So according to the Sindo,its an FF-FG-Green-Grand coalition then ?

Mortelaro

Was there not enough support for Sinn Féin and the vote left transfer left movement?

Let's face it the greens are not really a left party,so if this goes ahead,you have s centre led government for the next 5 years
Plenty time to have a few hundred thousand extra houses built,an affordable child car plan in place,taxes reduced and the health service overhauled under Sláinte care

Interesting times indeed...

suicide_circus

The problem with keeping SF to their natural environment of the opposition benches is that we'll never hear and end of it, old boys club conspiracy, #voteforchange, world's smallest violin etc etc

If SF actually got into government their cough would have been softened forevermore after they at very least failed to deliver the whackier parts of the manifesto and more than likely tanked the economy to some degree

BanditLuke

Another blow for democracy if true.

The Satanist

I for one welcome our new *nothing will ****ing change with bonus taxes on top* overlords.

careless sherpa

Mortelaro wrote: »

Was there not enough support for Sinn Féin and the vote left transfer left movement?

Let's face it the greens are not really a left party,so if this goes ahead,you have s centre led government for the next 5 years
Plenty time to have a few hundred thousand extra houses built,an affordable child car plan in place,taxes reduced and the health service overhauled under Sláinte care

Interesting times indeed...

That is presuming no significant slowdown or recession in the intervening period

Outkast_IRE

BanditLuke wrote: »

Another blow for democracy if true.

How so ? Sinn Fein did not get a majority in any capacity as much as they like to blow on about it

Uriel.

BanditLuke wrote: »

Another blow for democracy if true.

A great result. Three of the four biggest parties coming together to form a, hopefully, stable government.
Shinners can now spend some time doing due diligence with their new TDs and the rest of the left can reassume their comfy, no responsibility lives in the Dáil.

Sarn

All this would do is postpone the inevitable. SF’s share of the vote will increase while they are in opposition, with people saying a lack of democracy, despite democracy in action.

suicide_circus

suicide_circus wrote: »

The problem with keeping SF to their natural environment of the opposition benches is that we'll never hear and end of it, old boys club conspiracy, #voteforchange, world's smallest violin etc etc

If SF actually got into government their cough would have been softened forevermore after they at very least failed to deliver the whackier parts of the manifesto and more than likely tanked the economy to some degree

Shouldn’t that be “old persons club”?

pure.conya

we are dopes

jimmycrackcorm

BanditLuke wrote: »

Another blow for democracy if true.

I don't think you understand what democracy means when FF and FG hold twice as many seats as SF.

Oranage2

SF won't like this but it definitely suits them being able to moan from the side. If FFG+G do a bad job then SF get their chance rightfully next GE.

is_that_so

BanditLuke wrote: »

Another blow for democracy if true.

How exactly, given that people voted for three parties in almost exactly the same numbers?

marko99

BanditLuke wrote:

Another blow for democracy if true.

How so? They didn't win enough seats to form a government. That's exactly what democracy is.

The fact that you don't like a particular result doesn't make it undemocratic!

Salary Negotiator

Oranage2 wrote: »

SF won't like this but it definitely suits them being able to moan from the side. If FFG+G do a bad job then SF get their chance rightfully next GE.

This is SF’s ideal outcome.

They could not have delivered on any of the main points of their manifesto so will be delighted that they’re not in power.

SF are delighted at this no matter what they may say.

is_that_so

I'd hope it's a Francis Urquhart moment for all - "You might think so, I couldn't possibly comment"!

So nothing changes except with the addition of some new airy fairy taxes that the huggers will tack on. That was all as worthwhile as expected then.

suicide_circus

Deleted User wrote: »

Shouldn’t that be “old persons club”?

the ladies didnt do too well in this election

Salary Negotiator

Salary Negotiator wrote: »

This is SF’s ideal outcome.

They could not have delivered on any of the main points of their manifesto so will be delighted that they’re not in power.

SF are delighted at this no matter what they may say.

That’s of no use to any of us that work and weren’t born into money/property though.

