Stolen Tesla Model S (found post 168 )

JOHNNYBEGOOD 123

How does phone connect to the car to open. Is it Bluetooth.

What if you turn Bluetooth off at night

liamog

Mod Note: If you want to discuss the finer legal points of "reasonable force", take it over here https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=633

_dof_

The signal boosting attack makes the car think the key (keyfob or phone or whatever) is present beside the car to unlock the door and inside the car to allow it to drive. Once the thieves have driven away a short distance the car will no longer detect the key, so I don't see why the car can't just slow down to a stop when it detects no key inside the car.

A lot (maybe all) keyless entry cars will just beep at the driver to indicate there's no key detected, but they don't stop you driving the car as far as I know.

Lumen

_dof_ wrote: »

The signal boosting attack makes the car think the key (keyfob or phone or whatever) is present beside the car to unlock the door and inside the car to allow it to drive. Once the thieves have driven away a short distance the car will no longer detect the key, so I don't see why the car can't just slow down to a stop when it detects no key inside the car.

A lot (maybe all) keyless entry cars will just beep at the driver to indicate there's no key detected, but they don't stop you driving the car as far as I know.

I just did a test on my Kia. Got in the car with key in pocket. Dropped key out of window. Car would not start, flashed light saying key was out of car. Fetched key, started car, dropped key out of window, carried on driving.

So yes, the car will not stop just because the key is out of range.

But the car seems to know the difference between the key being inside or outside of the car.

Sabre Man

_dof_ wrote: »

The signal boosting attack makes the car think the key (keyfob or phone or whatever) is present beside the car to unlock the door and inside the car to allow it to drive. Once the thieves have driven away a short distance the car will no longer detect the key, so I don't see why the car can't just slow down to a stop when it detects no key inside the car.

A lot (maybe all) keyless entry cars will just beep at the driver to indicate there's no key detected, but they don't stop you driving the car as far as I know.

Good suggestion.

You can start your Tesla from the app if you don't have a key, which could be handy in some cases. Your suggestion would renders this feature useless unless you could control this from the app.

italodisco

As much of a nuisance as it is, a decent clamp is worth it.
I had a type s prelude many moons ago, lots of money put into it, hks turbo kit etc.

You could Rob one in under a minute, bend the door frame,, get in, casing off and then back barrel it.

I heard so many stories of civics and accords getting knocked so i bought a clamp from a company in UK, makes the dub city council ones look like paper. Put it on every night. Even on street outside friends homes if staying over.

Also a chain on steering wheel haha

TerraIncognita

Sorry to hear about your theft OP.

Does this issue only affect key fobs?

I don’t have a key fob for my Model 3 but I do use the Bluetooth paired with phone to enter and start the car. Is Bluetooth entry vulnerable to this type of attack?

sk8board

Always terrible to hear. We have keyless cars and use a €5 Bewleys tea caddy for the keys, which works like a charm as a faraday cage (and you get forty cups of tea into the deal!):

We leave it here on the microwave:

mloc123

irishevo8 wrote: »

it takes 30sec's to secure your 50k car , if i had a 50k car i would do everything to secure it , i would even stick a clamp on it at night LOL

Personally.. putting on and taking off a wheel clamp every day to me seems like much more hassle than having to maybe claim insurance on a stolen car.

I bought a car (50k+) 2 years ago... Initially I kept the keys in a small metal container etc.. but if you are gonna spend your life worrying about the what ifs, it is not worth it.

If somebody robs it, they rob it... I'll claim off my insurance and replace it.

NSAman

mloc123 wrote: »

Personally.. putting on and taking off a wheel clamp every day to me seems like much more hassle than having to maybe claim insurance on a stolen car.

I bought a car (50k+) 2 years ago... Initially I kept the keys in a small metal container etc.. but if you are gonna spend your life worrying about the what ifs, it is not worth it.

If somebody robs it, they rob it... I'll claim off my insurance and replace it.

So true, a car can be replaced. It is unfortunate and annoying when you save and take so much time and energy enjoying it. But it is a car.

However, i am amazed that stricter security measures are not implemented on modern cars. I don’t lock the cars here at all and they would be gone in ireland if i did not lock them (very nice cars), but the “threat” of owing a gun here..is the deterrent to the car being stolen.

tjhook

sk8board wrote: »

Always terrible to hear. We have keyless cars and use a €5 Bewleys tea caddy for the keys, which works like a charm as a faraday cage (and you get forty cups of tea into the deal!):

We leave it here on the microwave:

I've heard about using a tin, but then I saw "a random guy on the Internet" test it, and it didn't work for him. Maybe it depends on the frequency/amplitude used by the fob, or maybe some tins are better than others. Either way, I invested in one of those faraday boxes, and tested that it works.


I wish all kinds of evil on the scum who steal cars.

cadaliac

Please excuse my ignorance on this.
Is the thief using a listening device to "listen" for the keyfob?
How often is a keyfob broadcasting? It looks like every couple of seconds according to the video.

