Bob Flavin (motoring journalist) & his views on EVs

Bodhan

kaahooters wrote: »

you all seem to not like Bob cos he reviews cars , as well, cars, not EVs.
EVs arent cars to the general public,there a new fanged gadget.
His channel is for the general public, and trying to convince Mick down the pub that a leaf is better then his tdi golf isnt easy.

if you have an interest in EVs and where the private transport industry is going, you'll know more then most motoring journalists.

BUT, most motoring journalists do know more about EVS then the general public, it changing , but slowly.

You get it! Can't be a specialist in everything and can't just review EV's (yet) everything has a future and I want as wide an experience as I can get

Bodhan

minikin wrote: »

Big humour fan... It’s possible to understand something whilst also disliking it.
Do you like paddywhackery by English comedians?
No? Oh you mustn’t understand it.

Bob’s effort at a critique was embarrassing, sort of rubbish you hear spouted by barstool experts - on a global stage. Must try better Bob - you let the side down.

There's a link to ways of supporting the channel under every video. If I'm on a global stage I'd love some of the money and fame that goes with it!

Never judge any YouTuber by a single video, most of them are unfunded and have no help/researchers/producers or anyone to tell them if they are right, wrong or even funny. It isn't TV where there's someone right there with you telling you it isn't working.

Bodhan

minikin wrote: »

Precisely - and Bob should have done exactly what you do - clearly and helpfully explain the correct way to use the chargers, rather than acting the chump.

But being helpful is boring and won't get as many youtube views and comments ala TopGear... so everything is dumbed down nowadays (bob pronounces chademo "chamuddadedadahhhadah" for the lols... ignorance is feckin hilarious isn't it and nobody plays the thick better than paddy, eh?)

It's in all our interests to reduce the amount of fossil fuel being burned, doing things which discourage people from switching to EV is akin to telling smokers "quitting is too much hassle", sure you've all the patches to figure out... smoking is much easier - keep doing that until they invent the perfect pill that cures cancer.

Interesting, helpful videos sometimes get views but most people are becoming aware of chargers and how to use them. So I'm not sure it would be useful now

Bodhan

Lumen wrote: »

To put my criticism of Bob into context, and taking the wider question of "what sort of quality should be expect?" I think motoring journalism and its close bedfellow of car marketing has always been founded on about 80% lies and fantasy.

I used to be a big consumer of UK car mags, specifically Evo and Autocar. Evo used to do their testing around what became known as the "Evo triangle" in Wales, until the Welsh police cracked down on them. I remember one contributor getting a dangerous driving conviction for using an Evo VI like it was designed.

It does matter how a car goes, handles and stops. There is joy to had in in the simple act of driving. But that doesn't change the fact is that about half of all motoring journalism is escapist nonsense, and not just Top Gear, because it's based around driving cars at illegal speeds on empty roads. Fast cars sell magazines, or used to when magazines were a thing.

Anyway, all that is mostly in the past....

Now we have Youtube and most of the EV output is about Teslas, and much of that output in the last few years is about drag strip performance.

Here is a perfect example of the total bull**** being produced now. It's a review of a track package (irrelevant for probably >95% of owners) from someone who has apparently no idea of how to drive on track. It manages to be both uninformed AND overproduced.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXyEgl9rFN4

Sigh. At least the Autocar, Evo and Top Gear lads can drive.

Anyway, there is some promising Irish output for Bobphobes, for instance EV TV Ireland!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgswF_RD93sbbHEKcMEx0Ww/videos

Making videos is very hard, there's so much to do and I'm alone. I have to set the camera, make sure the sound is working and there's no wind noise and that's after parking the car, driving there, testing the car and trying to think what to say about it.
The publications like Autocar, EVO, TopGear are all funded to make content so it's a job where there's a salary and an editor. Most YouTubers are alone.
EVTV is cool, tech stuff and probably a bit above the average ICE driver who wants a laugh and to hear about a twin turbo. Nice fella running it too

Bodhan

ELM327 wrote: »

Let's take this video for a start.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZBDgvSHhLs


Begins with terrible logo and a circled google map.
Then does a 1990's wipe to the next screen which is a poorly recorded scene of a man beside a charger.
It looks like someone has recorded a video on their iphone, done no editing, and expects that with 10 seconds designing a logo in MS Paint that they can make a youtube channel.


