So according to the Sindo,its an FF-FG-Green-Grand coalition then ?

woohoo!!!

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Where am I wrong historically SF's support has always being around the 10% mark in recent history

They just managed to double it largely of the basis of gap in the left - a poor labour party, split by the SD. And a yahoo brigade with the PBP.

But yet SF manage to spin it as 'winning the election' much like those moral victories Ireland used to get in the soccer.
Yet SF did not have enough numbers to form thier grand coalition of the left.
To paraphrase the ulster people, they need to catch themselves on.

Instead of blaming the voters, see what each party can do to attract them back. That would be a starting point. Voters are not there to serve political parties, rather the other way around. Step out of the bubble.

First Up

Why is a party called Ourselves Alone surprised that other people want to leave them alone?

Fann Linn

piplip87 wrote: »

I have just spent the past half hour or so on the liberal.ie comments sections on Facebook

One was about gangs of African kids and the other a Marylou for Taoiseach one. The same people commenting on both. Jaysus people really don't know what they are voting for.

I have decided that I want Marylou to be Taoiseach, I want SF in government, I especially want SF to implement their 2017 policy document on refugee resettlement. Where we would be world leaders in taking in refugees.

Imagine the fecking backtracking

Half an hour on Facebuke and the liberal!
Go take up a hobby.

Fann Linn

First Up wrote: »

Why is a party called Ourselves Alone surprised that other people want to leave them alone?

Someone was reading the Irish Times.

LeinsterDub

First Up wrote: »

Why is a party called Ourselves Alone surprised that other people want to leave them alone?

The phrase "Sinn Féin" is Irish for "Ourselves" or "We Ourselves",[8][9] although it is frequently mistranslated as "ourselves alone" (from "Sinn Féin Amháin", an early-20th-century slogan. See also Sinn Féin (slogan))

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinn_F%C3%A9in#Name

FrancieBrady

woohoo!!! wrote: »

Instead of blaming the voters, see what each party can do to attract them back. That would be a starting point. Voters are not there to serve political parties, rather the other way around. Step out of the bubble.

The Fine Gael Hypocrisy/Flip Flop:

'Why are SF not fit to govern here? - Look what they did in NI, it is no different from here.'

'Why do you insist SF are fit to govern in NI - Because NI is different'.

IngazZagni

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Fine Gael Hypocrisy/Flip Flop:

'Why are SF not fit to govern here? - Look what they did in NI, it is no different from here.'

'Why do you insist SF are fit to govern in NI - Because NI is different'.

It’s called the Good Friday agreement and has nothing to do with Sinn Fein per Se.

gormdubhgorm

piplip87 wrote: »

I have just spent the past half hour or so on the liberal.ie comments sections on Facebook

One was about gangs of African kids and the other a Marylou for Taoiseach one. The same people commenting on both. Jaysus people really don't know what they are voting for.

I have decided that I want Marylou to be Taoiseach, I want SF in government, I especially want SF to implement their 2017 policy document on refugee resettlement. Where we would be world leaders in taking in refugees.

Imagine the fecking backtracking

I was going to mention those with a hardcore republican nature are anti foreigners. It is in thier nature to want to keep others out. If you look at SF's history on racism it does not make pretty reading.

Angus O'Snodaigh (former Sinn Féin spokesperson on Justice and Equality) wrote this article in 2002

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:LMKMqSNhLEQJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/sinn-fein-policy-on-racism-1.1050135+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

Then in 2009 AOS said this to Alan Shatter and refused to apologise for it.

https://www.herald.ie/news/osnodaigh-stoops-even-lower-with-nazi-jibe-at-jewish-td-27898237.html

Gerry adams got in trouble with his Ballymurphy ****** tweet in 2016

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/02/gerry-adams-defends-n-word-tweet-django-unchained

It did seem that SF were learning by 2018 and at least try to appear to be an all inclusive party AOS had changed his tune

https://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/48900

But of course in 2020 there were the Holohan comments

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/paddy-holohan-suspended-from-sinn-fein-following-sexual-extortion-comments-976042.html

Which Mary Lou seemed more outrage by because of his comments on women not any of his comments on Leo!