BanditLuke

BanditLuke wrote: »

Another blow for democracy if true.

Not at all..... This is what was voted for

is_that_so

Oranage2 wrote: »

SF won't like this but it definitely suits them being able to moan from the side. If FFG+G do a bad job then SF get their chance rightfully next GE.

Well whoever it is, they are setting off on the best foundation of any government since 2007, with only the Brexit storm cloud hovering. I'd also say, and no disrespect to any other party, it would have a pretty sizeable pool of talent to dip into.

ReginaldSmythV

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

That’s of no use to any of us that work and weren’t born into money/property though.

I work, wasn't born into money or property. I pay plenty tax and will be delighted if SF have no say on what's done with it.

Necro

Uriel. wrote: »

A great result. Three of the four biggest parties coming together to form a, hopefully, stable government.
Shinners can now spend some time doing due diligence with their new TDs and the rest of the left can reassume their comfy, no responsibility lives in the Dáil.

This, 100 times this.

Sinn Fein and their supporters may kick and scream about it but a grand coalition actually IS change, like it or lump it.

Augeo

Augeo wrote: »

I work, wasn't born into money or property. I pay plenty tax and will be delighted if SF have no say on what's done with it.

They could have done less than what will be done with it now (nothing).

With the Green Party in its probably time for another generation of young people to start looking at visas and heading for the airport.

firemansam4

BanditLuke wrote:

Another blow for democracy if true.

FF, FG and GP got over 50 percent of the vote.

Can you explain how this is a blow for democracy?

Also SF have already tried looking at making up a left wing government but the numbers just are not there for them.

Augme

You'd have thought the greens would have learnt there lesson from the last time out. I can't see this being popular with their voters at all. I was one of them and I'd really struggle to vote for them again in the next election.

NIMAN

This could work in SF's favour.

We might have 4 or 5 years now of FF/FG/GP, and they will have to deliver tens of thousands of new homes and fix the trolley and hospital issues, otherwise it will simply push more people to SF in the next GE. Plus there is Brexit, a potential slow down which would also be a disaster.

So a few more years in opposition might be a blessing for SF. Unless of course the new government fixes things, and then FG/FF will be forgiven and maybe poll better next time round.

shesty

I didn't see anybody running up to go into coalition with SF.So the decision was taken out of their hands, basically.

is_that_so

Augme wrote: »

You'd have thought the greens would have learnt there lesson from the last time out. I can't see this being popular with their voters at all. I was one of them and I'd really struggle to vote for them again in the next election.

It all depends how it works out. If it's a C- or worse for The Greens then yes but both of the other two are supportive of some type of climate change plan so it shouldn't be 2007 all over again.

IngazZagni

Having FF in power again makes me nautious however policy wise this grand coalition would be the least worst option for me.
On the flip side SF will become the undisputed main opposition party and that will give them a lot of strength going into the next election.

Augme

is_that_so wrote: »

It all depends how it works out. If it's a C- or worse for The Greens then yes but both of the other two are supportive of some type of climate change plan so it shouldn't be 2007 all over again.

Some type of climate change plan says it all though. If they get run over in government like they did last time it would be very foolish.

is_that_so

NIMAN wrote: »

This could work in SF's favour.

We might have 4 or 5 years now of FF/FG/GP, and they will have to deliver tens of thousands of new homes and fix the trolley and hospital issues, otherwise it will simply push more people to SF in the next GE. Plus there is Brexit, a potential slow down which would also be a disaster.

So a few more years in opposition might be a blessing for SF. Unless of course the new government fixes things, and then FG/FF will be forgiven and maybe poll better next time round.

The housing situation always needed more time and effort than the incumbents gave it and even 2-3 years down the road it would be expected to be a whole lot more stable. Oddly enough Brexit is the one thing they would be strongest on with the Brexit team back in situ again.

woohoo!!!

I may not like it but it is democracy in action. People voted, parties and indos got in, now up to them to figure it out. 2 of the big 3 coming together and an other is what the numbers said. I'd prefer if SF were going into government but they didn't get enough seats to ensure that they did.

is_that_so

Augme wrote: »

Some type of climate change plan says it all though. If they get run over in government like they did last time it would be very foolish.

