Bob Flavin (motoring journalist) & his views on EVs

Black_Knight

Bodhan wrote: »

Do you watch YouTube? Do you know that most YouTubers don't make any money while they are building an audience and that most of them only make a couple of Euro from the hundreds of hours of work?
It's not begging when you work for money. Everyone has to feed themselves and the kids, pay bills and have a life while working. People CHOOSE to support the channel but anyone can watch the videos for free 24 hours a day. There are no clickbait titles just topics to be discussed or headlines like any outlet in the world.
Example of Clickbait "This car has a secret you won't believe" 20 mins later your still waiting for the secret. "Irish people use this cream and you won't believe what for" that sort of stuff annoys me to but NONE of my videos have that kind of title.

Shopping bag hooks are vital, if they are missing it's a crap car straight off because what else will be missing if they have failed to put a tiny hook in the boot?

I think this was around the time you had a SS of "Is this the end for some car companies". I've sometimes clicked in with interest regarding a title, but as the format is basically a Q&A, the Qs (and thus the chat) don't necessarily reflect the title.

As for asking for support, I guess a mans gotta make a living. Just thought sometimes the patron or paypal shout outs were pretty frequent. Maybe it's just me.

The "shopping bag hooks" is actually a pretty handy niche of review. As you mention to sabreman, there are loads of the same type review videos out here, do something different. It was only a review Mark did of a model S that alerting me to the complete lack of internal storage in it.

Bodhan

Lumen wrote: »

I think Bob's a bit harsh on Fully Charged. Its editorial position is to be incredibly enthusiastic about all kinds of electrification, and whilst normally that could be construed as standard motor industry shilling, it does seem plausibly rooted in evangelicalism rather than cynicism. I can't imagine Robert needs the money that badly.

EVs aside, it must be incredibly difficult attempting any kind of objective journalism in motoring, even in a larger car market like the UK. It's easy for Clarkson to slag off cars when he doesn't rely on manufacturers to provide cars to review. Chris Harris (long before Top Gear) got blacklisted by Ferrari for calling them out on providing non-standard press cars, and Lamborghini for saying something like Lambo was the car choice for rich people that couldn't drive. The whole model is stacked against independence, the likes of Autocar is dripping with pro-JLR bias.

If you build your publication around being nice to car companies then there is no hope of long-term survival as the companies will expect you to be nice about all their models and that breeds the carrot and stick.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it really is more rare than you think. TopGear (TV) is always biased towards cars that are British and British made goods, that's normal for any outlet.
I get cars no matter what I say, the day I can't get access to a test car because of something I said in a video will result in me making a video exposing the car maker who doesn't like me, that's why Chris Harris did the same.
I'm lucky because I own my publication so I can't speak for those who work in a publication, I suppose they might have to turn down what they say to suit advertisers.

Bodhan

eagerv wrote: »

Fair play Bob for coming on here and being so open.
I don't always agree with your opinions but try and see most of your vids..


I thought you were very harsh on the new Civic when you first tested it about 3 years ago, I think it was a lousy wet cold damp Irish day. On a later test you sang it's praises. We have a 1.5 S-GT and I think in its price range (Could be bought for 28K then) it's hard to beat for its' drivability and standard equipment.


Anyway, best wishes for your channel.

Edit. Sorry for mentioning non EV's on this forum, forgot where I was..

I am open to any outlet, I don't always have the time to answer all the questions from everywhere so that's why the delay in answering here.

Honda make some great cars but for me they have never gotten all the greatness into one car and I still don't like the infotainment system. It's a good car that could have been great! Shame they got rid of things like the flip up back seats.

Thanks

Bodhan

kris_2021 wrote: »

Bob - what is your thought regarding ID3 first (pricing aside)?
any idea when you will get press car for review?

I think Volkswagen have some work to do and they have left themselves with a big hill to climb. They are trying to cut costs on one hand while turning out a brand new car running on batteries during a worldwide pandemic!

The car looks nice in the right colour, I hope they improve the plastics on the dash from the one we seen in Weston and they get the infrastructure right. Pricing is off but people will still buy it.

