Bob Flavin (motoring journalist) & his views on EVs

eagerv

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Its gas (literally a gas!!) that our road tax system went emissions based 10+ years ago, yet cars with zero emissions still have to pay €120 a year!!

That needs fixing right away, followed by your idea of an annual increase in VRT on new & imported ICE cars.

And while we're there, once any Irish registered ICE is a certain age (10 years for diesel, 12-15 for petrol), slap on a change of ownership duty of €500 - €1,000 and/or an increased rate of annual road tax for every year older the car becomes... so every year beyond a certain age, the tax goes up by €50 per year.

Might seem a little draconian, but suddenly a lot (a lot) more people would be interested in EV ownership.

don't like it? buy an EV then...

Agree 100% especially seeing we are a two EV car family as of about 30 mins ago..:)

AndyBoBandy

ELM327 wrote: »

To be fair, they are not zero emissions.

The emissions emitted from an EV being driven are already taxed though via a carbon tax on our electrictity, so we've already paid our ‘Road’ tax... or if we pay to charge in the wild, we pay a premium rate for the electricity we use which would more than cover the carbon taxes.


Also, in an EV, we pay the carbon tax for every km we charge/drive, in an ICE, you don't...
In my 3 series, I pay €710 per year to tax it, so whether I drive 5,000 km, or 75,000 km, I still pay the same amount of emissions based tax.

In an EV, you are taxed on your fuel (something I and many many others have called for to happen on Petrol/Diesel, so the heavy users pay their fair share*)

*but this is a conversation for a whole other forum......

sk8board

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Its gas (literally a gas!!) that our road tax system went emissions based 10+ years ago, yet cars with zero emissions still have to pay €120 a year!!

That needs fixing right away, followed by your idea of an annual increase in VRT on new & imported ICE cars.

And while we're there, once any Irish registered ICE is a certain age (10 years for diesel, 12-15 for petrol), slap on a change of ownership duty of €500 - €1,000 and/or an increased rate of annual road tax for every year older the car becomes... so every year beyond a certain age, the tax goes up by €50 per year.

Might seem a little draconian, but suddenly a lot (a lot) more people would be interested in EV ownership.

don't like it? buy an EV then...

We’ve had this for 12 years. Everything pre ‘08 pays the old draconian tax rates and it made zero difference, bar stitching up poorer folks, or people who only buy older cars. Even our insurers stitch up owners of cars over 10 years old.

80-100k new cars are sold each years - it’s only 0.3% of the national fleet of 2.4m (0.3%!).

Penalising the owners of the other 99.7% when they try to sell their car ignores the carbon footprint of the manufacturing of a car, ev or not.

frozenfrozen

Everyone should be buying a brand new EV or buying my old EV with degraded batteries and if you're such a plebeian that you can't afford that then maybe take the bus. I don't see why anyone would buy a disgusting diesel car for 1k when you could have a lovely new zero emissions EV if you just keep rolling over your PCP

I think we should retroactively charge people for all the mileage on their cars that way we can get rid of all of the dirty ICE cars as soon as possible. We can have more grants to cover it for the poors and the people who who still use oil central heating can pay for it.

Promise I don't have a chip on my shoulder or any jealousy its just laughable to think increasing tax on old cars is the answer to EV adoption.

Subsidise EVs until they are good enough to be chosen over ICE, wait the 10 years for it to trickle through to a decent % of the fleet.

Meanwhile be reducing the need for people to be doing massive mileage. How many rural people are driving to dublin for hospitals, work, airports.

How many people doing long commutes are suddenly able to work from home with covid. Reward companies and people who don't have people drive in when they don't need to.

Why is it so much slower and so much more hassle to try use public transport, that it makes cars such a necessity at all.

EV are the future but fcuk off trying to get people with old cars to pay for it

liamog

frozenfrozen wrote: »

Promise I don't have a chip on my shoulder or any jealousy its just laughable to think increasing tax on old cars is the answer to EV adoption.