Watch Bjorn for an example of how to produce top content.
Average content for instance is like ELM/EVM in the UK. Same as Transport Evolved in the US, or TFL Car/TFL truck are doing a series on teslas now, putting their own money at risk and buyinga 3 and and X. Even the Irish can do it too, Jan Bart Spang has a channel with some interesting videos.


People want to watch interesting well produced content where there is no wind noise or silly logos or star wipes.


(Apologies if this is your channel, by the way, but if it is, honest feedback from an avid follower of motoring and ev enthusiast youtubers like myself should be welcomed)

People are watching you Saber Man, blunt critic here but take it on the chin and look at the positives. If you like making the content then it doesn't matter what people think of it, some will like it and some will not. Don't watch Bjorn and make that content, he's already doing that. YouTube is full of carbon copies, just look at all the make up channels or vlogs and you'll see they are all the same. If you want to stand out, do something to be just you even if that's a star wipe.

Go after your audience and not Bjorns

Bodhan

Kramer wrote: »

Which is why I started this thread - honest feedback & opinions for Bob.
He'll either shirk it off or learn from it .

Leaning hat on, reading everything. So far mostly positive stuff as people want to channel to be bigger and better which is the same as my goals for the channel, bloody hard to do it alone though, I'd love a camera operator or editor to help, hard to find someone who doesn't want a fortune

Lumen

Bodhan wrote: »

YouTube is full of carbon copies, just look at all the make up channels or vlogs and you'll see they are all the same

I would pay real Patreon money to watch you doing a make up video.

Bodhan

Old diesel wrote: »

I can only speak for myself - but I see motoring journalists gaps in EV knowledge as a sign of lazy journalism or disinterest.

Like its THEIR area of expertise - you should be exploring EV stuff as part of doing your job properly.

If I as just a normal guy can figure stuff about EVs by reading up on it. Then surely be to God - the motoring journalists who are paid can do similar.

Or is it disinterest.

And they've the car in front of them to play with - and because it's their JOB - they can make the time to play with the car. Do that Cork to Dublin run - or that Dublin to Westport run.

Report objectively on their findings.

Oh well

Most Motoring Jounalists aren't full time, most aren't even working at it. There are over 50 people in Ireland who get Press Test cars and I would guess that less than 7 of them get paid for the content they write and less than that do it for a full-time living.
No outlets pay for motoring, most see it as a perk in the job for a few free cars and the odd trip overseas.
I am one of the lucky ones who both likes the job and I get some money for it.
I suppose my point is, if most "journalists" do it for a free drive in a car then why would they bother leaning anything new? I know a couple of journalists who won't take or test EV's because they drive too much for their other job and it would be a pain to charge it.
The industry needs a clean up but the car companies are happy to hand out cars.

Bodhan

pdpmur wrote: »

My feedback in a nutshell to Mr Flavin:
Make up your mind whether you want to be taken seriously as a credible motoring journalist or as just another youtoob influencer where the only thing that matters is that the ends (more views) justifies the means.

I want to produce content that people want to watch, that is the only way to get paid. When I'm filming I don't get paid for that day, I only get paid when people watch it.
Making "serious" content isn't always a way to get views (paid) but trying to educate while keeping it a bit light will get views (paid).
Some videos are more serious than others but there's nothing beats a good laugh every now and then

Bodhan

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Don't mind Bjorn and his bannana boxes, listen to Nobbys exhaust sounds, could teach a few of the big guns a lesson.
If you listen very carefully you can hear Greta's tears...

