Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

davedanon

RobMc59 wrote:

Can you provide a link regarding your claim Britain is exaggerating its military presence and importance? The only details I can find clearly shows that after the US,Britain spends the most as part of NATO which clearly contradicts your assertion.

Clearly you didn't even read my post, or you would have seen that I made no such claim. I stated that posters on here were exaggerating Britain's power and influence. Hope that helps.

First Up

davedanon wrote:

Clearly you didn't even read my post, or you would have seen that I made no such claim. I stated that posters on here were exaggerating Britain's power and influence. Hope that helps.

When you are as desperate for leverage as the Brexiteers you will threaten anything. I'd say the Eurovision Song Contest and Champions League are on their list.

Junkyard Tom

I'd say if you asked the average Brexit fanboy which country had the stronger military, France or Britain, they'd quickly choose 'Britain' when, in reality, they're quite evenly matched. France has always kept a sort of arms-length relationship with the US too whereas Britain has been happy to be the US's junior partner.

theological

davedanon wrote: »

While the UK is ranked 5th in terms of the world's largest economies (but has slipped to 7th, I think I read), by a fairly crude measure of GDP, I make it that the UK's economy accounts for no more than 3.5% of the total world economy.

So, if the EU is 'a collection of tinpot countries', and at least 3 of its constituent economies are as large or larger than Britain's (Germany, France, Italy).....doesn't that make the UK a tinpot country by crypto's measure?

Given the UK makes up less than 1% of the global population 3.5% of global GDP (without checking your source for accuracy) is pretty good going.

davedanon

theological wrote: »

Given the UK makes up less than 1% of the global population 3.5% of global GDP (without checking your source for accuracy) is pretty good going.

Pretty good going how? Compared to what? As a highly-developed G7 country, along with all the others, the UK would have a disproportionate share of the world economy anyway.

theological

For its size in population it is pretty good. Do the maths. Less than 1% of the population with a 3.5% share of GDP. That's punching above its weight. The UK is still a major world economy on these numbers so I don't know why you're so interested in quibbling over it.

davedanon

3.5% share off 1% of the population reflects nothing more than the fact that the UK is a first world country (which has benefited immensely from EU membership, by the by) and therefore has more economic activity per capita than other countries, eg third-world, etc. Your single data point means nothing in isolation.

But by any metric, 3.5% of anything is not 'major'.

cryptocurrency

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I'd say if you asked the average Brexit fanboy which country had the stronger military, France or Britain, they'd quickly choose 'Britain' when, in reality, they're quite evenly matched. France has always kept a sort of arms-length relationship with the US too whereas Britain has been happy to be the US's junior partner.

You clearly don't know much about the armed forces of either country or militaries in general.

Stick to what ever stupid site you've been reading benchmarking both forces like they are inject printers.

cryptocurrency

theological wrote: »

For its size in population it is pretty good. Do the maths. Less than 1% of the population with a 3.5% share of GDP. That's punching above its weight. The UK is still a major world economy on these numbers so I don't know why you're so interested in quibbling over it.

He is also still ignoring soft power and global cultural influence. None of the EU nations he is so make to declare love for come anywhere even close on soft power.

Tinpot, the lot of them.

davedanon

https://www.businessinsider.com/these-are-the-25-most-powerful-militaries-in-europe-2018-11?r=US&IR=T#5-germany-overall-ranking-10-21

No doubt business insider have no clue compared to someone with extensive military experience in 'the colonies', but Britain, France, Germany & Italy have comparable military budgets according to this, and France is rated ahead of the UK. Also, no doubt the remnants of the empire scattered around the globe necessitate more of a military presence, bases etc for the brits.

davedanon

cryptocurrency wrote: »

He is also still ignoring soft power and global cultural influence. None of the EU nations he is so make to declare love for come anywhere even close on soft power.

Tinpot, the lot of them.

If by 'global cultural influence', you mean Brexit uniting the world in collective mirth at the absolute clownshow the UK has become, then yes. Also, what sort of sublimated self-loathing causes an Irishman (presumably) to fawn so over our former oppressors, hmmm?