Realpolitik will out here, not hopeless idealism. I think the numbers allow all three, assuming it is these three, to lay down their absolute red lines. For the Greens that's climate change and I think the other two can go along with that. If someone says no then it's probably another election, but that doesn't mean any of them is forced to do a deal.

firemansam4

Augme wrote:

You'd have thought the greens would have learnt there lesson from the last time out. I can't see this being popular with their voters at all. I was one of them and I'd really struggle to vote for them again in the next election.

Well maybe you should have took more time and listened to there manifesto before voting for them then as they clearly stated before the election they would be willing to work with any of the parties who would implement some of there green policies.

_Kaiser_

So with FG and the Greens, all we can expect is lots more taxes under the guise of saving the planet and meeting arbitrary targets - fantastic! :rolleyes:

They'll build some more social housing which won't benefit anyone who isn't on list somewhere (given the length of those lists), and the children's hospital and rural broadband will go ahead at ridiculous final costs.

It won't do much for those already living month to month and paying for everything here, unless you consider a fiver a week income tax cut (which will be more than absorbed in the aforementioned new taxes) something to shout about.

We would have been better off going back to the ballot box and trying to get a clear majority. I'm not convinced that SF would be the ones to get it - I think voter apathy and expectation that FF and FG would simply swap seats resulting in the low turnout is where SF's bounce came from.

Ash.J.Williams

Uriel. wrote: »

A great result. Three of the four biggest parties coming together to form a, hopefully, stable government.
Shinners can now spend some time doing due diligence with their new TDs and the rest of the left can reassume their comfy, no responsibility lives in the Dáil.

One of the Kildare sf reps was on her holidays during the canvassing and election she literally had her name down and that’s it

Mortelaro

NIMAN wrote: »

This could work in SF's favour.

We might have 4 or 5 years now of FF/FG/GP, and they will have to deliver tens of thousands of new homes and fix the trolley and hospital issues, otherwise it will simply push more people to SF in the next GE. Plus there is Brexit, a potential slow down which would also be a disaster.

So a few more years in opposition might be a blessing for SF. Unless of course the new government fixes things, and then FG/FF will be forgiven and maybe poll better next time round.

Well,we would all deserve a majority SF government if none of the protest vote problems are fixed after 5 years
But I suspect the people behind this grand coalition idea are clever enough not to fall asleep at the problem wheel a 2nd time
SF mis fired
Their only hope now is a massive recession

Whitecarstones

And when things (continue) to go wrong with health, housing, childcare etc etc, who will get the brunt of it at the next GE?

The Greens!

Are they that stupid to get into bed with the two Fossils?

Billcarson

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I don't think you understand what democracy means when FF and FG hold twice as many seats as SF.

Its nothing more then a circle the wagons job against sf and others. I look forward sf breaking through that circle in a few yrs time.

Mortelaro

Whitecarstones wrote: »

And when things (continue) to go wrong with health, housing, childcare etc etc, who will get the brunt of it at the next GE?

The Greens!

Are they that stupid to get into bed with the two Fossils?

But under your new change overlords, the first change will be nothing will go wrong
SF's biggest nightmare would be to lose half those office expenses and for the new kildare t.d not to be able to go on an even bigger all inclusive family holiday this time,for say a roundy birthday

GG66

firemansam4 wrote: »

FF, FG and GP got over 50 percent of the vote.

Can you explain how this is a blow for democracy?

Also SF have already tried looking at making up a left wing government but the numbers just are not there for them.

True, I don't think it's a blow for democracy as this is the result of proportional representation

But he does have a point worthy of an unbiased discussion.

FG ran on a platform where Varadkar proposed working with FF again. I think it's fair to say the vast majority of the population rejected this. FG lost seats and returned as the 3rd largest party.

FF ran on a platform where MM was clear he didn't want a FFFG coalition. He also said he wouldn't work with SF. The electorate voted for them on this basis and they also lost seats.

