Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

fash

cryptocurrency wrote: »

The EU is rubbish. The whole saga has shown it up for the backward looking, protectionist, anti-Democratic club that it is..there is only benefits for brexit UK, nothing else

"Protectionist"? Aside from some small states which can have a monocultural economy, it has some of the most open markets in the world and it has the most trade deals of any entity in history. "Anti-democratic" - it is far more democratic than the UK - or even the US presidential system.
"Backward looking" - compared to what? The racist UK? Maga US? Please.
You really need to come back to reality some time.

eagle eye

First Up wrote:

Have as many issues as you want but stop pretending Brexit makes economic sense.
Brexit is rooted in 19th century nationalism. Nothing else.

You know as much as I don't want Brexit I don't make statements like this. You are predicting the future here which is impossible to do right now.
This is the side of the anti-Brexit group which I dislike greatly. They were scaremongering with this stuff and they are still going on with it.
It's scary times for us all because we don't know how much this is going to hurt us here in Ireland either.
You need to wake up though and not be stupid enough to think that you know how things will play out. This could end the EU, the loss of 15% of GDP is massive.
I'm not predicting what will happen, all I hope is that we in Ireland are on the right side of it.

Donald Trump

theological wrote: »

Your comments about soup are disgraceful by the by.

Bit close to the bone maybe?

theological

fash wrote: »

"Protectionist"? Aside from some small states which can have a monocultural economy, it has some of the most open markets in the world and it has the most trade deals of any entity in history. "Anti-democratic" - it is far more democratic than the UK - or even the US presidential system.
"Backward looking" - compared to what? The racist UK? Maga US? Please.
You really need to come back to reality some time.

The UK is one of the most racially tolerant countries in Europe. So I don't know where you're coming from in respect to this. Please compare and contrast to racial attitudes in countries like Italy and come back to me.

The EU tariff regime in many ways could be described as protectionist. Not that protectionism is always wrong but it is a fair remark in respect to how the EU economy works in various areas.

It could be helpful also if we stopped personalising our comments. The discussion isn't about cryptocurrency or me but about the future of the UK outside of the EU and vice versa.

You think it will be catastrophic and I don't.

Donald Trump wrote: »

Bit close to the bone maybe?

No it just shows your disgraceful attitude to bringing an incredibly tragic event in Ireland's history into a discussion as a rhetorical flourish.

fash

eagle eye wrote: »

You need to wake up though and not be stupid enough to think that you know how things will play out. This could end the EU, the loss of 15% of GDP is massive.

How would the "loss" of 15% affect the EU - and affect it so badly that the EU could "end"? If that is the case, surely the fact that the EU has gained more than 15% through the accession of Eastern Europe guarantees that the EU can never fail ever?

KildareP

http://news.sky.com/story/top-home-office-civil-servant-sir-philip-rutnam-quits-and-will-sue-government-11946136

All is not well in the Home Office.

I do hope Ms Patel has grasped the meaning of “counter” now or, if the HO decides to countersue, she may well end up suing heraelf...

Irishmale0399

theological wrote: »

At the moment I mostly drive on British roads that my taxes contribute to and use public transport that I pay for every year. Any objections to this?

No problem with it at all....but when you are using the UK infrastructure which you contribute too why not apply for the great blue passport and cut all ties from the EU?? Man up and buy in to the great British future......Or are you yet another one who comes online, complains about the EU and still wants to enjoy its passport, freedom of movement, medical care within member states.......as I have said to a lot of people recently, if you love the British empire and Brexit so much why not cut all EU ties and stay in the great UK...

The cabal running the UK at the min are the most sinister in years. Patel, Gove, Cummings, Johnson, Rabb.

Donald Trump

theological wrote: »

No it just shows your disgraceful attitude to bringing an incredibly tragic event in Ireland's history into a discussion as a rhetorical flourish.

It's ok. You are entitled to rationalise your feelings and actions in whatever manner works for you. That is the nature of the human condition. It can of course sometimes be difficult to do this in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, but such is life.

First Up

eagle eye wrote:

You know as much as I don't want Brexit I don't make statements like this. You are predicting the future here which is impossible to do right now. This is the side of the anti-Brexit group which I dislike greatly. They were scaremongering with this stuff and they are still going on with it. It's scary times for us all because we don't know how much this is going to hurt us here in Ireland either. You need to wake up though and not be stupid enough to think that you know how things will play out. This could end the EU, the loss of 15% of GDP is massive. I'm not predicting what will happen, all I hope is that we in Ireland are on the right side of it.

Statements like what?

Junkyard Tom

Deleted User wrote: »

there's no point.

