What have we come to

maccored

tjhook wrote: »

I think that's a fair reflection of the Left's position.


But likewise, the parties of the Centre view SF/IRA as pretty toxic too. Hence the current impasse.

with FF and FG, the toxicity is pretty current. WIth SF and the PIRA, the link is very much in the past and with a version of SF that originated in the North under very different circumstances than a political party in the republic of ireland would develop. The version we have of SF here, nowadays, is very much based in politics - even the garda commissioner admits that (if) the PIRA still exist that they are now political and not linked to violence .

So theres a difference between the two examples.

tjhook

maccored wrote: »

So theres a difference between the two examples.

There are plenty of differences. But that doesn't change how the Left and the centre view eachother. Each views the other as toxic.

maccored

tjhook wrote: »

There are plenty of differences. But that doesn't change how the Left and the centre view eachother. Each views the other as toxic.

aye - but some of those views are based on the here an now and some are outdated

James Brown

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If you're going to say that FF And FG are both the same then at least admit that they won the popular vote with twice the number of seats as SF.

Or of the two, which party bumped up public service pay massively to unsustainable levels during the boom, and which party opposed the introduction of water charges?

Seems to me that FF have significantly more in common with SF than FG



A C&S allowing for a SF minister for justice will never happen.

The advantage FF/FG have might turn against them. They each have a core of FF and FG families who support them, rain or shine, national crises or economic melt down. All parties have a base but FF/FG have the biggest. Similarly to the Sinn Fein conundrum, if they officially go in with each other it might not sit well with a grass roots base with it's roots in being against FF or FG.

During the boom FG were calling for more goodies. Only Labour were calling for a halt on the sale of public land. Also weren't the FG contingent claiming FF invented the idea of water charges?

Don't see why not. We've had FF finance ministers and FG minister of housing. Not exactly stellar. Neither was Fitzgerald in Justice and Flanagan made an arse of himself.

tjhook

maccored wrote: »

aye - but some of those views are based on the here an now and some are outdated

That's one opinion.


Others may form a different opinion based on their own memories of what these groups did, and what the heads of the Gardai and PSNI believe to be the case today.

Loafing Oaf

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The one thing the left can generally agree on is that the neoliberalism of FFG is toxic. If they can agree on that, even if nothing else, I could see them putting something together.

But the numbers the numbers the numbers.

Even if you could round up all of the left 'parties' (including one-man bands like Peadar Toibin), you would still require the support of 12 of the 19 independents for a bare majority. And even if we very generously label nine of those as 'left-leaning' (including the likes of Shanahan and Canney), you'd still need to recruit at least three (and in practice five or six) from the FF/FG/PD gene pool to get over the line. Do you think it's feasible for Mary Lou to get the likes of Mattie McGrath or Peter Fitzpatrick to sign up for a socialist revolution?

tayto lover

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

If you're a taxpayer who lives under a crappy quality of life and a constant threat of eviction because your rent keeps getting higher, it's less risky than five more years of giving state land to private developers instead of subsidising housing construction like we should have been doing for the last five years.

But you’d be replacing one giveaway with another.
SF seems to be morphing into the old FF with all the “costed” promises but little in the way of paying or them. I don’t want to end up in hospital being operated on by some half-trained lad from foreign fields who I can’t understand while all our own surgeons have emigrated to Dubai or elsewhere because of being taxed out of this country in order that the lad “who doesn’t get up in the morning” can have his few afternoon pints and his bet in Ladbrooks.

Foxtrol

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The one thing the left can generally agree on is that the neoliberalism of FFG is toxic. If they can agree on that, even if nothing else, I could see them putting something together.

But there has been no evidence that feeling FF & FG are toxic is close to enough to make them put on their big boy pants and try to form a government.

The left talks a big game but that easy shouting from the sidelines, from forming parties to now forming government their actions don't follow.

A government which gets almost nothing done is better than a government which actively does bad things. A left coalition may not make huge amounts of progress, but FFS Fine Gael are actively making things worse because they ideologically believe that things getting worse for ordinary people is a good thing because it benefits the investment class, and FF... Well, we all know what FF did the last time they were in office.