Now it's impossible to know why every individual voted the way they did but it's fair to say there was a massive mood for change. A Govt made up of FFFG is not change.

This is two parties who individually and as a unit have been rejected and are clinging to power. And they want to drag the Greens along with them.

The Greens may decide to join them. Remember this is the Indo saying this while the GP have not said anything like this. If they do I expect they will be annihilated again at the next polls as I don't believe most people voted Green to put FFFG back into power.

I think it's going to be interesting if the greens say no and a Govt isnt formed and we have a reelection.

We may not end up with a common platform for the left but the public will have a better sense of what they're voting for.

FFFG or the other parties who wont support them.

Bob24

Oranage2 wrote: »

SF won't like this but it definitely suits them being able to moan from the side. If FFG+G do a bad job then SF get their chance rightfully next GE.

I actually think this is good for SF long term for the reason you mention.

FG and FF have already been hard to tell appart for many voters for a few decades but at least there was an apparence of change as they were taking turns to be in power. If they now go into a coalition after every single election they will truly become indistinguishable and indeed more and more voters will see them as one single FFG party. Meaning that SF can present themselves as the only alternative to that FFG party which has been in charge for ages. And keeping in mind that in every democracy at one point or another voters want to change the party in charge this puts SF next in line.

And to be clear I am not saying the above is good or bad; just that it is where we are likely headed if we get another FF/FG coalition.

If I was FF/FG I would think long and hard before entering into that coalition, as IMO it would mark the end of each of them’s ability to get a majority without the other and eventually lead to either a merger between them or one of them becoming a minor party whose only electoral ambitions could ever be as a junior coalition partner.

Seth Brundle

GG66 wrote: »

FG ran on a platform where Varadkar proposed working with FF again. I think it's fair to say the vast majority of the population rejected this. FG lost seats and returned as the 3rd largest party.

Now it's impossible to know why every individual voted the way they did but it's fair to say there was a massive mood for change. A Govt made up of FFFG is not change.

This is two parties who individually and as a unit have been rejected and are clinging to power. And they want to drag the Greens along with them.

The Greens may decide to join them. Remember this is the Indo saying this while the GP have not said anything like this. If they do I expect they will be annihilated again at the next polls as I don't believe most people voted Green to put FFFG back into power.

Most people didn't vote for any particular party or proposal (including SF & the alphabet soup). This is normal!

Mortelaro

GG66 wrote: »

True, I don't think it's a blow for democracy as this is the result of proportional representation

But he does have a point worthy of an unbiased discussion.

FG ran on a platform where Varadkar proposed working with FF again. .

This is where the rest of your post falls down
Vradakar DID Not propose during the election that FG work with FF again
When pressed he said they would only as a last resort
The prospect of having to do that seems to be one of the messages of the election result
I would agree though that both parties may aswell merge after this though
Which btw wouldn't be a favourite outcome for SF either as then there would be an even more concentrated attack on their Spend spend spend until we're broke again agenda

Whitecarstones

Mortelaro wrote: »

But under your new change overlords, the first change will be nothing will go wrong
SF's biggest nightmare would be to lose half those office expenses and for the new kildare t.d not to be able to go on an even bigger all inclusive family holiday this time,for say a roundy birthday

Maybe just maybe I do not have any affiliation to any party. Why do people assume that if you are against FF and FG you are automatically a "shinner" sitting at home in their trackies with two teeth in your head and covered in tattoos?

Some people that MAY have voted for "change"...

Overworked and exhausted nurses on crap pay working in over crowded hospitals.
Young teachers who are not treated well with regards to pay inequality.
People who have found themselves homeless in hotels, whilst huge amounts of property lay vacant.
Farmers who are not being paid properly for their produce.
People of all ages who have been let to rot on hospital trolleys in narrow corridors.
Hard working people who pay usc, despite the fact it was supposed to be abolished years ago.
Those who have to pay extortionate childcare costs.
Those who have to pay extortionate rent every month yet cant be approved for a mortgage.
Those who yes do cherish their history and felt insulted the RIC was to be remembered. (Dont have to be a shinner).
Those who are in fear of their lives because of crime and nothing really being done about it. (Co. Louth enters my head).
Those who are sick of seeing the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.