They've already won in their heads - they just need to keep going in the current direction even if that does result in a return to subsistence farming. There's a sort of North Korea type cult thing about Brexit, except in some ways it's worse as the people actually have a choice.

theological

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

No problem with it at all....but when you are using the UK infrastructure which you contribute too why not apply for the great blue passport and cut all ties from the EU?? Man up and buy in to the great British future......Or are you yet another one who comes online, complains about the EU and still wants to enjoy its passport, freedom of movement, medical care within member states.......as I have said to a lot of people recently, if you love the British empire and Brexit so much why not cut all EU ties and stay in the great UK...

Or I can keep my citizenship and be a Eurosceptic. Some of these remarks are silly.

There's something slightly perverse in the argument of suggesting that because I have the "wrong" opinion that I'm somehow less Irish than anyone else.

Leroy42

theological wrote: »

Or I can keep my citizenship and be a Eurosceptic. Some of these remarks are silly.

There's something slightly perverse in the argument of suggesting that because I have the "wrong" opinion that I'm somehow less Irish than anyone else.

But therein lies the fundamental issue. Sure you have your opinion, perfectly fine, but not when the future of people is decided on the back of it despite all the expert advice being against it.

Brexit is completely based on opinion, no facts, no plan, nothing to measure success against. 4 years after the vote, no actual benefits have been articulated. It's all still vague notions of sovereignty and taking back control without anyone being able to explain what the problem was or what this solution is.

Irishmale0399

theological wrote: »

Or I can keep my citizenship and be a Eurosceptic. Some of these remarks are silly.

There's something slightly perverse in the argument of suggesting that because I have the "wrong" opinion that I'm somehow less Irish than anyone else.

Would you be of the opinion that;
1. Ireland would be in a better place without ever joining the EU??


2. Do you really believe that the promises made during the Brexit campaign will become reality?? Have they started to invest in the NHS yet?? How much was it they wanted to pump in monthly???
Have they showed anything yet to suggest that they will achieve anything??? As I see it, it is all hot air coming from London......time will tell.

threeball

theological wrote: »

Or I can keep my citizenship and be a Eurosceptic. Some of these remarks are silly.

There's something slightly perverse in the argument of suggesting that because I have the "wrong" opinion that I'm somehow less Irish than anyone else.

You're the equivalent of an anti-vaxxer who gets the flu jab annually "just incase".

Joe_ Public

I think in their more humble, truthful moments some brexiteers will admit there is little or no economic upside to brexit and never was. Or, if there is, it is somewhere indeterminate down the line, some 40-50 years hence, when the fact remains unclear environmental factors will dictate world economies as much as anything at that point.

But for some vague reassertion of sovereign greatness, some latent feeling of a restored great power holding sway like it did in a heralded past, they will cheerfully accept a hit for that. They will make some bad decisions but at least they are their own bad decisions to take. Not all feel that way perhaps, but i bet many do.

theological

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

Would you be of the opinion that;
1. Ireland would be in a better place without ever joining the EU??


2. Do you really believe that the promises made during the Brexit campaign will become reality?? Have they started to invest in the NHS yet?? How much was it they wanted to pump in monthly???
Have they showed anything yet to suggest that they will achieve anything??? As I see it, it is all hot air coming from London......time will tell.

1. No.

2. The Conservatives pledged an additional £34bn for NHS spending in December. I suspect that will be followed through into the budget. So far I have zero remorse for voting for them. Parliament has a strong majority and there is a strong government. The big test of this government is this year and what they do. I'm willing to give them that grace.

The alternative of voting for Labour was unthinkable for me in the election.

Asking about whether or not the Brexit promises are fulfilled before the negotiations are over is a bit premature. There's a lot still to see. At least the UK is formally outside of the EU now.

threeball wrote: »

You're the equivalent of an anti-vaxxer who gets the flu jab annually "just incase".

This is childish reasoning. There's no reason why I should give up my birth citizenship just because you think I have the "wrong" opinion.

Stop personalising things and stick to the argument.

Professor Moriarty

theological wrote: »

1. No.

2. The Conservatives pledged an additional £34bn for NHS spending in December. I suspect that will be followed through into the budget. So far I have zero remorse for voting for them. Parliament has a strong majority and there is a strong government. The big test of this government is this year and what they do. I'm willing to give them that grace.

The alternative of voting for Labour was unthinkable for me in the election.

Asking about whether or not the Brexit promises are fulfilled before the negotiations are over is a bit premature. There's a lot still to see. At least the UK is formally outside of the EU now.


This is childish reasoning. There's no reason why I should give up my birth citizenship just because you think I have the "wrong" opinion.

Stop personalising things and stick to the argument.

Where will the Tories get the extra 34 billion?

First Up

theological wrote:

Asking about whether or not the Brexit promises are fulfilled before the negotiations are over is a bit premature. There's a lot still to see. At least the UK is formally outside of the EU now.

What are you expecting them to negotiate?