In my view SF will always attract this type of support lowest common denominator stuff. That is thier core support. SF know this and other parties know this it is just the demographic that follow them.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/sinn-f%C3%A9in-s-rhetoric-is-dangerous-and-its-exclusion-from-power-is-justified-1.4164037?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fopinion%2Fsinn-f%25C3%25A9in-s-rhetoric-is-dangerous-and-its-exclusion-from-power-is-justified-1.4164037

In fact they get angry when SF try to move away from the anti-immigration stance.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2020/t-stands-for-traitor-to-the-irish-immigration-remains-a-silent-but-divisive-topic-in-the-towns-earmarked-for-asylum-seekers-38920116.html

IngazZagni

Fann Linn wrote: »

Half an hour on Facebuke and the liberal!
Go take up a hobby.

He has a point though. I think there is a small minority of far right racists hiding within the Sinn Fein support base. The irony is not lost on them though.

Eric Cartman

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Has that worked ever? Anywhere?

Where are your magic high paying jobs coming from?

You want a regressive tax system, you're describing America and America has a **** the poor attitude

Ill take f the poor over the current F the middle class / rich any day

LeinsterDub

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Ill take f the poor over the current F the middle class / rich any day

And the mask slips. You consider any tax increases as ****ing the middle class / rich and you don't care about others because you're alright Jack

FrancieBrady

IngazZagni wrote: »

It’s called the Good Friday agreement and has nothing to do with Sinn Fein per Se.

Say more.

IngazZagni

LeinsterDub wrote: »

And the mask slips. You consider any tax increases as ****ing the middle class / rich and you don't care about others because you're alright Jack

Ireland already has one of the most progressive tax systems in the developed world though were the rich pay far more and rightly so. There is a tipping point though and to increase tax even further will lead to assets and jobs moving overseas.

JohnnyFlash

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Says leader of party finding it difficult to cope with being the third choice of the Irish people.

How are FG, and the FG leadership, finding it difficult to cope? Haven’t they come out and said they are going into opposition? They aren’t planning a military dictatorship or anything, Francis.

Time for the party and the membership to rebuild and work out why the message of financial prudence, balanced budgets, the need for caution during this stage of the Brexit fiasco, and measured and sustainable investments in infrastructure and services didn’t resonate with the electorate.

It’s up to the parties who promised big things to go implement them. County hurling now lads.

LeinsterDub

IngazZagni wrote: »

Ireland already has one of the most progressive tax systems in the developed world though were the rich pay far more and rightly so. There is a tipping point though and to increase tax even further will lead to assets and jobs moving overseas.

I feel there is room for some of the wealthiest individuals and bigger companies to pay a bit more. But I agree with your overall point

James Brown

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

How are FG, and the FG leadership, finding it difficult to cope? Haven’t they come out and said they are going into opposition? They aren’t planning a military dictatorship or anything, Francis.

Time for the party and the membership to rebuild and work out why the message of financial prudence, balanced budgets, the need for caution during this stage of the Brexit fiasco, and measured and sustainable investments in infrastructure and services didn’t resonate with the electorate.

It’s up to the parties who promised big things to go implement them. County hurling now lads.

Because it ignored a large section of Irish people. Those who get up early of a morning and work to pay taxes for their quangos, over-runs and vanity projects.
All the while paying little but lip service to housing, homeless and health crises. Pretty simple really. In short arrogance and ignorance.

mattser

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

How are FG, and the FG leadership, finding it difficult to cope? Haven’t they come out and said they are going into opposition? They aren’t planning a military dictatorship or anything, Francis.

Time for the party and the membership to rebuild and work out why the message of financial prudence, balanced budgets, the need for caution during this stage of the Brexit fiasco, and measured and sustainable investments in infrastructure and services didn’t resonate with the electorate.

It’s up to the parties who promised big things to go implement them. County hurling now lads.

Exactly that, Johnny. The only ones who are finding it difficult are those that never took responsibility, and have no intention of doing so. Weasel words is their forte.

gormdubhgorm

IngazZagni wrote: »

He has a point though. I think there is a small minority of far right racists hiding within the Sinn Fein support base. The irony is not lost on them though.

