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Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

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    #1712
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Surely the simplest solution is reduced access in return for not implementing EU regulations.

    If only there was the time to negotiate it.


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    #1713
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Deleted User wrote:
    If only there was the time to negotiate it.


    They can operate on WTO terms in the meantime. (Unless they feel WTO membership impinges on national sovereignty too.)


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    #1714
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    First Up wrote: »
    They can operate on WTO terms in the meantime. (Unless they feel WTO membership impinges on national sovereignty too.)

    No doubt the most favoured nation thing will be the 2021 battle for sovereignty.


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    #1715
    davedanon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭davedanon


    fash wrote: »
    Simple: double the distance, half the trade. It is the rule of gravity in economics. The UK exports more than 6 times as much as Canada and 3 times as much as Japan to the EU. Given the fact it is 21 miles away only, the UK's capacity to exploit and undermine the EU's single market is vastly greater. This is aside from the fact that the UK government, Brexiters and the Tory party have repeatedly stated that exploiting the EU was precisely their aim.

    Britain as a sort of modern-day pirate/buccaneer, ruling the waves and preying on a cowering, timorous EU. It's no accident that the Brexite(e)rs use this sort of language.


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    #1716
    davedanon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭davedanon


    https://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2020/02/brexit-is-going-feral.html

    Resistance is futile. Brexit will be done. You must believe.


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    #1717
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    The UK wants more from the EU and Canada and Japan. Surely the simplest solution is reduced access in return for not implementing EU regulations.

    A Canada arrangement would be reduced access. That's the point. It is a quota based arrangement and it means less access than for example agreeing to be in the single market or customs union.

    The UK negotiating document is pretty clear on what they are looking for.


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    #1718
    moritz1234
    Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭moritz1234


    davedanon wrote: »
    https://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2020/02/brexit-is-going-feral.html

    Resistance is futile. Brexit will be done. You must believe.


    Great article - thanks.


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    #1719
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,589 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    theological wrote: »
    A Canada arrangement would be reduced access. That's the point. It is a quota based arrangement and it means less access than for example agreeing to be in the single market or customs union.

    The UK negotiating document is pretty clear on what they are looking for.

    The UK is going to be a third country. Without an EEA-type deal, reduced access is the consequence of leaving the EU.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #1720
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    The UK is going to be a third country. Without an EEA-type deal, reduced access is the consequence of leaving the EU.

    For the second time. The Canada deal is reduced access. It is quota based for exports.

    That's what is in the UK negotiating document.

    The UK doesn't want to have an EEA style relationship with the EU because it wants more control.
    CelticRambler wrote: »
    No measure of desire is going to change the UK's proximity to the EU: it's a geographical fact. For more than two thousand years, the island's economy has been closely entwined with that of continental Europe, and ever moreso as the centuries progressed and the great European powers realised that they were "better together" instead of constantly snapping at each other's heels.

    Relational proximity and geographical proximity are two different things.

    The UK doesn't want the same relational proximity to the EU as Norway or Switzerland for example.


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    #1721
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    theological wrote:
    For the second time. The Canada deal is reduced access. It is quota based for exports.


    Quotas are a maximum, not a minimum and they apply better to the sort of bulk commodities that Canada sells than to the hundreds/thousands of items the UK sells to customers in the EU.

    A Canada style trade agreement will wipe out a significant part of the UK's trade in time-critical goods going into complex supply chains. It is an awful model for the UK

    Do you understand anything about how international trade works? Because from your posts here, it looks like you don't


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    #1722
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    First Up wrote: »
    Quotas are a maximum, not a minimum and they apply better to the sort of bulk commodities that Canada sells than to the hundreds/thousands of items the UK sells to customers in the EU.

    A Canada style trade agreement will wipe out a significant part of the UK's trade in time-critical goods going into complex supply chains. It is an awful model for the UK

    Do you understand anything about how international trade works? Because from your posts here, it looks like you don't

    Nice touch. I didn't say quotas were a minimum. Perhaps you should respond to what I actually say rather than what you would like me to say. That might be helpful.

    I'm agreeing with you. The Canada arrangement is more restrictive but it allows more control.


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    #1723
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    theological wrote:
    Nice touch. I didn't say quotas were a minimum. Perhaps you should respond to what I actually say rather than what you would like me to say. That might be helpful.

    I know what you say. I'm trying to figure out what you mean.

    Your presentation of quotas as a solution suggested to me that you think trade "deals" require countries to buy from each other, which they don't.

    UK exporters will still have to persuade customers in the EU to buy from them and that is going to be harder when borders and paperwork are inserted into the negotiations. Add in border delays and it gets harder still.