I agree with you, that's why I'd apply the progessive VRT on New and Imports, as some point we need to start taxing ICE cars off the road, but it's way to early for that. Probably needs to be implemented at the same time as we ban sales of new ones, even then it should be on gradually increasing schedule. I somewhat like the idea of a VRT Stamp Duty which will only be paid on ICE vehicles after 2030. Doesn't penalise the current owner, but drives them to a cleaner choice.

saabsaab

sk8board wrote: »

We’ve had this for 12 years. Everything pre ‘08 pays the old draconian tax rates and it made zero difference, bar stitching up poorer folks, or people who only buy older cars. Even our insurers stitch up owners of cars over 10 years old.

80-100k new cars are sold each years - it’s only 0.3% of the national fleet of 2.4m (0.3%!).

Penalising the owners of the other 99.7% when they try to sell their car ignores the carbon footprint of the manufacturing of a car, ev or not.

I've said it before and i'll say it again car tax as it is should be abolished and the difference put onto fuels. As for the argument that we already have a high excise on fuel I say so what. Fuel at the pumps has fallen and would make a transition to alternatives easier.

kanuseeme

Not going to happen, if the government wants more income, it will be added to fuel as well as increased car tax, EV car tax is not going to stay at 120 euro, eventually it will be what ever the shortfall is from tax on petrol and diesel cars plus what they will loose on fuel duties and VAT at the pumps.
At which point, the only fair way I see is, a declaration of annual mileage and pay for it, or get caught at the NCT and pay more.

kanuseeme

kanuseeme wrote: »

Not going to happen, if the government wants more income, it will be added to fuel as well as increased car tax, EV car tax is not going to stay at 120 euro, eventually it will be what ever the shortfall is from tax on petrol and diesel cars plus what they will loose on fuel duties and VAT at the pumps.
At which point, the only fair way I see is, a declaration of annual mileage and pay for it, or get caught at the NCT and pay more.

With almost all new cars having some form of "smart" technology installed, tracking them will be easy so therefore taxing based on road use would also be easy to implement at some point in the future.
For cars that don't a simply fitted black box will sort that issue, will be very easy to stop vehicles that don't have them.

saabsaab

Deleted User wrote: »

With almost all new cars having some form of "smart" technology installed, tracking them will be easy so therefore taxing based on road use would also be easy to implement at some point in the future.
For cars that don't a simply fitted black box will sort that issue, will be very easy to stop vehicles that don't have them.

Not a bad idea but there will be those that won't retro fit the 'box' just like they don't pay the car tax. Easier to just put it onto the existing system if you drive you have to use fuel and that includes electricity.

Lumen

kanuseeme wrote: »

Not going to happen, if the government wants more income, it will be added to fuel as well as increased car tax, EV car tax is not going to stay at 120 euro, eventually it will be what ever the shortfall is from tax on petrol and diesel cars plus what they will loose on fuel duties and VAT at the pumps.
At which point, the only fair way I see is, a declaration of annual mileage and pay for it, or get caught at the NCT and pay more.

The govt gets about €1000/car/year from duty and carbon taxes on ICE fuel.

If the entire fleet was electric and the carbon taxes stayed the same, that would drop to around €150/car/year.

So the shortfall is around €850/car/year.

OTOH, the fuel savings will be spent on other things in the economy which attract VAT, so the net effect is probably a bit less.

There's no particular reason the shortfall needs to be made up from car transport.

timsey tiger

[Deleted User] wrote: »

With almost all new cars having some form of "smart" technology installed, tracking them will be easy so therefore taxing based on road use would also be easy to implement at some point in the future.
For cars that don't a simply fitted black box will sort that issue, will be very easy to stop vehicles that don't have them.

Tracking lol, we can't even get tracking in place to prevent a global pandemic, no way this will ever happen.

listermint

Lumen wrote: »

The govt gets about €1000/car/year from duty and carbon taxes on ICE fuel.