Late summer for the Press tests but I'd say Volkswagen will get customers in the car first, there's a press conference tomorrow morning that I might make a video from like the last one.

eagerv

Bodhan wrote: »

The car looks nice in the right colour, I hope they improve the plastics on the dash from the one we seen in Weston and they get the infrastructure right. Pricing is off but people will still buy it.

What are your views of the right colour?:)

sk8board

Great to see you here bob - motoring forums in general are full of self proclaimed experts, and EV forums are easily the worst of the current bunch.

I would think Bobs views on EVs are very much representative of the current Irish market conditions, and because of those market conditions (price, charging, range, quality etc), EVs still only represent 3% of NEW car sales (a record proportion) and god knows probably 1% of the national fleet.
It doesn’t mean the other 97% of new car buyers are clowns, it just means they value different things and can afford different things.

It’ll improve, but it’s going to take years and years.

Electricity is just a propulsion fuel, just like petrol or diesel. We need to move away from viewing an EV as some sort of completely different vehicle. It isn’t.

Have a good day folks.

Lumen

sk8board wrote: »

motoring forums in general are full of self proclaimed experts

boards.ie is just a bunch of anonymous randomers having the online equivalent of pub talk.

You can choose to take that as seriously as you want.

Black_Knight

sk8board wrote: »

Great to see you here bob - motoring forums in general are full of self proclaimed experts, and EV forums are easily the worst of the current bunch.

Lumen wrote: »

boards.ie is just a bunch of anonymous randomers having the online equivalent of pub talk.

You can choose to take that as seriously as you want.

Playing right into his hands. :rolleyes:

We're nice folk here, just have our guard up with all the neigh sayers dropping in stirring the pot. I think most here are happy enough to admit that electric isn't for everyone.

ELM327

Electric is not for everyone.
The cars that most people can (or want to)afford dont do the range, and the ones that do the range are too expensive

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

Electric is not for everyone.
The cars that most people can (or want to)afford dont do the range, and the ones that do the range are too expensive

And the choice is abysmal relative to the ICE market.

Bodhan

sk8board wrote: »

Great to see you here bob - motoring forums in general are full of self proclaimed experts, and EV forums are easily the worst of the current bunch.

I would think Bobs views on EVs are very much representative of the current Irish market conditions, and because of those market conditions (price, charging, range, quality etc), EVs still only represent 3% of NEW car sales (a record proportion) and god knows probably 1% of the national fleet.
It doesn’t mean the other 97% of new car buyers are clowns, it just means they value different things and can afford different things.

It’ll improve, but it’s going to take years and years.

Electricity is just a propulsion fuel, just like petrol or diesel. We need to move away from viewing an EV as some sort of completely different vehicle. It isn’t.

Have a good day folks.

Everyone is an expert at something and we can all learn something new. For some reason the people who tend to comment on EV videos always feel the person reviewing the car is automatically against electric. A lot of comments can be hostile on Twitter/YouTube/Facebook which can result in people being put off asking questions.
An EV needs to be treated and tested just like any other car, safe, useable, practical, comfortable and affordable.
The problem is, EV's aren't affordable for the masses yet. The promising one ID3 starts at 33,625 after grants (so 43,625 real price) when a Golf starts at 27,750 with no grants. 43,625 will get you into and Audi A4 and have a luxury family holiday! That price for a normal five-door hatchback is insane and the grants are distorting the market badly, yet the gold rush continues.

The more you criticise the critics the more car companies will walk all over the market to get a few more sales.

I'm not against EV's but I am against bad cars that are overpriced and have baffling systems for normal drivers.

Cheers for the comments Sk8board!

Bodhan

Black_Knight wrote: »

Playing right into his hands. :rolleyes:

We're nice folk here, just have our guard up with all the neigh sayers dropping in stirring the pot. I think most here are happy enough to admit that electric isn't for everyone.

Not playing into my hands, I didn't start this thread and I haven't posted a link to anything. I didn't stir any pots but when a thread is started about me I would suggest that the right of reply is a given?

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

And the choice is abysmal relative to the ICE market.