    A Canada style "deal" solves none of that. It reduces tariffs but nothing else. It works for Canada because the nature of Canada-EU trade is very different to UK-EU trade.

    Membership of the Single Market opened all sorts of doors for UK industry. Leaving it shuts some of them - firmly - and there is no compensating plus side anywhere.


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    #1724
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    I didn't present it as a solution. You need to read my posts
    I was responding to ancapailldorcha who said that a Canada deal would reduce access. I agree. It will. It is a trade off. Ensure continuation of a large portion in trade with the EU on liberal terms while regaining control for other FTAs.

    Please respond to what I say rather than what you imagine I say.


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    #1725
    fash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,271 ✭✭✭fash


    theological wrote: »
    A Canada arrangement would be reduced access. That's the point. It is a quota based arrangement and it means less access than for example agreeing to be in the single market or customs union.

    The UK negotiating document is pretty clear on what they are looking for.
    Except that:
    1. never in the history of humanity has something that complex been negotiated in 6 months - which the UK wants - it takes 10 years.
    2. The UK is sitting 21 miles from the EU - even less if you include NI. Economic gravity " double the distance, half the trade" means that without suitable LPFs to ensure fair trade, the UK will (as it has repeatedly asserted that it intends) undermine and destabilise the EU's single market - the very purpose of Brexit.


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    #1726
    PeadarCo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    theological wrote: »
    Nice touch. I didn't say quotas were a minimum. Perhaps you should respond to what I actually say rather than what you would like me to say. That might be helpful.

    I'm agreeing with you. The Canada arrangement is more restrictive but it allows more control.

    But Boris doesn't want a Canada style deal because it means handing over economic control to the EU. To be honest when it comes to trade deals and Brexit in general the UK government comes across as clueless. Any deal it does with any trading block is going to have some method of enforcement. Both sides in any agreement need a way of updating a deal and resolving issues otherwise any party can just turn around and tear it up. The more complex and detailed the agreement the more complex the resolution methods. EU institutions being a prime example of how complex resolution methods can get. So when Boris talks about complete economic independence what is saying is that he wants to withdraw from the WTO and have no trade agreements with any other trade block because naturally any deal will limit the UKs economic independence. However what's more likely is that Boris and his supporters are clueless of the compromises trade agreements(even basic ones) actually entail.

    On the point of a Canada deal the exact terms of the Canada deal were never on the table. The idea that the Canada deal would suit either the UK or EU is fantasy. The UK is not Canada. The fact this point has to be even made says it all. A Canada style deal is on the table. However it'll take a couple of years to negotiate.


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    #1727
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    The UK Government negotiation document I quoted from and linked to this morning clearly states they are looking for an arrangement similar to CETA, South Korea and Japan.

    Unless you've got extra information for me.


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    #1728
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    theological wrote:
    I didn't present it as a solution. You need to read my posts I was responding to ancapailldorcha who said that a Canada deal would reduce access. I agree. It will. It is a trade off. Ensure continuation of a large portion in trade with the EU on liberal terms while regaining control for other FTAs.


    Please respond to what I say rather than what you imagine I say.

    Have you a list of the places where UK companies are going to replace - no exceed - the business they are going to lose by leaving the Single Market?

    If you can elaborate on where and how this "trade off" is going to result in net benefits for UK industry, I promise to respond to exactly what you say.


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    #1729
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,507 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    [HTML][/HTML]
    theological wrote: »
    Nice touch. I didn't say quotas were a minimum. Perhaps you should respond to what I actually say rather than what you would like me to say. That might be helpful.

    I'm agreeing with you. The Canada arrangement is more restrictive but it allows more control.

    But control of what and what is the cost of this control?

    Control of our laws to set our own standards apparently. But they want higher standards, which no EU stops them from doing.

    Take back control, control our own destiny etc, all sounds great, but what is the trade off?

    And if is is worth it, which nobody can actually say since the UK won't actually release the reports, then why aren't the UK telling people why it is. These are the costs but this what we gain. If it is so clear, then put it out there.

    You are arguing for something that you can't possibly understand (and by that I don't mean you lack an ability to understand, just that there is no information on which for you to claim it is worth it)


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    #1730
    CelticRambler
    Registered Users Posts: 6,728 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    theological wrote: »
    Relational proximity and geographical proximity are two different things.

    The UK doesn't want the same relational proximity to the EU as Norway or Switzerland for example.