Irishmale0399

theological wrote: »

1. No.

2. The Conservatives pledged an additional £34bn for NHS spending in December.

Asking about whether or not the Brexit promises are fulfilled before the negotiations are over is a bit premature. There's a lot still to see. At least the UK is formally outside of the EU now.

1. Where are they going to get the money from to invest in the NHS??


2. What do the UK have that the EU is dependant on?? What can the UK pressure the EU with when they sit at the table to negociate the trade deal??? What do the UK need that the EU have???

Furthermore....do you really think Trump, China or whoever is going to do the UK a favour and offer them better terms and conditions than the EU?? If they do it will be at a very high cost to the UK citizens or economy because these countries are no charities and are only interesting in their own needs.

theological

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

1. Where are they going to get the money from to invest in the NHS??


2. What do the UK have that the EU is dependant on?? What can the UK pressure the EU with when they sit at the table to negociate the trade deal??? What do the UK need that the EU have???

Furthermore....do you really think Trump, China or whoever is going to do the UK a favour and offer them better terms and conditions than the EU?? If they do it will be at a very high cost to the UK citizens or economy because these countries are no charities and are only interesting in their own needs.

1. I'm not the Chancellor (thankfully!) but the UK's debt to GDP ratio is at a level where some modest borrowing could be accepted if needed. It seems like the Tories plan to increase the tax thresholds again on either side. Admittedly I'm not opposed to leaving them where they are and using some of the additional revenue from this. Given it is multiyear spending it won't be £34bn in a single year also.
Short answer: wait until Rishi Sunak explains it in more depth. I don't see why the spending isn't possible.

2. I've been through some of these in earlier posts. Perhaps the strongest one is the trade deficit with the EU. I don't know why you're asking me to explain to you what the UK needs from the EU also. You can read the UK negotiating document I linked to yesterday morning to see what the UK want themselves. It's all in the open.

3. I don't expect anyone to do the UK a favour. I think there is a good opportunity for a mutually beneficial deal with the US that opens up the US market to British investment and the UK market to American investors. Why don't you? It seems like a win win on both sides. America is the single biggest country on Britain's export list. Liberalising trade could increase that business further.

CelticRambler

theological wrote: »

America is the single biggest country on Britain's export list ...

That old refrain: America isn't a single country; from an internal trade point of view, it's not as integrated or consolidated as the EU, and externally, has fewer international Trade Agreements than the EU.

But let's try for a "third time lucky": what three specific areas do you want/expect to see agreed between the UK and the US for new and improved trade terms?

fash

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I think in their more humble, truthful moments some brexiteers will admit there is little or no economic upside to brexit and never was. Or, if there is, it is somewhere indeterminate down the line, some 40-50 years hence, when the fact remains unclear environmental factors will dictate world economies as much as anything at that point.

But for some vague reassertion of sovereign greatness, some latent feeling of a restored great power holding sway like it did in a heralded past, they will cheerfully accept a hit for that. They will make some bad decisions but at least they are their own bad decisions to take. Not all feel that way perhaps, but i bet many do.

What's funny though is that the voters voted to take back control - none of it goes to them - given the dysfunctional UK system, it merely gathers at the executive who can and do ignore whatever the voters want - then lie and feed them rubbish and spin. So economic nonsense and political nonsense.

fash

theological wrote: »

I think there is a good opportunity for a mutually beneficial deal with the US that opens up the US market to British investment and the UK market to American investors. Why don't you? It seems like a win win on both sides. America is the single biggest country on Britain's export list. Liberalising trade could increase that business further.

Do you accept all of economic analyses - including the one relied upon by the UK government- which indicates that the benefit to the UK is approx. 0.2% of economic growth?

First Up

theological wrote:

3. I don't expect anyone to do the UK a favour. I think there is a good opportunity for a mutually beneficial deal with the US that opens up the US market to British investment and the UK market to American investors. Why don't you? It seems like a win win on both sides. America is the single biggest country on Britain's export list. Liberalising trade could increase that business further.

There is nothing stopping the US or UK investing in each other. It has nothing to do with EU membership.

threeball

Coronavirus is a Godsend for Boris. He will fob off any downturn of economic fortunes on the impact of the outbreak and the lemmings will suck it up.

cryptocurrency

You know the EU are going demented about Brexit when they start making threats about nasty battles. 1. They don't have the strength or capabilities for such battles and 2. they are no so frustrated that it's all going south for them that this is all they have.

They are making more brexiteers by the day

cryptocurrency

threeball wrote: »

Coronavirus is a Godsend for Boris. He will fob off any downturn of economic fortunes on the impact of the outbreak and the lemmings will suck it up.

and in the EU, which will have an even poorer performing ecnomy, what is the deal there

davedanon

crypto is the comical Ali of Brexit.

Comical crypto.

cryptocurrency

davedanon wrote: »

crypto is the comical Ali of Brexit.

Comical crypto.

No, thats that FG spokesman, Neale. He is full on comical Ali.