If the thief was listening to the keyfob then surely the Faraday cage/ box is the best solution ??

Another option should be available to stop the key broadcasting, upon request.

bk

BTW for those asking about other ways to protect your car, some home alarm systems support external sensors suitable for outside use. Point to point detectors and external motion detectors can be potentially used. If someone enters your drive way/garden at night, it triggers your home alarm system.

Might not work for everyone, can depend on how your driveway/garden is set up, but might be suitable for some people.

AndyBoBandy

bk wrote: »

BTW for those asking about other ways to protect your car, some home alarm systems support external sensors suitable for outside use. Point to point detectors and external motion detectors can be potentially used. If someone enters your drive way/garden at night, it triggers your home alarm system.

Might not work for everyone, can depend on how your driveway/garden is set up, but might be suitable for some people.

Good point. My entire house is fitted with Philips Hue Colour (smart) bulbs, so I could add one of their outdoor sensors, and could set it to turn on various combinations of house lights if it defected motion outside.

Deterrent more than anything - someone walks up your driveway and suddenly the porch, landing, hallway and kitchen lights all come on it might just be enough to spook them away.

copeyhagen

_dof_ wrote: »

The signal boosting attack makes the car think the key (keyfob or phone or whatever) is present beside the car to unlock the door and inside the car to allow it to drive. Once the thieves have driven away a short distance the car will no longer detect the key, so I don't see why the car can't just slow down to a stop when it detects no key inside the car.

A lot (maybe all) keyless entry cars will just beep at the driver to indicate there's no key detected, but they don't stop you driving the car as far as I know.

just a note around this, i have been in the car driving before when i got a pop up on screen saying "keyfob not detected, car will shut down soon"

so im not sure if they would have had the same result after a few mins. maybe their software on the laptop actually acts as a mobile key, im not sure.

or maybe they had a flatbed 2 mins up the road and loaded it on.

we dont have garden walls, so a bollard wouldnt work.
steering locks i thought could be opped in seconds, wasnt there a car thief on reddit that had a thread where he showed himself opening tonnes of them.
the idea of having one of the most technologically advanced cars on the market, that can be stolen in a matter of minutes is insane.

i think theres a bigger question t be asked of Tesla now. i did tweet Elon afterwards but he never replied

Peatys

sk8board wrote: »

Always terrible to hear. We have keyless cars and use a €5 Bewleys tea caddy for the keys, which works like a charm as a faraday cage (and you get forty cups of tea into the deal!):

We leave it here on the microwave:

No harm to put a sticker on that saying car keys.. wouldn't want the scummers in the house any longer than they have to be, nevermind them coming upstairs looking for keys

KCross

copeyhagen wrote: »

i think theres a bigger question t be asked of Tesla now. i did tweet Elon afterwards but he never replied

Hasnt he already replied to such tweets and as a consequence added PIN to drive?

Ultimately any car with keyless entry has this problem and the PIN to drive was added retrospectively to Tesla's via over the air software update to specifically stop it. I dont think other manufacturers have (or even can) retrospectively do anything.

Another alternative, I think, is not to use the key fobs and/or disable keyless entry.

I think some new key fobs now also stop emitting their signal once they have a set period of inactivity and only start pinging again once they sense motion (i.e. when you pickup your keys). That also stops the problem.

bk

Peatys wrote: »

No harm to put a sticker on that saying car keys.. wouldn't want the scummers in the house any longer than they have to be, nevermind them coming upstairs looking for keys

Do people who can afford a Tesla, really not have a home security system?!

some of them are very cheap these days.

zg3409

cadaliac wrote: »

Please excuse my ignorance on this.
Is the thief using a listening device to "listen" for the keyfob?
How often is a keyfob broadcasting? It looks like every couple of seconds according to the video.

If the thief was listening to the keyfob then surely the Faraday cage/ box is the best solution ??

Another option should be available to stop the key broadcasting, upon request.

The car constantly broadcasts a wake up signal from door handles etc. When key hears wake up signal it responds with a one time encrypted code. The tool the thief's use listen to the cars wake up signal and amplify it and broadcast it stronger from a different device typically held up to the door of the house. When the key hears this it responds, typically this is not boosted, but it could be and then doors will unlock and engine will start. They then drive away. Ford introduced a motion sensor in the newer keys so if they don't move for a minute or 2 they go to sleep. Another fix can be updating the car to only respond if the response time is very short, as the key being further away it will be slightly late at responding. Its the speed of radio waves so the timing needs to be very critical but it may prevent responses when keys are say 4 metres away, even if boosted.

News story
https://www.which.co.uk/news/2019/01/how-easy-is-your-car-to-steal/

List of cars tested
https://dwkujuq9vpuly.cloudfront.net/news/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Cars-tested-by-ADAC.pdf

Tesla S and x on list. Model 3 was probably not available to test.