I am just reading an interesting article here which basically sets out the case that SF fills the gap in Ireland that the Radical Right have not filled. Written in 2008 by Eoin O'Malley DCU.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/29652064_Why_is_there_no_Radical_Right_Party_in_Ireland

O'Malley mentions such things as SF being a tolerant party but with intolerant supporters. And says that Sinn Féin voters are more likely to be young, poorly educated men - the type of voter that might support a Radical Right party.

"Sinn Féin supporters are more likely to feel that there are already too many immigrants in Ireland. Sinn Féin supporters are not more likely to consider asylum seekers entitled to full state welfare benefits. This is surprising given the tone of Sinn Féin policy."

The author also mentions how SF were against the Citizenship referendum in 2004 (rules were changed to remove the automatic right of citizenship to anyone born on the island of Ireland)

https://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/2332

O'Malley concludes

"Ireland’s political and social structure makes it conducive to the presence of a reasonably successful RR party. Yet Ireland has none according to conventional classifications. It was shown that potential supporters of such a party tend to support Sinn Féin. Though displaying some features of RR parties – nationalism, populism and authoritarianism Sinn Féin, is avowedly leftist and pro-immigrant rights."

Second we can ask why Sinn Féin does not exploit this issue. Here one needs to look at the specific environment in which a party operates. Crucially nationalism in Ireland cannot sit easily with anti-immigrant bigotry, so it is less likely that a nationalist party in Ireland could be xenophobic.

--

So after all that it seems SF do attract disenchanted young Irish working class racists. But SF try thier best to at least appear pro-immigration. But this could alienate this support base.

FrancieBrady

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

How are FG, and the FG leadership, finding it difficult to cope? Haven’t they come out and said they are going into opposition? They aren’t planning a military dictatorship or anything, Francis.

Time for the party and the membership to rebuild and work out why the message of financial prudence, balanced budgets, the need for caution during this stage of the Brexit fiasco, and measured and sustainable investments in infrastructure and services didn’t resonate with the electorate.

It’s up to the parties who promised big things to go implement them. County hurling now lads.

Because everyone knows what is going to happen here.

Sleeveen gombeen politics no longer works lads and lassies, we're onto you.

Idbatterim

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Or lower everyones taxes, widen the tax net the whole way out and allow an increase in high paying jobs and the people that fill them to make up the shortfall.

That and cut the hell out of administrative soending in the HSE and the aul welfare could use a chop

absolutely wont happen here, the place is frozen by analysis and fear. At best , I see welfare not being increased , to fund all the areas that are black holes or reqiure increased funding. It was increased at insane rates for years and other areas starved, so if it now needs to be frozen to address other areas and issue, boo hoo!

Idbatterim

Originally Posted by LeinsterDub View Post
Has that worked ever? Anywhere?

Where are your magic high paying jobs coming from?

You want a regressive tax system, you're describing America and America has a **** the poor attitude

this makes me laugh here! "regressive"! "progressive"! its ****ing immoral thievening FIFTY percent of a person income over a pathetic working poor threshold, thats what you call progressive? Is progressive just once it benefits the majority? regardless of the morality? you laugh at the states here, we should look at ourselves, theft rates from low income workers, to fund a life of luxury apartments, free medical cards, free transport, few hundred euro a week cash...

Dont make me laugh! If you want to write a book on how not to do things, you'd start with this country and not the US :rolleyes:

JohnnyFlash

Bowie wrote: »

Because it ignored a large section of Irish people. Those who get up early of a morning and work to pay taxes for their quangos, over-runs and vanity projects.
All the while paying little but lip service to housing, homeless and health crises. Pretty simple really. In short arrogance and ignorance.

Fair enough. Let’s see the others do things differently. There’s a big tranche of social housing coming on stream so that’s a good start for a new government. And slaintecare is a plan for the health service. Sticky subjects like gay marriage and abortion are dealt with as well.

Time now for FG to feck off into opposition for a while. A strong opposition is a vital part of democracy.

