What have we come to

James Brown

quokula wrote: »

When the electorate vote for flag waving nationalist lying charlatan populists who promise the moon without a lick of a plan to deliver it then, yes, they got it wrong, as much as it would be political suicide for an actual politician to claim as much.

Brexit was wrong. Trump was wrong. Salvini was wrong. SF would be wrong.

However the Irish electorate didn’t actually vote for SF, over 75% of Irish people knew better than that, so most of the electorate are just fine, as much as some people seem to like to ignore.

How do you think decent people feel seeing Fianna Fail getting back in? With a history of rotating between FF and FG, to come out now and tell the public they got it wrong in trying to move away is not credible.

Now you're saying they didn't. Look the rise for SF is the big news, but they didn't bring it over the top. So we'll see. However, it's a sign FF and FG need buck themselves up, but neither seem willing to do so. Rather than revisiting their attitude towards the tax payer they are intent on attacking SF, which is working out well for SF so far.
Personally I'd happily take four more years of FG if they changed a few things. I don't believe they will, so they need go and Leo need wipe his nose and go off on his gap year or what ever because he's doing FG damage and the country, with his nasty bitter little digs.

blanch152

smurgen wrote: »

No I haven't.links please?

It was in one of the homeless threads, you can search through my posts or the threads, whichever you prefer.

blanch152

Bowie wrote: »

Can anyone point out a SF policy where the public gave them a mandate towards criminality as featured in their manifestos?

They have never needed a mandate to engage in criminality. They engaged in criminality for decades in the North without any mandate.

More recently, when they referred on the abuser of Paudie McGahon to the IRA, they engaged in it in the South.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

It was in one of the homeless threads, you can search through my posts or the threads, whichever you prefer.

Cool. That's were I believe you'll find your link, which I quoted regarding most new builds being build to rent

Cupatae

Bowie wrote: »

How do you think decent people feel seeing Fianna Fail getting back in? With a history of rotating between FF and FG, to come out now and tell the public they got it wrong in trying to move away is not credible.

Now you're saying they didn't. Look the rise for SF is the big news, but they didn't bring it over the top. So we'll see. However, it's a sign FF and FG need buck themselves up, but neither seem willing to do so. Rather than revisiting their attitude towards the tax payer they are intent on attacking SF, which is working out well for SF so far.
Personally I'd happily take four more years of FG if they changed a few things. I don't believe they will, so they need go and Leo need wipe his nose and go off on his gap year or what ever because he's doing FG damage and the country, with his nasty bitter little digs.

These self proclaimed "intelligent upper class", that support FF and FG seem to think anyone that votes for SF, is a "tracksuit wearing scumbag", that is also trying to vote back in the troubles, murders...and in general the Apocalypse depending on who you listen to.

The sheer notion that normal people voted for them in the hope for change from FF and FG usually leads to them bawling and screaming about all of the above in an attempt to discredit SF and anyone that supports them as much as possible.

***Disclaimer*** I didnt vote for SF, just calling it as i see it.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

They have never needed a mandate to engage in criminality. They engaged in criminality for decades in the North without any mandate.

More recently, when they referred on the abuser of Paudie McGahon to the IRA, they engaged in it in the South.

When you are fighting the 'government' that tends to be the case alright.

Sadly these things are all too common. The state turned a blind eye to the church for generations. Criminality is rife too, with the former assistant of Ceann Comhairle Seán Ó Fearghaí done for defrauding a housing association, the Ceann Comhairle himself got a spot of bother for writing a letter on behalf of a child abuser and another FF TD, Brendan Kenneally knew his cousin had abused children but did not report it to the Garda.
All horrible things. Not to be dismissed or ignored.
None of this has anything to do with Michaeal Martin, or the broader intent of Fianna Fail I assume you would agree.

James Brown

Cupatae wrote: »

These self proclaimed "intelligent upper class", that support FF and FG seem to think anyone that votes for SF, is a "tracksuit wearing scumbag", that is also trying to vote back in the troubles, murders...and in general the Apocalypse depending on who you listen to.

The sheer notion that normal people voted for them in the hope for change from FF and FG usually leads to them bawling and screaming about all of the above in an attempt to discredit SF and anyone that supports them as much as possible.