Padre_Pio

theological wrote: »

Given the UK makes up less than 1% of the global population 3.5% of global GDP (without checking your source for accuracy) is pretty good going.

Considering 16% of the global population have no access to electricity, it's not that good.

The UK has 13 times the population of Ireland, but only 6 times more GDP.

theological

davedanon wrote: »

3.5% share off 1% of the population reflects nothing more than the fact that the UK is a first world country (which has benefited immensely from EU membership, by the by) and therefore has more economic activity per capita than other countries, eg third-world, etc. Your single data point means nothing in isolation.

But by any metric, 3.5% of anything is not 'major'.

For a single country, it is a big share. And given that the world's population stands at 7.7bn the UK's population is less than 1%. That's punching above its weight. It remains one of the biggest economies in the world with this aside.

GDP willy waving aside, I question the real benefit of EU membership to the UK in the current decade. I could see that in the 1970's the world was a different place and more economic activity was confined in Europe, but I don't see the benefit of EU membership to the UK today particularly as it was a net contributor and the money that came back to it from the EU was effectively UK money anyway.

The arguments for leaving and taking back control are stronger to me than the arguments for staying in at this stage on pretty much every angle from political to economic.

The only real reason I voted to remain in the EU in 2016 was that I believed the fear-mongering in the lead up to the referendum. So far the fear-mongering was unfounded, particularly the treasury forecasts about an emergency budget and an economic shock and a recession within weeks!

cryptocurrency

davedanon wrote: »

https://www.businessinsider.com/these-are-the-25-most-powerful-militaries-in-europe-2018-11?r=US&IR=T#5-germany-overall-ranking-10-21

No doubt business insider have no clue compared to someone with extensive military experience in 'the colonies', but Britain, France, Germany & Italy have comparable military budgets according to this, and France is rated ahead of the UK. Also, no doubt the remnants of the empire scattered around the globe necessitate more of a military presence, bases etc for the brits.

yep, you fell right into that. Budgets, not operational experince, intelligence networks, deterrents...nope, you jumped staight on a simple raw budget figure.

Please don't ever talk to me on this topic again, this is ridiculous.

Can you compare Italy with Israel while you are at it.

Junkyard Tom

cryptocurrency wrote: »

You clearly don't know much about the armed forces of either country or militaries in general.

I'm highly trained to use google.

Stick to what ever stupid site you've been reading benchmarking both forces like they are inject printers.

Indeed the French build a native multi-role fighter named the Dassualt Rafale - you've probably never heard of it.

The British? They have to buy the American F35 or European Tornado (these are the names of military aircraft if you need to google them).

Padre_Pio

theological wrote: »

The arguments for leaving and taking back control are stronger to me than the arguments for staying in at this stage on pretty much every angle from political to economic.

The only real reason I voted to remain in the EU in 2016 was that I believed the fear-mongering in the lead up to the referendum. So far the fear-mongering was unfounded, particularly the treasury forecasts about an emergency budget and an economic shock and a recession within weeks!

What are the economic benefits to Brexit?
Where is the evidence that Brexit will benefit the economy in the long or short term?

cryptocurrency

cryptocurrency wrote: »

yep, you fell right into that. Budgets, not operational experince, intelligence networks, deterrents...nope, you jumped staight on a simple raw budget figure.

Do you think leaving the EU and the various associated organisations will strengthen these supposed advantages, or weaken them?

Padre_Pio

Padre_Pio wrote: »

What are the economic benefits to Brexit?
Where is the evidence that Brexit will benefit the economy in the long or short term?

How many times has this question been asked and ignored at this point?

Padre_Pio

DubInMeath wrote: »

How many times has this question been asked and ignored at this point?

Ah I throw it up every few weeks for the craic.

We all know Brexit is about anti-immigration, England for the English, all that.

Padre_Pio

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Ah I throw it up every few weeks for the craic.