Marek Drives is a Polish channel that reviews in English as well, his exhaust sounds are deadly. I'm hoping to make a video with him this year in Poland if we ever get to fly again

Bodhan

Laura Rapping Warfare wrote: »

Salomondrin is a heavy hitter in the car youtube space. I think he is actually really good, and that video will do more for uptake of electric cars than any 20 minute Bjorn video with 100 efficienty excel spreadsheets. Also - over the air updates to trackmode v2 will allow full RWD.....Awesome.

Salomondrin sells a lifestyle, and aspiration. He has serious cars, his Senna went on fire, he has a 918 and a Veyron...he is a madman. When he come out and says EV;s are good people will listen.

I love Bjorn, I like Bob and Salomondrin and Doug, and Hoovey and all the others. We need to listen and not just give out. When Bob says something that is anti EV we need to pay attention as thats what people think (rightly or wrongly) and sometimes its true.....there is an old saying to get people on your side you need to meet them where thay are, not where you want them to be. The nerdy eye-rolling and impatience with the less technically capable and inclined does nothing but make people think EV drivers are a bag of tools that like the smell of their own farts.

I like most of those channels (Doug can be a bit shouty) and you are right, I drive a few hundred cars a year which translates into a lot of experience for ride, handling, torque, tyres, engines, EV's and so on. When I give an opinion it comes from that knowledge but it isn't always the same as other opinions.

Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one

Bodhan

timsey tiger wrote: »

I'd add, that from a professional journalist, I don't want a guy discovering a car for the first time type report.

I want an experienced knowledgeable reporting on what the car is like, not oh look I made a noob mistake.

I don't expect a journalist to know everything themself, but I do expect them to seek out somebody knowledgeable and interview them, whilst understanding the interviewees motives and explaining why what they say might be biased.

You should watch Carwow, Matt knows everything about the car before he tells the staff of eight to roll the camera on that specially closed road where they film.

Bodhan

liamog wrote: »

The Maddie goes electric series was a great one. It did a much better job of dealing with the complexities by making a series out of it. It's much better than randomly sticking it in the middle of a review of the Ioniq.

I've only ever fuelled a car once, imagine if I did a review of the new Golf and spent 5 minutes faffing about at a petrol pump.

Fully Charged has a budget to make a series, I work alone without a budget or safety net.

You can't fail to fuel at a petrol station, you will get fuel from the pump, it might be the wrong fuel but fuel you will get. You can fail to fuel at a charge station even when you've done everything right and it appears to be changing there are times when it still doesn't work.
I could easily make a ten minute video on how to properly full an ICE car, the dos and don't just the same as I could make a series out of charging an electric car.

Bodhan

liamog wrote: »

Dare I say, as a regular poster on an EV board, you are not the intended target audience. One of the reasons I'm going to miss Johnny on Fully Charged is that he's much better at doing the car journalism.

I was watching Bob's review of the 330d, he's gone again into the daft place of people will buy a diesel because they only want to charge a car once a month. As a surbunite I do wonder about the attitude of some people in our rural towns. I get the arguments re towing ability, but surely if you have a driveway, the convenience of never having to go to a petrol station outways the inconvenience of parking up and plugging in twice a week.

There are so many reasons why EV's don't suit the vast majority of rural people I could write an essay on it. The main points are price, availability, home charger space, new tech being scary, misinformation, everyone trying to sell them stuff (chargers, solar, batteries), it's a lot to take in. People want what they understand diesel=fuel economy and towing at a price. EV's = home chargers, street chargers, cards, plugs, range, out of service, maps, apps, getting stuck ect.

Get my point?

Jonny is a good guy, he's been on the channel with me and I've met him a few times on trips. He's a good journalist and that's why he isn't in fully changed anymore. I suspect they sold out to advertisters and that's why everything that's featured by Bobby is great and wonderful.
Just spitballing here like, I've no evidence or anything

Bodhan

Agent_47 wrote: »

That's why I won't subscribe to his channel, I've watched the Sunday Service, more like the beggars bowl, every few minutes he is looking for paypal cash to "support the channel".

He rubbishes most cars, is very antagonistic with a smart mouth to boot. I once commented a few years ago that he should upgrade his audio to avoid wind noise on his videos, he commented that he would if I would buy him a proper mic. Fast forward to last year and he was moaning the audio was bad as the reason he could not release certain videos, a real tight arse looking for a free car every week to drive.