Idbatterim

SF policies are criticised as not feasible! look at the **** show we currently have! Masses outside the tax net, no water charges, no LPT , spending based on huge but unstable corporation tax returns, addressing the housing crisis by rip off deals like in dundrum. Wanting to continually hike the already over the top state pension by twenty a five euro over the next five years. This bull****, which is just decades of outrageous vote buying, this isnt SF policy, its FFG!

Try go to the uk and germany and tell them to abolish water charges and property tax, that nobody should pay anything! LOL!

FFG are reaping decades of imprudent economic mismanagement and idiocy! and I understand totally why FG dont want to form part of government, because its clear to them, what an absolute clus**r**** the situation is!

Eric Cartman

IngazZagni wrote: »

Ireland already has one of the most progressive tax systems in the developed world though were the rich pay far more and rightly so. There is a tipping point though and to increase tax even further will lead to assets and jobs moving overseas.

I would say we have passed that tipping point. The current system painfully cripples the middle class in the 30-200k bracket and encourages those highly skilled professions out of the country.

LeinsterDub

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I would say we have passed that tipping point. The current system painfully cripples the middle class in the 30-200k bracket and encourages those highly skilled professions out of the country.

Perhaps if they'd didn't need to spend most of their wages on health, housing and transportation

JohnnyFlash

Idbatterim wrote: »

SF policies are criticised as not feasible! look at the **** show we currently have! Masses outside the tax net, no water charges, no LPT , spending based on huge but unstable corporation tax returns, addressing the housing crisis by rip off deals like in dundrum. Wanting to continually hike the already over the top state pension by twenty a five euro over the next five years. This bull****, which is just decades of outrageous vote buying, this isnt SF policy, its FFG!

Try go to the uk and germany and tell them to abolish water charges and property tax, that nobody should pay anything! LOL!

FFG are reaping decades of imprudent economic mismanagement and idiocy! and I understand totally why FG dont want to form part of government, because its clear to them, what an absolute clus**r**** the situation is!

Didn’t you vote for SF? You change your mind about things about as often as I change the radio station.

Eric Cartman

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Perhaps if they'd didn't need to spend most of their wages of health, housing and transportation

I agree, a 90 day eviction process to lower mortgage interest rates, abolishing the social housing requirement to lower house prices and increase securitisation for banks, cutting tax on healthcare products and abolishing VRT and motor tax would definitely assist in reducing the overburdening of the middle class.

Idbatterim

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I would say we have passed that tipping point. The current system painfully cripples the middle class in the 30-200k bracket and encourages those highly skilled professions out of the country.

of course it does, here is a link. How many doctors and nurses look at the marginal rate (amongst other things obviously) and think FCUK this? But I am delighted that we can offer the worlds best welfare system, to keep the really important people here, like margaret cash and co...

In my company, staff turn down extra hours , if paid at the marginal rate, because half it goes up in smoke, why would you bother! Now when FFG talk about rewarding work and the damage SF would do to the economy, we already have punitive employment taxes that is damaging our competitiveness, but they probably dont give a ****, because its not big business thats being hit! No, tax the working poor a portion of their wages at FIFTY percent, like they are the wolf of fcuking wallstreet!

This country has a serious chip on its shoulder, about wanting to bring everyone down to the same low level. Must be something to do with the past here and english rule etc

https://www.thejournal.ie/tax-scheme-multinationals-ireland-4815711-Sep2019/

James Brown

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Fair enough. Let’s see the others do things differently. There’s a big tranche of social housing coming on stream so that’s a good start for a new government. And slaintecare is a plan for the health service. Sticky subjects like gay marriage and abortion are dealt with as well.

Time now for FG to feck off into opposition for a while. A strong opposition is a vital part of democracy.

Hopefully.
Unless it's anyone but FG, then it's hurlers from the ditch and all that sh*te right?
Funny how FG/Varadkar are openly 'relishing' going into opposition. Are these the lads you all meant regarding 'they don't want to govern'? Is that cool now it's FG? Don't get me wrong I hope they f*** off for a long long time.

Idbatterim

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Didn’t you vote for SF? You change your mind about things about as often as I change the radio station.

I voted for SF as the other two are beyond a joke. I am just saying, FFG neednt talk about prudence! for the reasons I gave...