We all know Brexit is about anti-immigration, England for the English, all that.

Didn't mean just this thread, it's been asked in the politics thread also and has yet to be answered.

Interesting however that the folks on this thread are either English living in Ireland, or Irish living in the U.K. and haven't really got to deal with the outcome if it goes tits up.

The English for the English motivation for some leave voters isn't really going to work out either.

RobMc59

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I'm highly trained to use google.



Indeed the French build a native multi-role fighter named the Dassualt Rafale - you've probably never heard of it.

The British? They have to buy the American F35 or European Tornado (these are the names of military aircraft if you need to google them).

Tornado retired now but jointly developed by the UK as is the current euro front line fighter the tempest which by all accounts is a cracking multi role plane.

cryptocurrency

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I'm highly trained to use google.



Indeed the French build a native multi-role fighter named the Dassualt Rafale - you've probably never heard of it.

The British? They have to buy the American F35 or European Tornado (these are the names of military aircraft if you need to google them).

I have, and it's not very good. I think the F35Bs will do just grand.

cryptocurrency

RobMc59 wrote: »

Tornado retired now but jointly developed by the UK as is the current euro front line fighter the tempest which by all accounts is a cracking multi role plane.

Not all accounts at all.

cryptocurrency

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you think leaving the EU and the various associated organisations will strengthen these supposed advantages, or weaken them?

strenghten them, hugely

Junkyard Tom

cryptocurrency wrote: »

I have, and it's not very good. I think the F35Bs will do just grand.

You're missing the point, old bean. The Americans could cut off Britain's access to its F35 if Britain did something the US didn't like - in many ways that demonstrates the limits of 'sovereignty' in a globalised world.

Padre_Pio

cryptocurrency wrote: »

strenghten them, hugely

How?
Evidence?
Facts?
Numbers?

davedanon

cryptocurrency wrote:

Please don't ever talk to me on this topic again, this is ridiculous.

cryptocurrency wrote:

yep, you fell right into that. Budgets, not operational experince, intelligence networks, deterrents...nope, you jumped staight on a simple raw budget figure.

Fell into what? Your giant vat of bombast unsupported by anything within an asses roar of fact? You're trying to say the British Army is more battle-hardened than any other european force? Then how come it hasn't been on the winning side of a war in 75 years? (I'm excluding the Falklands of course). Even the IRA beat them like a gong.

First Up

Are there people here who expect military strength to be a factor in the UK's trade negotiations with the EU?

RobMc59

First Up wrote: »

Are there people here who expect military strength to be a factor in the UK's trade negotiations with the EU?

I believe this line of discussion arose with davedanon saying the UK was weak militarily.

fash

theological wrote: »

For a single country, it is a big share. And given that the world's population stands at 7.7bn the UK's population is less than 1%. That's punching above its weight. It remains one of the biggest economies in the world with this aside.

GDP willy waving aside, I question the real benefit of EU membership to the UK in the current decade. I could see that in the 1970's the world was a different place and more economic activity was confined in Europe, but I don't see the benefit of EU membership to the UK today particularly as it was a net contributor and the money that came back to it from the EU was effectively UK money anyway.

Complaining about the money paid by the UK to the EU (and the "saving" made by no longer being in the Eu") is like complaining about the price of the bus ticket to get you to work and the saving made by being unemployed.
Sure it cost some money- but similar enough to the amount that will be paid for extra customs agents, public servants and their private sector counterparts alone. That is aside from losing privileged access to the single market, the ability to freely work and provide services to the EU, the benefit of the EU's trade deals and the ability to control and speak on the behalf of an economy of 500 million of the wealthiest people on Earth - now that was real "control".

The arguments for leaving and taking back control are stronger to me than the arguments for staying in at this stage on pretty much every angle from political to economic.

Please explain the economic benefits in particular. I'd love to see anything from any competent economist suggesting Brexit won't be a wonderful to watch and farcical catastrophe. If you could explain any political benefits, I would also like to hear.