Don't bother watching or listening to the Sunday Service anymore, his day along with the ICE are done.

Almost all of this is untrue and just a personal attack but thanks for the comment I'm sure the channel won't miss you.

Bodhan

sk8board wrote: »

Agreed - I think Robert Llewellyn panders to an EV cult following rather than the mainstream audience he now has.
I stopped watching after the annoying Llewellyn rant videos were followed by poor coverage of launches where obvious questions were screaming to be asked but didn’t get a mention.

The maddie series was interesting (I’m the audiences for this), although 2 things:
1. You’d know she was a kids tv presenter - it was very over the top ‘pretend ignorance’ of solution-and-problem.
2. I actually shouted at my screen when she couldn’t get the kona to charge on a trip, but completely edited out what actually happened or what the issue was and suddenly they’re all charged up elsewhere. That’s the stuff we want to know!

All in all FCL is too EV cultish for me.

I also follow Bob Flavin - to be fair it’s a very Irish approach and re EVs I think his view is simply that you’d be mad to spend so much money on an EV at the moment/near term.
Bear in mind that the EV crowd are all experts and no sign of knowledge deficiency goes unpunished.
Again, in an Irish context, 2.8% of new sales being EVs would suggest he knows his audience.

I also find the Sunday service far too long and impossible to skip through, there’s no logic to it so it meanders hopelessly all over the place and wildly off topic into politics and all sorts

Good points well made there. The reviews and the Sunday Service are completely different content, I only started the Sunday Service to keep in touch with the subscribers but it's morphed into something that now get's quoted and mentioned in a serious way. It attracts it's own audience and many commenters on Sunday stay away for all other reviews. I never thought it would get this big a crowd or I would have made a separate channel for it.
It's very live and if you aren't into me talking about whatever questions are there then you probably won't like it.

Bodhan

Black_Knight wrote: »

Yeah, his begging is a bit much. Sunday service feels like a cash grab rather than being passionate about cars. The click bait titles too.

What he covers in reviews is a bit abstract too. Certainly if you want to know about shopping bag hooks in cars he's got ya sorted.

Do you watch YouTube? Do you know that most YouTubers don't make any money while they are building an audience and that most of them only make a couple of Euro from the hundreds of hours of work?
It's not begging when you work for money. Everyone has to feed themselves and the kids, pay bills and have a life while working. People CHOOSE to support the channel but anyone can watch the videos for free 24 hours a day. There are no clickbait titles just topics to be discussed or headlines like any outlet in the world.
Example of Clickbait "This car has a secret you won't believe" 20 mins later your still waiting for the secret. "Irish people use this cream and you won't believe what for" that sort of stuff annoys me to but NONE of my videos have that kind of title.

Shopping bag hooks are vital, if they are missing it's a crap car straight off because what else will be missing if they have failed to put a tiny hook in the boot?

Bodhan

Laura Rapping Warfare wrote: »

I will start by saying I like him, I like his presentation style and turn of phrase. What I think a lot of people are picking up on is his lack of consistency. He will praise one car for something, and then hammer another for having the same characteristic. When you watch his vids over time you cant help but not trust his opinion because it so changeable.

Thank you very much! I do agree as the channel gets bigger and older that some would need to watch a few videos to get the vibe and feel for the experience. It's a bit like listening to just one Joe Rogan podcast, it won't make sense until you've gotten an understanding for the whole experience

slave1

Longer YT vids can be annoying, I don't need to see Bjorn eating or pulling local plants and putting them into his frunk, but I suppose we need a bit of wandering from time to time else gets too boring

Bodhan

ELM327 wrote: »

I mean, it will never happen that Tesla will be >50% of a mature market.
I think they are more affected by fluctuating delivery volumes as production ramps.


The german OEMs have the advantage of cash and scale, with the hampering of Tesla#s first mover advantage, less debt, and cult following.