I could go on and on....

People are so blinded by their hatred of SF they seem to forgive the two main parties for all the damage they have done to this country. THEY. Not SF, OR PPB OR GREENS OR SDS etc.

So why not give SF a shot at doing something the other two have failed to rectify over and over again?

I think people are cutting off their nose to spite their face at this stage.

But I really think people need to stop tarnishing SF voters all the same. Its coming from complete snobbery. Its not all RA heads voting for this change. Its people from all walks of life that are sick to their teeth of the incompetence, and their greed.

_Kaiser_

Whitecarstones wrote: »

And when things (continue) to go wrong with health, housing, childcare etc etc, who will get the brunt of it at the next GE?

The Greens!

Are they that stupid to get into bed with the two Fossils?

They did before remember. They were in with FF till 2011

The thing about the Greens is they have already sold their voters a lie. All the new taxes they'll push for will do fook all to help the environment. It'll just put more financial pressure on people already paying enough.

When China and the USA among others start taking the "climate emergency" :rolleyes: seriously then come back to me. Until then trying to force Ireland into living like we're in some 3rd world backwater will do zero to save the bunny rabbits!

GG66

Bob24 wrote: »

If I was them I would think long and hard before entering into that coalition, as IMO it would mark the end of each of them’s ability to get a majority without the other and eventually lead to either a merger between them or one of them becoming a minor party whose only electoral ambitions could be as a junior coalition partner.

I think you're right. FF didn't want to go into coalition last time out because they wanted to deny SF the main opposition podium.

It didnt work out come election time, the ppl saw through it. They won't do it again and either will FG so a coalition is the only way to go unless they want a reelection.

I expect they're thinking the following

1. If it's considered a protest vote - Steal the SF policies that reflect some of the demands of the people and hope they do enough between now and the next election.

2. If it's a shift to the left - hole it off for as long as possible. A coalition will allow MM to be Taoiseach and possibly LV in rotation. Also allows other old boys to shore up their pensions with ministerial ones before the tide turns.

3. Wrap this all up in "stability, best interest of the country" rhetoric

The Govt. won't last 5 years and they'll both be out before then.

Mortelaro

Whitecarstones wrote: »

But I really think people need to stop tarnishing SF voters all the same. Its coming from complete snobbery. Its not all RA heads voting for this change. Its people from all walks of life that are sick to their teeth of the incompetence, and their greed.

But at the top of your post... you said this

you are automatically a "shinner" sitting at home in their trackies with two teeth in your head and covered in tattoos?

Whitecarstones

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

They did before remember. They were in with FF till 2011

The thing about the Greens is they have already sold their voters lie. All the new taxes they'll push for will do fook all to help the environment. It'll just put more financial pressure on people already paying enough.

When China and the USA among others start taking the "climate emergency" :rolleyes: seriously then come back to me. Until then trying to force Ireland into living like we're in some 3rd world backwater will do zero to save the bunny rabbits!

I am not a Green voter. Just pointing out that if I was in that party I would be like, well hold on its obvious a significant amount of people voted for complete change if we go into gov with these geezers we could be in for a rude awakening at the next election.

Like Labour when they went into gov with FG

quokula

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

They did before remember. They were in with FF till 2011

The thing about the Greens is they have already sold their voters a lie. All the new taxes they'll push for will do fook all to help the environment. It'll just put more financial pressure on people already paying enough.

When China and the USA among others start taking the "climate emergency" :rolleyes: seriously then come back to me. Until then trying to force Ireland into living like we're in some 3rd world backwater will do zero to save the bunny rabbits!

The thing about the Greens is that unlike the sinners they actually believe in their policies and I believe / hope they’ll be willing to go into government for the sake of making what difference they can in the biodiversity crisis and the climate crisis, even if it hurts them at the next election.

SF will never ever put country before party in that way.