This has been a known issue for a number of years. On some cars you can turn off the option in the cars menu (example the leaf) but on other cars (example Hyundai) you cannot. There was a Hyundai ioniq EV stolen recently in Ireland. The tin box can work, but best to test it standing next to the car. Some of the blocking pouches work better than others (again stand next to the car) . I keep my spare key in a pouch, but I should probably not keep my main key in the bedroom.

Sabre Man

tjhook wrote: »

I invested in one of those faraday boxes, and tested that it works.

How did you test it?

copeyhagen

KCross wrote: »

Hasnt he already replied to such tweets and as a consequence added PIN to drive?

Ultimately any car with keyless entry has this problem and the PIN to drive was added retrospectively to Tesla's via over the air software update to specifically stop it. I dont think other manufacturers have (or even can) retrospectively do anything.

Another alternative, I think, is not to use the key fobs and/or disable keyless entry.

I think some new key fobs now also stop emitting their signal once they have a set period of inactivity and only start pinging again once they sense motion (i.e. when you pickup your keys). That also stops the problem.

i dont want to give out too much info around others that are using the pin to drive, but that can also be disabled in minutes of entry.

galwaytt

copeyhagen wrote: »

i bought a twin pack of the rfid blocker wallets from amazon yesterday, think it was a tenner delivered.

pin to drive can possibly be disabled, the rfid with the pin to drive would hopefully be enough to deter them.

shes talking aout getting garden walls and everything now!

as said, at the end of the day, it was only a car, it was my dream car that took me ages to find, ages to wait for, family trip over to pick it up and these scrotes take it, but thats what insurance is for

So sorry for your trouble OP, but, and looking at the pic you posted: irrespective of the car tech, I wouldn't buy any car (like that) without a garage to put it in to, let alone walls. This would have been on my list long before the car tbh.

Assuming the battery packs are the expensive component here, don't they too have an i.d., which the computer system talks to for charging and analysis purposes - so they could be disabled remotely, no ??

Cuddlesworth

Lumen wrote: »

I dunno, there comes a point with security that it's so intrusive that it can ruin your enjoyment of the thing.

And our houses have these annoying easy access holes in them called windows.

SOPHIE THE DOG

Sabre Man wrote: »

How did you test it?

1. Sit in car

2. Put key in Faraday Box

2. Try to start car

3. If car starts, the Faraday box is not working

(At least that's how I tested the cheapo "Faraday Box" key holder I bought in Aldi (in my cheapo car) and I'm glad to say the Faraday Box does its job)

Cuddlesworth

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

And our houses have these annoying easy access holes in them called windows.

Should see how easy it is to remove the glass from PVC windows!

sk8board

tjhook wrote: »

I've heard about using a tin, but then I saw "a random guy on the Internet" test it, and it didn't work for him. Maybe it depends on the frequency/amplitude used by the fob, or maybe some tins are better than others. Either way, I invested in one of those faraday boxes, and tested that it

I had faraday cases too, but we moved to the tin so we can both just toss them in there easily all day (we both drive both cars, so it saves constantly asking and searching).
I tested it by holding it literally against the car door handle, even with the lid off etc etc, for sure it’s a metal case and no signal gets out!

digiman

Talking about alarms, do people think that a monitored alarm from phone watch or similar is worth it?

I've got a house alarm that will send me a notification when it goes on/off. Also have Nest security cameras at front and rear of house. These in general go off way more than I would wish so a lot of the time I don't pay too much attention to them unless the doorbell camera is triggered.

SDKev

You should look into the new AI cameras available on the market, they are reported to eliminate 98% of false alarms.

The cameras come with a built in speaker & LED

When you fit the camera you can draw rules to trigger the camera / app / siren.

Example.

Rule 1
Tripwire - draw a line across the front boundary of your house, if someone crosses the boundary, the camera can play a message "You're under surveillance"

Rule 2
Intrusion - draw a box around your car, if someone enters the box, it can trigger the siren / lights / app.

They can be set only to work at different times / days etc.

Loads of manufacturers have this functionality now but I've only used Dahua / Hik, loads of videos on YouTube showing how it works.

*They're called Active Deterrent Cameras

tjhook

Sabre Man wrote: »

How did you test it?

I put the fob into the box, approached the car holding the closed box with the fob in it, and tried to open the car door. It didn't open.

Then I opened the box, and was able to open the door.

Finally, I closed the box again, and attempted to start the car. It wouldn't start until I opened the box.

CabanSail

Those Teslas are so quiet it makes it easier for theives

Maybe some external speakers which play the sound of an unmuffled V8 with a lumpy cam. You would hear that start up.

Seriously it's nasty when these things happen.

I had my old Diesel Rover stolen. Some members of a Minority Community knocked at the door and asked twice if it were for sale. The answer was No. Then a Transit with a Trailer pulled up and loaded it. The neighbor thought I must have sold it but took the number. False plates.