It will be interesting to see what happens. Objectively cars like ETron and EQC are more premium and more like a normal car. Cars like the X have better range and better charging support (SuC network). The OEMs could quite easily overcome both of those.

Spot on, Tesla has pulled a lead out because it started with nothing and so didn't have to worry about warrenties, dealers, supports, deliveries or anything for the customers because there's no expectations.
Volkswagen or any big car company has to get all these measures in place before a car can go on sale, once they start the deliveries and get feedback the systems will come online to pull the Tesla headstart back in. This isn't a sprint this is a marathon and we are only in the first couple of kilometres

unkel

Bodhan wrote: »

Still laughing about it now, that video still gets views and comments. To be fair most people got the joke but some people who claim to know everything didn't see the funny side. Even other motoring journalists said that I was wrong, some people are easily upset though

I thought it was hilarious, must watch it again

That people thought you were just another thick is a sign of your pretty decent acting skills. And nuff said about those people!

Bodhan

I should make another one where I act like I don't know how to put diesel in a petrol car and see the outrage that causes!

frozenfrozen

Bodhan wrote: »

I should make another one where I act like I don't know how to put diesel in a petrol car and see the outrage that causes!

"I usually pour a pint of the black spout into the superb, but today viewers, I'm just feeling GREEN"

Tom Dunne

Bob, great to see you here. While I haven't tuned in to Sunday service, I do enjoy the Irish perspective on EVs.

liamog

frozenfrozen wrote: »

"I usually pour a pint of the black spout into the superb, but today viewers, I'm just feeling GREEN"

It's green so it's better for the environment right?

frozenfrozen

liamog wrote: »

It's green so it's better for the environment right?

you are right maybe we will go with a half and half shandy. I like polar bears but I can't be expected to single handedly save them all

DrPhilG

Bodhan wrote: »

I love the judgement call from one video when there's over 700 videos on my channel.
The video you are talking about was to show how confusing it would be if you aren't an EV person. If I took a live-long ICE driver and gave him/her the keys of an EV and left them at it with a charging station what do you think would happen?

I understand (now anyway) the point you were making, I just think it was counter productive.

Yes it should be straightforward and it isn't. But your video didn't come across as what would happen for a "non-EV person, it looked like what would happen to a complete thicko and therefore made it look even more complicated than it is.

Fair play though for coming on here and addressing both fans and critics, appreciate the response.

Lumen

I think Bob's a bit harsh on Fully Charged. Its editorial position is to be incredibly enthusiastic about all kinds of electrification, and whilst normally that could be construed as standard motor industry shilling, it does seem plausibly rooted in evangelicalism rather than cynicism. I can't imagine Robert needs the money that badly.

EVs aside, it must be incredibly difficult attempting any kind of objective journalism in motoring, even in a larger car market like the UK. It's easy for Clarkson to slag off cars when he doesn't rely on manufacturers to provide cars to review. Chris Harris (long before Top Gear) got blacklisted by Ferrari for calling them out on providing non-standard press cars, and Lamborghini for saying something like Lambo was the car choice for rich people that couldn't drive. The whole model is stacked against independence, the likes of Autocar is dripping with pro-JLR bias.

eagerv

Fair play Bob for coming on here and being so open.
I don't always agree with your opinions but try and see most of your vids..


I thought you were very harsh on the new Civic when you first tested it about 3 years ago, I think it was a lousy wet cold damp Irish day. On a later test you sang it's praises. We have a 1.5 S-GT and I think in its price range (Could be bought for 28K then) it's hard to beat for its' drivability and standard equipment.


Anyway, best wishes for your channel.

Edit. Sorry for mentioning non EV's on this forum, forgot where I was..

kris_2021

Bob - what is your thought regarding ID3 first (pricing aside)?
any idea when you will get press car for review?