Absolutely.
When we get to the stage where you arent forced to choose by range, but instead by car type (like for example if you want a city car in fossil fuel you have a plethora to choose from, whereas there's only a couple in EV)

ELM327

Bodhan wrote: »

Everyone is an expert at something and we can all learn something new. For some reason the people who tend to comment on EV videos always feel the person reviewing the car is automatically against electric. A lot of comments can be hostile on Twitter/YouTube/Facebook which can result in people being put off asking questions.
An EV needs to be treated and tested just like any other car, safe, useable, practical, comfortable and affordable.
The problem is, EV's aren't affordable for the masses yet. The promising one ID3 starts at 33,625 after grants (so 43,625 real price) when a Golf starts at 27,750 with no grants. 43,625 will get you into and Audi A4 and have a luxury family holiday! That price for a normal five-door hatchback is insane and the grants are distorting the market badly, yet the gold rush continues.

The more you criticise the critics the more car companies will walk all over the market to get a few more sales.

I'm not against EV's but I am against bad cars that are overpriced and have baffling systems for normal drivers.

Cheers for the comments Sk8board!

Once the grants are removed we may see more competition.
If we need grants then they should be tax credits for the purchasers, not free cash for the OEMs

Black_Knight

Bodhan wrote: »

Not playing into my hands, I didn't start this thread and I haven't posted a link to anything. I didn't stir any pots but when a thread is started about me I would suggest that the right of reply is a given?

I was replying to Lumen

unkel

Bodhan wrote: »

EV's aren't affordable for the masses yet. The promising one ID3 starts at 33,625 after grants (so 43,625 real price) when a Golf starts at 27,750 with no grants.

The real price is the price after grants. It's the real price people pay. I don't support the €10k subsidy, but it is what it is. Also the ID3 currently is the premium first model with a big 58kWh battery and a relatively high spec. The base model next year is expected to cost about the same as a base model Golf

Let's pause there for a second. The purchase price is the same, but after that everything else is cheaper, from fuel to depreciation to tax and tolls and maintenance. The total cost of ownership of the base ID.3 is far cheaper than the total cost of ownership of the Golf. And has far higher performance and is a better drivers cars.

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

Once the grants are removed we may see more competition.
If we need grants then they should be tax credits for the purchasers, not free cash for the OEMs

Tax credits for purchasers are a terrible idea, they have the same affect as a grant, but concentrate the benefit with those who pay enough tax. Though in reality most people who are buying new cars probably pay enough tax anyway. We've all seen how Tesla reduced the entry cost for the Model 3 in line with the tax credit reductions.

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

Tax credits for purchasers are a terrible idea, they have the same affect as a grant, but concentrate the benefit with those who pay enough tax. Though in reality most people who are buying new cars probably pay enough tax anyway. We've all seen how Tesla reduced the entry cost for the Model 3 in line with the tax credit reductions.

They are better than grants to the OEMs though.
Anyone buying a new EV is likely paying enough tax.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

Once the grants are removed we may see more competition.
If we need grants then they should be tax credits for the purchasers, not free cash for the OEMs

liamog wrote: »

Tax credits for purchasers are a terrible idea, they have the same affect as a grant, but concentrate the benefit with those who pay enough tax. Though in reality most people who are buying new cars probably pay enough tax anyway. We've all seen how Tesla reduced the entry cost for the Model 3 in line with the tax credit reductions.

ELM327 wrote: »

They are better than grants to the OEMs though.
Anyone buying a new EV is likely paying enough tax.

Its a tough nut to crack. No easy solution to it as there is a consequence to every action.

- increase taxes on ICE.... not fair on those who are already struggling
- grants... OEM's lap it up
- tax credits to purchaser... not that different to the grant as OEM's will know you are claiming it back and will up the price anyway.
- leave it to the market... no incentive for OEM's to clean up.

No silver bullet here.

The only thing that is really driving change is the EU emissions targets. VW would be doing exactly zero only for that and while its not perfect it is something.

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

They are better than grants to the OEMs though.
Anyone buying a new EV is likely paying enough tax.

Nope, has the same affect, if VW know you are getting a €5,000 tax credit, they'll just up the price by €5,000. The only way it would work is if we all keep it secret from the auto manufacturers

Lumen

Basic economics: if you tax something, people will use less of it.