***Disclaimer*** I didnt vote for SF, just calling it as i see it.

Many 'tip the cap to your betters' working class folk think they are being clever by supporting FG. They buy the PR.
It doesn't matter they will not allow themselves to accept any criticism as genuine because that's not how they function. It's all about the team. Protect and attack. Just look at Varadkar's attitude. A decent chap would lick his wounds and take loss with a measure of grace and look to what caused the electorate to go elsewhere, instead him and his own are being nasty and telling the public they supported the wrong parties. It's 'you're with us or against us', the needs of the people doesn't come into it so they can't comprehend others thinking that way. You're a shinner who supports criminality or a whinging waster etc.

Foxtrol

Cupatae wrote: »

These self proclaimed "intelligent upper class", that support FF and FG seem to think anyone that votes for SF, is a "tracksuit wearing scumbag", that is also trying to vote back in the troubles, murders...and in general the Apocalypse depending on who you listen to.

The sheer notion that normal people voted for them in the hope for change from FF and FG usually leads to them bawling and screaming about all of the above in an attempt to discredit SF and anyone that supports them as much as possible.

***Disclaimer*** I didnt vote for SF, just calling it as i see it.

I agree with this but it goes the other way too.

Many in SF and their supporters appear to now believe that those that voted for them in this election are suddenly fine with the IRA connections, ongoing questionable activity, support a united Ireland in the next 5 years etc etc

blanch152

Bowie wrote: »

Cool. That's were I believe you'll find your link, which I quoted regarding most new builds being build to rent

It doesn't exist.

James Brown

Foxtrol wrote: »

I agree with this but it goes the other way too.

Many in SF and their supporters appear to now believe that those that voted for them in this election are suddenly fine with the IRA connections, ongoing questionable activity, support a united Ireland in the next 5 years etc etc

I'm sure there are some but I doubt ML nor the broader party are that naive nor seeking any such thing. What FG/FF need to realise, for their own sake, is that's not the case. They'd be better off looking at the national crises and the way they do business. I think most of us would agree it's FG/FF's performance drove support elsewhere, not SF or SD or PBP suddenly becoming better.

Brendan Bendar

Bowie wrote: »

I'm sure there are some but I doubt ML nor the broader party are that naive nor seeking any such thing. What FG/FF need to realise, for their own sake, is that's not the case. They'd be better off looking at the national crises and the way they do business. I think most of us would agree it's FG/FF's performance drove support elsewhere, not SF or SD or PBP suddenly becoming better.

People will always look for the populist route.

People generally will not take the long term view and take some ‘pain’ to achieve better conditions.

The auld ‘What do we want,when do we want it- now!! coterie make sure that any long term planning involving some contribution however small, is stifled immediately amongst their support base.

That how it rolls, bub.

James Brown

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

People will always look for the populist route.

People generally will not take the long term view and take some ‘pain’ to achieve better conditions.

The auld ‘What do we want,when do we want it- now!! coterie make sure that any long term planning involving some contribution however small, is stifled immediately amongst their support base.

That how it rolls, bub.

Yet Kenny got in in 2011 on just that. Hard times, all in it together, change the way we do business...did a little worse next go...and under Varadkar worse still next go...

Anyone in FF/FG to ignore such a pattern deserves a few jants in the cheap seats.
My concern is they don't learn anything and get back in, as is their form. Thankfully we've a few new players looking like being an alternative.
....horse.

shadydestroyer

I don't think Fine Gael didn't do themselves any favors with my generation early 30's is the whole RIC Commemoration right before the general election. One of the stupidest things they ever done and just shows how far they are from general public with "Come out ye Black and Tans" going number one in the UK and Ireland on the Itunes chart.

Also of course the cost of housing, renting and the health service in **** is another reason.
Mary pops out baby, gets a free house while others are working hard and can't get a mortgage?

Who else was their left for us to vote for? Fine Fail who bankrupted the country or Fine Gael who don't give a flying feck about the working class or young people.

Leo was so far away from what the middle class workers needed. I think people were just sick of bending over for Fine Gael and have had enough.

Sinn Fein was all there was left to vote for.