Black_Knight

Bodhan wrote: »

Do you watch YouTube? Do you know that most YouTubers don't make any money while they are building an audience and that most of them only make a couple of Euro from the hundreds of hours of work?
It's not begging when you work for money. Everyone has to feed themselves and the kids, pay bills and have a life while working. People CHOOSE to support the channel but anyone can watch the videos for free 24 hours a day. There are no clickbait titles just topics to be discussed or headlines like any outlet in the world.
Example of Clickbait "This car has a secret you won't believe" 20 mins later your still waiting for the secret. "Irish people use this cream and you won't believe what for" that sort of stuff annoys me to but NONE of my videos have that kind of title.

Shopping bag hooks are vital, if they are missing it's a crap car straight off because what else will be missing if they have failed to put a tiny hook in the boot?

I think this was around the time you had a SS of "Is this the end for some car companies". I've sometimes clicked in with interest regarding a title, but as the format is basically a Q&A, the Qs (and thus the chat) don't necessarily reflect the title.

As for asking for support, I guess a mans gotta make a living. Just thought sometimes the patron or paypal shout outs were pretty frequent. Maybe it's just me.

The "shopping bag hooks" is actually a pretty handy niche of review. As you mention to sabreman, there are loads of the same type review videos out here, do something different. It was only a review Mark did of a model S that alerting me to the complete lack of internal storage in it.

Bodhan

Lumen wrote: »

I think Bob's a bit harsh on Fully Charged. Its editorial position is to be incredibly enthusiastic about all kinds of electrification, and whilst normally that could be construed as standard motor industry shilling, it does seem plausibly rooted in evangelicalism rather than cynicism. I can't imagine Robert needs the money that badly.

EVs aside, it must be incredibly difficult attempting any kind of objective journalism in motoring, even in a larger car market like the UK. It's easy for Clarkson to slag off cars when he doesn't rely on manufacturers to provide cars to review. Chris Harris (long before Top Gear) got blacklisted by Ferrari for calling them out on providing non-standard press cars, and Lamborghini for saying something like Lambo was the car choice for rich people that couldn't drive. The whole model is stacked against independence, the likes of Autocar is dripping with pro-JLR bias.

If you build your publication around being nice to car companies then there is no hope of long-term survival as the companies will expect you to be nice about all their models and that breeds the carrot and stick.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it really is more rare than you think. TopGear (TV) is always biased towards cars that are British and British made goods, that's normal for any outlet.
I get cars no matter what I say, the day I can't get access to a test car because of something I said in a video will result in me making a video exposing the car maker who doesn't like me, that's why Chris Harris did the same.
I'm lucky because I own my publication so I can't speak for those who work in a publication, I suppose they might have to turn down what they say to suit advertisers.

Bodhan

eagerv wrote: »

Fair play Bob for coming on here and being so open.
I don't always agree with your opinions but try and see most of your vids..


I thought you were very harsh on the new Civic when you first tested it about 3 years ago, I think it was a lousy wet cold damp Irish day. On a later test you sang it's praises. We have a 1.5 S-GT and I think in its price range (Could be bought for 28K then) it's hard to beat for its' drivability and standard equipment.


Anyway, best wishes for your channel.

Edit. Sorry for mentioning non EV's on this forum, forgot where I was..

I am open to any outlet, I don't always have the time to answer all the questions from everywhere so that's why the delay in answering here.

Honda make some great cars but for me they have never gotten all the greatness into one car and I still don't like the infotainment system. It's a good car that could have been great! Shame they got rid of things like the flip up back seats.

Thanks

Bodhan

kris_2021 wrote: »

Bob - what is your thought regarding ID3 first (pricing aside)?
any idea when you will get press car for review?

I think Volkswagen have some work to do and they have left themselves with a big hill to climb. They are trying to cut costs on one hand while turning out a brand new car running on batteries during a worldwide pandemic!

The car looks nice in the right colour, I hope they improve the plastics on the dash from the one we seen in Weston and they get the infrastructure right. Pricing is off but people will still buy it.

Late summer for the Press tests but I'd say Volkswagen will get customers in the car first, there's a press conference tomorrow morning that I might make a video from like the last one.

eagerv

Bodhan wrote: »

The car looks nice in the right colour, I hope they improve the plastics on the dash from the one we seen in Weston and they get the infrastructure right. Pricing is off but people will still buy it.