So if you want people to use less ICE and more EV, you hold taxes high on ICE and cut them on EV, which is exactly what the govt has done, not just here, all over the world.

At some point there will be enough EV market share to gain critical mass for charging infrastructure (not least at motorway service stations who will see their business model evaporating otherwise) and at that point EVs will be at TCO parity (if they're not already).

I was explaining charge point economics to an estate agent a few months ago and how it was a potential bonanza for pubs and restaurants located on major routes, with people "forced" to wait for their cars to charge. His eyes lit up.

It will come.

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

Nope, has the same affect, if VW know you are getting a €5,000 tax credit, they'll just up the price by €5,000. The only way it would work is if we all keep it secret from the auto manufacturers

Is it though?
This is how they do it in the US, tax credits, and their cars are cheaper than here.

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

Is it though?
This is how they do it in the US, tax credits, and their cars are cheaper than here.

The cheaper price on US cars is across the board, it's not an EV specific thing.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

The only thing that is really driving change is the EU emissions targets. VW would be doing exactly zero only for that and while its not perfect it is something.

Not the only thing. But I agree the stick usually works better than the carrot. Another stick is to radically increase VRT on new ICE cars, in particular diesel cars. And of course abolish the VAT rebate on diesel fuel.

liamog

I'd drop the €120/year tax for EVs (tiny carrot) and create an annually increasing VRT on new ICE cars, and used imports. That way it wouldn't punish those who already have a car, but would make it progressively more difficult to justify a purchase.

slave1

Brexit 31.12.20 will largely take car of imports but they could keep the VRT exemption for EV's to maybe keep them coming in?
We need the aggressive approach, zero tax, zero tolls, bus lanes, this has been mooted many times before, just for a few years until we reach decent penetration point

unkel

The VRT exemption is not related to the EU, so it will stay after Brexit comes into effect. But I'm not sure if a zero VAT rate on importing of EVs from outside of the EU is allowed for member states.

AndyBoBandy

liamog wrote: »

I'd drop the €120/year tax for EVs

Its gas (literally a gas!!) that our road tax system went emissions based 10+ years ago, yet cars with zero emissions still have to pay €120 a year!!

That needs fixing right away, followed by your idea of an annual increase in VRT on new & imported ICE cars.

And while we're there, once any Irish registered ICE is a certain age (10 years for diesel, 12-15 for petrol), slap on a change of ownership duty of €500 - €1,000 and/or an increased rate of annual road tax for every year older the car becomes... so every year beyond a certain age, the tax goes up by €50 per year.

Might seem a little draconian, but suddenly a lot (a lot) more people would be interested in EV ownership.

don't like it? buy an EV then...

frozenfrozen

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Its gas (literally a gas!!) that our road tax system went emissions based 10+ years ago, yet cars with zero emissions still have to pay €120 a year!!

That needs fixing right away, followed by your idea of an annual increase in VRT on new & imported ICE cars.

And while we're there, once any Irish registered ICE is a certain age (10 years for diesel, 12-15 for petrol), slap on a change of ownership duty of €500 - €1,000 and/or an increased rate of annual road tax for every year older the car becomes... so every year beyond a certain age, the tax goes up by €50 per year.

Might seem a little draconian, but suddenly a lot (a lot) more people would be interested in EV ownership.

don't like it? buy an EV then...

and let them eat cake as well

ELM327

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Its gas (literally a gas!!) that our road tax system went emissions based 10+ years ago, yet cars with zero emissions still have to pay €120 a year!!

That needs fixing right away, followed by your idea of an annual increase in VRT on new & imported ICE cars.

And while we're there, once any Irish registered ICE is a certain age (10 years for diesel, 12-15 for petrol), slap on a change of ownership duty of €500 - €1,000 and/or an increased rate of annual road tax for every year older the car becomes... so every year beyond a certain age, the tax goes up by €50 per year.

Might seem a little draconian, but suddenly a lot (a lot) more people would be interested in EV ownership.

To be fair, they are not zero emissions.
But the emissions taxes are structured around tailpipe emissions so in that matter they are 0.