Eric Cartman

Cupatae wrote: »

were they heroin addicts?

almost all of dublins 150 rough sleepers are heroin addicts.

growleaves

smurgen wrote: »

Has anything positive come out of Fine Gael at all since before the election? Surely the best way to win back voters would be to tackle issues, give people hope and come up with fast track plans.all they've done is attack non stop and slur large parts of the electorate.

I think the answer to why they haven't done that is on these threads.

FG have become economically liberal determinists, believing that they are engaged in dispassionate technocratic management. Its their view of this 'economic clockwork', which they believe supersedes politics, that has created their reaction - they may even think that SF voters mean well but are simply 'incorrect'.

Those poor dearies, don't they know that permanent job insecurity, declining wages, excessive compensation for CEOs, passing on costs to consumers, land-hoarding cartels, tax avoidance for profitable banks, skyrocketing insurance premiums etc., etc. are all inevitable like death, aging and the rain in Sligo?

Shefwedfan

smurgen wrote: »

Especially when he's busy signing off on legislation to ban microbeads.

You just really haven’t a clue do you?

That bit of legislation will probably save millions of people from cancer and other diseases

Shefwedfan

shadydestroyer wrote: »

I don't think Fine Gael didn't do themselves any favors with my generation early 30's is the whole RIC Commemoration right before the general election. One of the stupidest things they ever done and just shows how far they are from general public with "Come out ye Black and Tans" going number one in the UK and Ireland on the Itunes chart.

Also of course the cost of housing, renting and the health service in **** is another reason.
Mary pops out baby, gets a free house while others are working hard and can't get a mortgage?

Who else was their left for us to vote for? Fine Fail who bankrupted the country or Fine Gael who don't give a flying feck about the working class or young people.

Leo was so far away from what the middle class workers needed. I think people were just sick of bending over for Fine Gael and have had enough.

Sinn Fein was all there was left to vote for.

That’s the problem, people just voted for Sinn Fein because they felt no other alternative

What you should have done was looked into what a Sinn Fein vote meant

The greens, Labour, independents etc, you have loads of options....even just vote for the best politician in the area, who has done the most for your area in last 5 years

I bet you will find your local SF politician in most areas has done f**k all for anyone but themselves

Foxtrol

growleaves wrote: »

I think the answer to why they haven't done that is on these threads.

FG have become economically liberal determinists, believing that they are engaged in dispassionate technocratic management. Its their view of this 'economic clockwork', which they believe supersedes politics, that has created their reaction - they may even think that SF voters mean well but are simply 'incorrect'.

Those poor dearies, don't they know that permanent job insecurity, declining wages, excessive compensation for CEOs, passing on costs to consumers, land-hoarding cartels, tax avoidance for profitable banks, skyrocketing insurance premiums etc., etc. are all inevitable like death, aging and the rain in Sligo?

What do you expect from them? FG currently have the same power as posters on these threads that you are complaining about, absolutely f*** all.

Also, does any party believe that people who vote for their rivals are 'correct'? Have SF come out and said that the 40 plus percent of people that voted for FF/FG are 'correct'?

Fred Cryton

growleaves wrote: »

Those poor dearies, don't they know that permanent job insecurity, declining wages, excessive compensation for CEOs, passing on costs to consumers, land-hoarding cartels, tax avoidance for profitable banks, skyrocketing insurance premiums etc., etc. are all inevitable like death, aging and the rain in Sligo?

Taking those one by one:


permanent job insecurity - that is common to all modern nations, nothing particular to Ireland or FG.

declining wages - Not true, wages are rising in Ireland, substantially.

excessive compensation for CEOs - common to all capitalist societies

passing on costs to consumers - huh? Why wouldn't they pass on costs to the consumers, are they charities?

land-hoarding cartels - If you don't like what someone is doing with the land, then you should pay more for it when it's for sale.

tax avoidance for profitable banks - a consequence of FF policies up to '07

skyrocketing insurance premiums - caused by Irish people making spurious insurance claims and by payouts hugely out of line with other countries. Why are insurance companies leaving Ireland if it's so great.



So in summary you are a classic lower middle class newly minted SF voter who thinks you've come across a magic beans solutions to everything but in fact are unaware of your limited analytical ability.