What are your views of the right colour?:)

sk8board

Great to see you here bob - motoring forums in general are full of self proclaimed experts, and EV forums are easily the worst of the current bunch.

I would think Bobs views on EVs are very much representative of the current Irish market conditions, and because of those market conditions (price, charging, range, quality etc), EVs still only represent 3% of NEW car sales (a record proportion) and god knows probably 1% of the national fleet.
It doesn’t mean the other 97% of new car buyers are clowns, it just means they value different things and can afford different things.

It’ll improve, but it’s going to take years and years.

Electricity is just a propulsion fuel, just like petrol or diesel. We need to move away from viewing an EV as some sort of completely different vehicle. It isn’t.

Have a good day folks.

Lumen

sk8board wrote: »

motoring forums in general are full of self proclaimed experts

boards.ie is just a bunch of anonymous randomers having the online equivalent of pub talk.

You can choose to take that as seriously as you want.

Black_Knight

sk8board wrote: »

Great to see you here bob - motoring forums in general are full of self proclaimed experts, and EV forums are easily the worst of the current bunch.

Lumen wrote: »

boards.ie is just a bunch of anonymous randomers having the online equivalent of pub talk.

You can choose to take that as seriously as you want.

Playing right into his hands. :rolleyes:

We're nice folk here, just have our guard up with all the neigh sayers dropping in stirring the pot. I think most here are happy enough to admit that electric isn't for everyone.

ELM327

Electric is not for everyone.
The cars that most people can (or want to)afford dont do the range, and the ones that do the range are too expensive

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

Electric is not for everyone.
The cars that most people can (or want to)afford dont do the range, and the ones that do the range are too expensive

And the choice is abysmal relative to the ICE market.

Bodhan

sk8board wrote: »

Great to see you here bob - motoring forums in general are full of self proclaimed experts, and EV forums are easily the worst of the current bunch.

I would think Bobs views on EVs are very much representative of the current Irish market conditions, and because of those market conditions (price, charging, range, quality etc), EVs still only represent 3% of NEW car sales (a record proportion) and god knows probably 1% of the national fleet.
It doesn’t mean the other 97% of new car buyers are clowns, it just means they value different things and can afford different things.

It’ll improve, but it’s going to take years and years.

Electricity is just a propulsion fuel, just like petrol or diesel. We need to move away from viewing an EV as some sort of completely different vehicle. It isn’t.

Have a good day folks.

Everyone is an expert at something and we can all learn something new. For some reason the people who tend to comment on EV videos always feel the person reviewing the car is automatically against electric. A lot of comments can be hostile on Twitter/YouTube/Facebook which can result in people being put off asking questions.
An EV needs to be treated and tested just like any other car, safe, useable, practical, comfortable and affordable.
The problem is, EV's aren't affordable for the masses yet. The promising one ID3 starts at 33,625 after grants (so 43,625 real price) when a Golf starts at 27,750 with no grants. 43,625 will get you into and Audi A4 and have a luxury family holiday! That price for a normal five-door hatchback is insane and the grants are distorting the market badly, yet the gold rush continues.

The more you criticise the critics the more car companies will walk all over the market to get a few more sales.

I'm not against EV's but I am against bad cars that are overpriced and have baffling systems for normal drivers.

Cheers for the comments Sk8board!

Bodhan

Black_Knight wrote: »

Playing right into his hands. :rolleyes:

We're nice folk here, just have our guard up with all the neigh sayers dropping in stirring the pot. I think most here are happy enough to admit that electric isn't for everyone.

Not playing into my hands, I didn't start this thread and I haven't posted a link to anything. I didn't stir any pots but when a thread is started about me I would suggest that the right of reply is a given?

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

And the choice is abysmal relative to the ICE market.