If the entire fleet was electric and the carbon taxes stayed the same, that would drop to around €150/car/year.

So the shortfall is around €850/car/year.

OTOH, the fuel savings will be spent on other things in the economy which attract VAT, so the net effect is probably a bit less.

There's no particular reason the shortfall needs to be made up from car transport.

They could reduce the fines they are paying out on carbon targets. So perhaps that equalises out some of the loses.

liamog

timsey tiger wrote: »

Tracking lol, we can't even get tracking in place to prevent a global pandemic, no way this will ever happen.

You'll find when government income is involved that suddenly the whole project goes a lot smoother.

We're years away from needing to replace fuel duty, we're currently discussing incentives to switch, trying to solve for both at once is nigh on impossible.

timsey tiger

liamog wrote: »

You'll find when government income is involved that suddenly the whole project goes a lot smoother.

Sorry if this is news to you, the corona virus thing involves government income, as Donald would say bigly.

timsey tiger

Lumen wrote: »

The govt gets about €1000/car/year from duty and carbon taxes on ICE fuel.

If the entire fleet was electric and the carbon taxes stayed the same, that would drop to around €150/car/year.

So the shortfall is around €850/car/year.

OTOH, the fuel savings will be spent on other things in the economy which attract VAT, so the net effect is probably a bit less.

There's no particular reason the shortfall needs to be made up from car transport.

Net out the gains from reductions in respiratory diseases.

Lumen

listermint wrote: »

They could reduce the fines they are paying out on carbon targets. So perhaps that equalises out some of the loses.

Hmmm. By my calculations Irish dairy herds emit about the same amount of CO2 as all the cars on the roads of Ireland.

liamog

timsey tiger wrote: »

Sorry if this is news to you, the corona virus thing involves government income, as Donald would say bigly.

How much income do you think the government will make from publishing the covid tracking app?

frozenfrozen

just like car manufacturers are able to share co2 limits (example alfa and tesla) the EU should be sharing out co2 for how much beef we export to other countries

liamog

Lumen wrote: »

Hmmm. By my calculations Irish dairy herds emit about the same amount of CO2 as all the cars on the roads of Ireland.

We don't have a solution for cow farts yet, we do have a solution for CO2 based energy usage in transportation. There will be incentives for farmers too when the time comes. If a solution only solves part of a problem, it's better to apply the part you can control instead of burying your head in the sand and pretending the whole problem will go away.

Lumen

liamog wrote: »

We don't have a solution for cow farts yet, we do have a solution for CO2 based energy usage in transportation. There will be incentives for farmers too when the time comes. If a solution only solves part of a problem, it's better to apply the part you can control instead of burying your head in the sand and pretending the whole problem will go away.

I agree with the second part, but we do have a solution to cow farts: veganism and breast feeding.

If you think that's a hard sell try getting the Motors forum to switch to driving Leafs.

liamog

Lumen wrote: »

I agree with the second part, but we do have a solution to cow farts: veganism and breast feeding.

I'm not breast feeding any vegans! That's a hard limit

Bodhan

unkel wrote: »

The real price is the price after grants. It's the real price people pay. I don't support the €10k subsidy, but it is what it is. Also the ID3 currently is the premium first model with a big 58kWh battery and a relatively high spec. The base model next year is expected to cost about the same as a base model Golf

Let's pause there for a second. The purchase price is the same, but after that everything else is cheaper, from fuel to depreciation to tax and tolls and maintenance. The total cost of ownership of the base ID.3 is far cheaper than the total cost of ownership of the Golf. And has far higher performance and is a better drivers cars.

Do the total cost of ownership over a 5 year PCP and tell me that a low millage user will actually save money. Take someone doing 20 thousand km a year in Hyundai Kona EV and standard Petrol model. Forget tolls and depreciation think GMFV if you need to. You'll find the numbers are much tighter than you think.