I'd rather five years of a Dáil hamstrung by disagreements to five years of a government which takes the "let them eat cake" attitude to the housing crisis.

So things would have been better if FG came into power and did nothing to move the country to a financial surplus and unemployment was still at 16%? Was the 11% increased employment 'the investment class'?

It is all fine to claim a left government hamstrung by disagreements for 5 years would be preferable, but would it really be if there was a recession? Do you think an alphabet soup of the left could lead through tough decisions during that period?

Shefwedfan

How SF getting on with putting together a government?

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

How SF getting on with putting together a government?

They had talks with the Greens yesterday which they both say will be intensified next week.

FF and G are still only at talks about talks stage.

Eric Cartman

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They had talks with the Greens yesterday which they both say will be intensified next week.

FF and G are still only at talks about talks stage.

the SF grand coalition requires a scenario where the healey ray's and the greens have to work together and where PbP and Verona Murphy & Noel Grealish have to work together.

It won't happen. We're going back to the ballot box.

James Brown

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the SF grand coalition requires a scenario where the healey ray's and the greens have to work together and where PbP and Verona Murphy & Noel Grealish have to work together.

It won't happen. We're going back to the ballot box.

Likely but it's possible FG will form some agreement with FF, where LV steps aside shortly thereafter.

maccored

tjhook wrote: »

That's one opinion.


Others may form a different opinion based on their own memories of what these groups did, and what the heads of the Gardai and PSNI believe to be the case today.

i lived through what went on where it went on - the heads of the gardai and PSNA in regards that report are almost the same thing. Im sorry but I find the word of an ex RUC officer hard to believe - considering he was second in command of the PSNI when the report was written. he's hardly going to disagree with it.

Proof is what is required here, and there isnt any .... though at the same time, they are saying the some members of the PIRA has been absorbed into SF and are now using political means. cant see the issue with that if its the case. the way its being twisted though - which is how you are presenting it ... I'd like to see proof of this shadowy group controlling SF.

James Brown

maccored wrote: »

i lived through what went on where it went on - the heads of the gardai and PSNA in regards that report are almost the same thing. Im sorry but I find the word of an ex RUC officer hard to believe - considering he was second in command of the PSNI when the report was written. he's hardly going to disagree with it.

Proof is what is required here, and there isnt any .... though at the same time, they are saying the some members of the PIRA has been absorbed into SF and are now using political means. cant see the issue with that if its the case. the way its being twisted though - which is how you are presenting it ... I'd like to see proof of this shadowy group controlling SF.

It makes complete sense to me.

Tory election playbook guides FG strategy

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/tory-election-playbook-guides-fg-strategy-1.2475547?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2Ftory-election-playbook-guides-fg-strategy-1.2475547

Look at Enda there, making sure he's in shot. Sure you'd miss his monkeyshines, the rascal. 'Man with two pints', bless.

blanch152

Bowie wrote: »

Likely but it's possible FG will form some agreement with FF, where LV steps aside shortly thereafter.

:D:D:D:D:D

You really have it bad, don't you.

There is no indication that Leo is going anywhere.

Idbatterim

tayto lover wrote: »

But you’d be replacing one giveaway with another.
SF seems to be morphing into the old FF with all the “costed” promises but little in the way of paying or them. I don’t want to end up in hospital being operated on by some half-trained lad from foreign fields who I can’t understand while all our own surgeons have emigrated to Dubai or elsewhere because of being taxed out of this country in order that the lad “who doesn’t get up in the morning” can have his few afternoon pints and his bet in Ladbrooks.

I totally agree. A pity that the fg I voted for in 2011 and 2016, have more interest in keeping the likes of Margaret cash and the welfare warriors here from emigrating, than badly needed workers like those in health , construction etc. but this country, or more like rte obsession with “ de vulneable “ has totally clowned all politicians minds here. There are very very few actual vulnerable, despite rte telling you fifty percent of the population are !