Absolutely.
When we get to the stage where you arent forced to choose by range, but instead by car type (like for example if you want a city car in fossil fuel you have a plethora to choose from, whereas there's only a couple in EV)

ELM327

Bodhan wrote: »

Everyone is an expert at something and we can all learn something new. For some reason the people who tend to comment on EV videos always feel the person reviewing the car is automatically against electric. A lot of comments can be hostile on Twitter/YouTube/Facebook which can result in people being put off asking questions.
An EV needs to be treated and tested just like any other car, safe, useable, practical, comfortable and affordable.
The problem is, EV's aren't affordable for the masses yet. The promising one ID3 starts at 33,625 after grants (so 43,625 real price) when a Golf starts at 27,750 with no grants. 43,625 will get you into and Audi A4 and have a luxury family holiday! That price for a normal five-door hatchback is insane and the grants are distorting the market badly, yet the gold rush continues.

The more you criticise the critics the more car companies will walk all over the market to get a few more sales.

I'm not against EV's but I am against bad cars that are overpriced and have baffling systems for normal drivers.

Cheers for the comments Sk8board!

Once the grants are removed we may see more competition.
If we need grants then they should be tax credits for the purchasers, not free cash for the OEMs

Black_Knight

Bodhan wrote: »

Not playing into my hands, I didn't start this thread and I haven't posted a link to anything. I didn't stir any pots but when a thread is started about me I would suggest that the right of reply is a given?

I was replying to Lumen

unkel

Bodhan wrote: »

EV's aren't affordable for the masses yet. The promising one ID3 starts at 33,625 after grants (so 43,625 real price) when a Golf starts at 27,750 with no grants.

The real price is the price after grants. It's the real price people pay. I don't support the €10k subsidy, but it is what it is. Also the ID3 currently is the premium first model with a big 58kWh battery and a relatively high spec. The base model next year is expected to cost about the same as a base model Golf

Let's pause there for a second. The purchase price is the same, but after that everything else is cheaper, from fuel to depreciation to tax and tolls and maintenance. The total cost of ownership of the base ID.3 is far cheaper than the total cost of ownership of the Golf. And has far higher performance and is a better drivers cars.

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

Once the grants are removed we may see more competition.
If we need grants then they should be tax credits for the purchasers, not free cash for the OEMs

Tax credits for purchasers are a terrible idea, they have the same affect as a grant, but concentrate the benefit with those who pay enough tax. Though in reality most people who are buying new cars probably pay enough tax anyway. We've all seen how Tesla reduced the entry cost for the Model 3 in line with the tax credit reductions.

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

Tax credits for purchasers are a terrible idea, they have the same affect as a grant, but concentrate the benefit with those who pay enough tax. Though in reality most people who are buying new cars probably pay enough tax anyway. We've all seen how Tesla reduced the entry cost for the Model 3 in line with the tax credit reductions.

They are better than grants to the OEMs though.
Anyone buying a new EV is likely paying enough tax.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

Once the grants are removed we may see more competition.
If we need grants then they should be tax credits for the purchasers, not free cash for the OEMs

liamog wrote: »

Tax credits for purchasers are a terrible idea, they have the same affect as a grant, but concentrate the benefit with those who pay enough tax. Though in reality most people who are buying new cars probably pay enough tax anyway. We've all seen how Tesla reduced the entry cost for the Model 3 in line with the tax credit reductions.

ELM327 wrote: »

They are better than grants to the OEMs though.
Anyone buying a new EV is likely paying enough tax.

Its a tough nut to crack. No easy solution to it as there is a consequence to every action.

- increase taxes on ICE.... not fair on those who are already struggling
- grants... OEM's lap it up
- tax credits to purchaser... not that different to the grant as OEM's will know you are claiming it back and will up the price anyway.
- leave it to the market... no incentive for OEM's to clean up.

No silver bullet here.

The only thing that is really driving change is the EU emissions targets. VW would be doing exactly zero only for that and while its not perfect it is something.

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

They are better than grants to the OEMs though.
Anyone buying a new EV is likely paying enough tax.

Nope, has the same affect, if VW know you are getting a €5,000 tax credit, they'll just up the price by €5,000. The only way it would work is if we all keep it secret from the auto manufacturers