Bodhan

Lumen wrote: »

Basic economics: if you tax something, people will use less of it.

So if you want people to use less ICE and more EV, you hold taxes high on ICE and cut them on EV, which is exactly what the govt has done, not just here, all over the world.

At some point there will be enough EV market share to gain critical mass for charging infrastructure (not least at motorway service stations who will see their business model evaporating otherwise) and at that point EVs will be at TCO parity (if they're not already).

I was explaining charge point economics to an estate agent a few months ago and how it was a potential bonanza for pubs and restaurants located on major routes, with people "forced" to wait for their cars to charge. His eyes lit up.

It will come.

Unfortunatly we already tax the ****e out of ICE cars (and EV's) if the Irish Govenment doesn't understand something they tax it, when they understand how it works the tax it more.

unkel

Bodhan wrote: »

Unfortunatly we already tax the ****e out of ICE cars

Not really. Motor tax is far lower now than for the majority of cars compared to what it was before the changeover in 2008.

graememk

unkel wrote: »

Not really. Motor tax is far lower now than for the majority of cars compared to what it was before the changeover in 2008.

yep. i think my 02 1.9 tdi seat leon was nearly 700 before I changed, tax for 2-3 years was as nearly the same amount as the car was worth!

ELM327

Bodhan wrote: »

Do the total cost of ownership over a 5 year PCP and tell me that a low millage user will actually save money. Take someone doing 20 thousand km a year in Hyundai Kona EV and standard Petrol model. Forget tolls and depreciation think GMFV if you need to. You'll find the numbers are much tighter than you think.

That user won't save money. Simples.

liamog

Meanwhile someone instead of buying an automatic diesel Golf 8 Life 115HP for €33,495 purchases an ID.3 1st and pays €34,425 and probably starts saving money within 12 months.

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

Meanwhile someone instead of buying an automatic diesel Golf 8 Life 115HP for €33,495 purchases an ID.3 1st and pays €34,425 and probably starts saving money within 12 months.

Absolutely. Even someone driving once a week to the shops and to mass on Sundays would save money vs the fossil equivalent with those prices.
At price parity, the EV will save money.
With a 20k premium (Kona EV vs ICE) they won't

unkel

Bodhan wrote: »

ake someone doing 20 thousand km a year in Hyundai Kona EV and standard Petrol model. Forget tolls and depreciation think GMFV if you need to. You'll find the numbers are much tighter than you think.

We have discussed it many times here before, €38k Kona EV is an extreme example of poor value for money in an EV. People bought it for various reasons, but almost never because the total cost of ownership was good compared to the EUR21k petrol model

In another case, my Hyundai Ioniq EV that I bought brand new, cost me less in total cost of ownership over 3 years than a banger. And that's me only doing average mileage.

sk8board

unkel wrote: »

We have discussed it many times here before, €38k Kona EV is an extreme example of poor value for money in an EV. People bought it for various reasons, but almost never because the total cost of ownership was good compared to the EUR21k petrol model

In another case, my Hyundai Ioniq EV that I bought brand new, cost me less in total cost of ownership over 3 years than a banger. And that's me only doing average mileage.

The most interesting stat I've seen recently on EV's is that the average mileage of a EV driver is HIGHER than a combustion car, when initially the thinking was that it would be the opposite.
Clearly that high entry price means that it's appealing most to those trying to rationalise the lifetime running costs.

I do 10,000km annually, it costs me about €800 of diesel versus about €200 in electricity perhaps, and €200 tax versus €120. There is no rational EV option for anyone doing less than 15,000 annually.

the ioniq was in a sweet spot in '17-18 when there were no affordable family car options bar the leaf. With EV tech evolving so quickly, the ioniq suddenly seems 'old', never mind the (I think) very poor quality interior - they'll still sell you a new one in 2020, but it's already a dead duck, barely 3 years on.