotely for 100 rupees a day. And don't come back with the Indian standards are terrible. They are the backbone of the entire IT industry, but they have to move to the West. Soon the West will move to them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119086818#Comment_119086818

We'll have to wait and see

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119086818#Comment_119086818

this has been the case for a decade or more. Remote working hasn’t suddenly changed that dynamic.

salonfire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119086872#Comment_119086872

Yes, it very much has. Previously, companies had employees on-site with the benefits that brings, whether tangible or not, employers believed there were benefits.

Now the West's employees want to stay at home.

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119086888#Comment_119086888

Given the price difference in Ireland vs Indian workers it wasn't the office benefits stopping them from shipping out jobs. To begin with they could of just set up an Indian office and done work through there.

salonfire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119086836#Comment_119086836

You think all those Indian nationals you see in the streets of Dublin, London, SF, Seattle want to be there away from their families? I am sure some do, but I'd imagine many would want to return to Indian cities to work. Indian graduates have a stronger case now to stay and work remotely. They can tell a Western company, "sure your own employees are remote as well. There's no disadvantage to me being remote as well"

When the defence is "We'll have to wait and see", there is no defence. That's a line straight out of Irish ploicy when the economy was crashing all around in 2008.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119086888#Comment_119086888

If the only thing saving your job is the location of your butt while doing the job, then it wasn't very secure to begin with

storker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119086872#Comment_119086872

True. Also, with regard to tech support jobs outsourced to India, I've seen a number of advert over recent years stressing that the support call centres were Irish. More than one western company has found out that outsourcing to India was not the panacea that was anticipated, with frequent power brown-outs and customers unhappy dealing with support people with whom communication was difficult and who had no real knowledge of the product and were instead relying on troubleshooting flowcharts.

storker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119086922#Comment_119086922

If they're staying and working remotely then their overheads are going to be similar to those of locally-based employees, so scope for undercutting will be limited.

More unions calling the government wfh legislation a bag of sh1te

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40875833.html

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119086818#Comment_119086818

This is where you're wrong.

Why would an Indian IT worker who has the same skills or better than someone Ireland accept less pay.

If an Irish person went to work in silicon valley in the states they would want expect parity of pay, and they would get it. The Indian worker is the same.

You have a slight advantage if you have domain and cultural knowledge of the business market you are in. But in a global market that can move and work anywhere you are your skills.

Flinty997

If you are outsourcing to save money that when you come up short. It's not outsourcing is your chasing savings and often go cheap. Which can have negative impact.

Language and cultural barriers are real. If you skimp on your outsourcing is where you are going to meet those problems.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119088138#Comment_119088138

Payrates are not equal worldwide, nor indeed is cost of living. Wages may be substantially lower in other countries, such as India, so it stands to reason that if the same standard of work can be sourced in a lower wage economy, there may be significant savings to be made my employers who no longer need their employees to attend offices.

salonfire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119088138#Comment_119088138

There are entire cities in India of tech employees. They seem happy enough to be paid less.

They have less overheads while still being relatively better off compared to the general population.

Why should Indian people have to uproot and move to the West. Since everyone is remote now, the playing pitch has been levelled.

Total head in the sand stuff how the downsides of remote work is not considered at all.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119088154#Comment_119088154

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119088156#Comment_119088156

Pay rates are the same for good people.

I've worked with tech outsourcing for decades. Remote working has been also been a factor almost all that time as well. Most of work I've done is with other countries and people not in my office.

I'll be in the office for some of today. Almost 100% of my work and related conversations will be with people not in that office. Same as always.

Yet people will tell me I need to be in the office.

salonfire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119088225#Comment_119088225

Were companies closing offices or reducing their footprint in the last 10 years? Were the majority of the on shore employees remote as well?

If your answer is no to any of these questions, then your not making a like to like comparison.

kippy

26 months down the line from the initial WFH rush and in some organisations it's as if we never managed to WFH in the first instance.

Will speak of my own experience. Public sector worker here in an organisation that would never have facilitated WFH prior to March 2020. In a role that traditionally would not be looked on as WFH "compliant". I've worked in the past in organisations with a WFH option (albeit not official) and in roles that would be very WFH "friendly".

March 2020 came and staff were sent home, business processes were changed, paper was removed from business processes and a shed load of non-necessary paperwork/signing was done away with. Staff were mandated to come back into the office 3 days a week at the tail end of 2021, they 5 days per week for the past couple of months.

People are actively looking for other jobs in organisations that have a solid WFH policy and trust employees to do the work. HR have said they are awaiting the leglislation before implmenting a WFH policy and that it would be open to apply for WFH subject to that set of policies whenever they are available.

The atmosphere in the office has been the worst I've seen it which isn't good for anyone.

Doesn't really bother me either way, my own attitude is if I amn't happy with the Ts and Cs of my employment I will look elsewhere however tha backoffice/admin staff have every right to WFH at least 80 percent of the time once the work is getting done. The organisation culture needs a serious revamp however as most of the decision makers are against WFH from what I can see and this will lead to issues with staff retention.

The leglislation looks to be utterly watered down and if the will isn't there from the employer then I don't see any WFH being approved.

Flinty997

The lower skilled IT workers may get less pay in other countries. But it's a mistake to think that applies across the board.

https://m.economictimes.com/tech/technology/tech-firms-may-hike-pay-by-120-to-hire-retain-niche-talent/articleshow/88555324.cms

https://content.techgig.com/technology/indian-it-firms-pay-better-than-us-based-companies-in-us/articleshow/71260205.cms

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119088225#Comment_119088225

Outsourcing considerations are not the same today as they were precovid. The challenges employers face with productivity and communication with someone like yourself in your home in Wicklow are exactly the same as those with an employee at home in Mumbai. Since the summer of 2020 recruiters have been saying in interviews that wfh opens up new opportunities for both employees and employers, both now have much broader choices as office, or even country presence is no longer a barrier. Where employers were primarily considering employees based on the office model, thanks to Covid/employee demands for wfh, they will all now have to consider wfh as the default model. That means the search for new staff has no geographical barriers, so both talent and cost will be foremost in their minds. This will no doubt evolve further in the coming years, but it stands to reason, there are now unprecedented opportunities for lower cost economies to become major suppliers of tech workforces, and for employers to make significant savings.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119088247#Comment_119088247

My answer is yes to most if not all of those questions in the places I've worked.

Which typical of most IT places I've worked in. Probably the more conservative ones.

I know quite a few IT Workers who were fully remote workers years before COVID.

salonfire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119088316#Comment_119088316

Your previous places obviously know better than Google, Facebook, Salesforce etc who embarked on huge work campsus before Covid. Impressive.