Idbatterim

Shefwedfan wrote: »

That’s the problem, people just voted for Sinn Fein because they felt no other alternative

What you should have done was looked into what a Sinn Fein vote meant

The greens, Labour, independents etc, you have loads of options....even just vote for the best politician in the area, who has done the most for your area in last 5 years

I bet you will find your local SF politician in most areas has done f**k all for anyone but themselves

I know what a vote for FFG meant, more of the same ****e if they arent given a serious rattle. Which they have been, this may have been the wake up call they needed.

Shefwedfan

Idbatterim wrote: »

I know what a vote for FFG meant, more of the same ****e if they arent given a serious rattle. Which they have been, this may have been the wake up call they needed.

Which is a bit stupid in my view


If the best politician in your area is a FF or a FG then vote for him


Instead, like in our area, we have a waste of space SF politician which has zero interest in the area, has done nothing for years and bet is he will continue to do nothing.



So instead of giving FF/FG a wake up call, you are now left with a waster for potentially 5 years who will do nothing for the area

Fann Linn

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Which is a bit stupid in my view


If the best politician in your area is a FF or a FG then vote for him


Instead, like in our area, we have a waste of space SF politician which has zero interest in the area, has done nothing for years and bet is he will continue to do nothing.



So instead of giving FF/FG a wake up call, you are now left with a waster for potentially 5 years who will do nothing for the area

Id prefer a TD to work for the country as a whole, rather than the local area. Too many Healy Rae's already covering that base.

James Brown

Shefwedfan wrote: »

That’s the problem, people just voted for Sinn Fein because they felt no other alternative

What you should have done was looked into what a Sinn Fein vote meant

The greens, Labour, independents etc, you have loads of options....even just vote for the best politician in the area, who has done the most for your area in last 5 years

I bet you will find your local SF politician in most areas has done f**k all for anyone but themselves

Do you not see that they were looking? Regardless of SF, FG need look at that. If it wasn't SF it would have been the SD's, Greens etc. Slagging off SF in not helping the public with their issues.
Be nice if FG concerned themselves with that.

Cupatae

At this stage there all ****e let's be real most of em are there to collect a wage, we may aswell do raffle instead of elections , if your number is called have a crack at it and collect your wage/pension and drive on.

Shefwedfan

Bowie wrote: »

Do you not see that they were looking? Regardless of SF, FG need look at that. If it wasn't SF it would have been the SD's, Greens etc. Slagging off SF in not helping the public with their issues.
Be nice if FG concerned themselves with that.

As I said I want to see SF in power, how is Mary Lou getting on with talking to other parties?

Or still just talking to RTÉ?

growleaves

Fred Cryton wrote: »

permanent job insecurity - that is common to all modern nations, nothing particular to Ireland or FG.

excessive compensation for CEOs - common to all capitalist societies

It isn't common to all capitalist societies - just to ones in the here and now.

For most of the 20th century, a combination of social and political pressure (including by governments) made it impossible for wealthy interests to impose Gilded Age-style wealth inequalities on Americans and Europeans.

Starting with the '77 boom and bust followed by Reaganomics and 'recovery', that consensus has been replaced by a new economically liberal one which neither I, nor Irish people generally, are forced to endorse uncritically.

declining wages - Not true, wages are rising in Ireland, substantially.

But if real wages aren't rising fast enough relative to inflation over a longer period then they are declining overall.

land-hoarding cartels - If you don't like what someone is doing with the land, then you should pay more for it when it's for sale.

Yeah I was going to buy up all the prime development land in this country personally but I spent so much on magic beans I didn't have any money left over.

Like I said, these people have lost their belief in politics.

Politics is about resolving controverted cases. If I don't like what someone is doing with the land I don't have to just write about it in my diary. I can start new political parties, organise campaigns etc.

So in summary you are a classic lower middle class newly minted SF voter who thinks you've come across a magic beans solutions to everything but in fact are unaware of your limited analytical ability.

I have a different opinion because I'm stupid. If I were smarter, our opinions would be identical.

If anyone wants me I'll be on top of my magic beanstalk - there's a great view from up here.

James Brown

Shefwedfan wrote: »

As I said I want to see SF in power, how is Mary Lou getting on with talking to other parties?

Or still just talking to RTÉ?

So all you took from my comment was 'SF', proved my point sadly.
I learned of the SF rally through an RTE piece about Varadkar's reaction. So seems its needed. Beats a tax payer funded spin unit.

The country is more important than the pride of any party.

Cupatae

growleaves wrote: »

It isn't common to all capitalist societies - just to ones in the here and now.

For most of the 20th century, a combination and social and political pressure (including by governments) made it impossible for wealthy interests to impose Gilded Age-style wealth inequalities on Americans and Europeans.

Starting with the '77 boom and bust followed by Reaganomics and 'recovery', that consensus has been replaced by a new econmically liberal one which neither I, nor Irish people generally, are forced to endorse uncritically.



But if real wages aren't rising fast enough relative to inflation over a longer period then they are declining overall.



Yeah I was going to buy up all the prime development land in this country personally but I spent so much on magic beans I didn't have any money left over.

Like I said, these people have lost their belief in politics.

Politics is about resolving controverted cases. If I don't like what someone is doing with the land I don't have to just write about it in my diary. I can start new political parties, organise campaigns etc.



I have a different opinion because I'm stupid. If I were smarter, our opinions would be identical.

If anyone wants me I'll be on top of my magic beanstalk - there's a great view from up here.

Let's see if they can spot the sarcasm using there superior analytic ability.

hatrickpatrick

Shefwedfan wrote: »

That’s the problem, people just voted for Sinn Fein because they felt no other alternative

What you should have done was looked into what a Sinn Fein vote meant

The greens, Labour, independents etc, you have loads of options....even just vote for the best politician in the area, who has done the most for your area in last 5 years

I bet you will find your local SF politician in most areas has done f**k all for anyone but themselves

The Greens and labour have gone into coalition with the neoliberal parties in the past and allowed them to f*ck the country. The leaflet I posted earlier in the thread was shared far and wide by people my age and its entirely argument was trying to form a government which didn't include either of those two, so that no compromises with economic neoliberals would be required. A vote for SF was seen as the only way to make this even remotely possible, for the specific reason that Labour and the Greens can't be trusted to reject the economic right wing.

The only thing that puzzles me is why the SocDems didn't do better on the transfers. That's the only thing about the election result which really did surprise me.

hatrickpatrick

Not the poster you were replying to, but this caught my eye so just throwing in my own two cents:

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Taking those one by one:

Doing the same:

permanent job insecurity - that is common to all modern nations, nothing particular to Ireland or FG.

The modern West in general went down the rabbit hole of neoliberalism in the early 90s and hasn't come back from it yet. The vote for SF and the left in general is an attempt to emerge from that.

declining wages - Not true, wages are rising in Ireland, substantially.

Just not in keeping with the cost of living generally, the cost of housing in particular.

excessive compensation for CEOs - common to all capitalist societies

See above. This vote is an attempt to change that through democratic means.

passing on costs to consumers - huh? Why wouldn't they pass on costs to the consumers, are they charities?

They should be forced to act in a socially responsible manner, and it's government's job to force them to.

land-hoarding cartels - If you don't like what someone is doing with the land, then you should pay more for it when it's for sale.

Or, we should acknowledge that land is a national resource and not allow people to abuse is in this manner, again through democratic policy making.

tax avoidance for profitable banks - a consequence of FF policies up to '07

And FG has allowed it to continue, hence rejecting both FF and FG.

skyrocketing insurance premiums - caused by Irish people making spurious insurance claims and by payouts hugely out of line with other countries. Why are insurance companies leaving Ireland if it's so great.

Caused by the government refusing to change the law around what counts as a business's liability and what counts as someone's own stupidity. FFG have been in power for decades and they have done nothing to address this.

So in summary you are a classic lower middle class newly minted SF voter who thinks you've come across a magic beans solutions to everything but in fact are unaware of your limited analytical ability.

I've never voted for SF before in my life and this time around I gave our local candidate my #2 after Richard Boyd Barrett, specifically because I believes a big enough SF share of seats would allow them to form an exclusively centre to left coalition without including either of the centre to right parties. I suspect many, many people of my generation did the same thing.