    They're not though: people build socio-economic relations primarily with the people who are geographically closest to them, and for very good reasons. In all the whooping and cheering about Brexit, no Brexiter has ever set out a detailed, costed analysis of how British customers are going to replace all their EU imports with non-EU imports, or how they're going to convince their EU customers to continue to buy British exports when doing so requires more hassle than getting the same product (or service) from Japan.

    If you don't agree, why not answer the question I asked you a few days ago: what are the top three items you want/expect to see agreed in the great new UK-US trade deal [coming soon to an island near us], and what will be the financial cost or benefit of same?


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    #1731
    PeadarCo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    theological wrote: »
    The UK Government negotiation document I quoted from and linked to this morning clearly states they are looking for an arrangement similar to CETA, South Korea and Japan.

    Unless you've got extra information for me.

    The thing does the current UK really understand what's involved in negotiating the deals they are talking about. Remember one high profile brexit until recently wasn't fimilar with the Dover Calais route and its importance. We are also dealing with a UK government that seems to think its in charge of Canada not the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Other Brexiters thought that the UK could leave the EU but stay in both the SM and CU. I can keep going with list. Remember it's lead by a person who said F*** business. You know the businesses the UK government is negotiating on behalf of.

    So yes the UK is looking at a trade deal with the Japan but does it really understand what's required. No it doesn't and there a long list of examples to back that up.


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    #1732
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    The "trade off" (which Theo may eventually and reluctantly admit) is the loss of the tangible advantages for British industry in their closest and largest market, in exchange for as yet unspecified advantages in smaller and more distant markets. This dubious pill will be sweetened for consumption by the gullible with the meaningless slogan of "taking back control".

    If anyone wants to explain what they will take control of, and how long suffering British industry will emerge the stronger from this ideological tragi-comedy, I'll be all ears.


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    #1733
    cryptocurrency
    Registered Users Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭cryptocurrency


    First Up wrote: »
    The "trade off" (which Theo may eventually and reluctantly admit) is the loss of the tangible advantages for British industry in their closest and largest market, in exchange for as yet unspecified advantages in smaller and more distant markets. This dubious pill will be sweetened for consumption by the gullible with the meaningless slogan of "taking back control".

    If anyone wants to explain what they will take control of, and how long suffering British industry will emerge the stronger from this ideological tragi-comedy, I'll be all ears.

    The EU is rubbish. The whole saga has shown it up for the backward looking, protectionist, anti-Democratic club that it is..there is only benefits for brexit UK, nothing else


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    #1734
    Irishmale0399
    Registered Users Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Irishmale0399


    cryptocurrency wrote: »
    The EU is rubbish. The whole saga has shown it up for the backward looking, protectionist, anti-Democratic club that it is..there is only benefits for brexit UK, nothing else


    Have you given back your EU passport yet??? Applied for the British one??


    Because you seem to hate everything the EU stands for, surely you will stick to your principles and be man enough to do it. See it as your wee protest...when your at it sell your EU based assets, wouldnt want anything to do with it either, sure the EU market is going to go belly up once the UK have their deal. Wouldnt want a passport or property in the EU at all.


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    #1735
    KildareP
    Registered Users Posts: 1,455 ✭✭✭KildareP


    cryptocurrency wrote: »
    The EU is rubbish. The whole saga has shown it up for the backward looking, protectionist, anti-Democratic club that it is..there is only benefits for brexit UK, nothing else

    Backward looking - who wants to cut ties with all its closest neighbours?
    Protectionist - is that a bad thing, what is “taking back control” if it isn’t protectionist?
    Anti-democratic - save the Dominic Raab speak, Boris wants to renege on the “oven ready deal” he built his entire campaign on. What’s the will of people looking like this hour?


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    #1736
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Irishmale0399 wrote: »
    Have you given back your EU passport yet??? Applied for the British one??


    Because you seem to hate everything the EU stands for, surely you will stick to your principles and be man enough to do it. See it as your wee protest...when your at it sell your EU based assets, wouldnt want anything to do with it either, sure the EU market is going to go belly up once the UK have their deal. Wouldnt want a passport or property in the EU at all.

    What an interesting response.

    I know that I'm not cryptocurrency, but I'm a citizen of Ireland and identify with that more strongly than the nebulous concept of European citizenship.

    In the event that I no longer had residency rights in the UK I might apply for citizenship but until then I'm not particularly exercised to do so.

    I can have issues with the European Union as an institution without wanting to sign away my nationality.


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    #1737
    Irishmale0399
    Registered Users Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Irishmale0399


    theological wrote: »
    What an interesting response.

    I know that I'm not cryptocurrency, but I'm a citizen of Ireland and identify with that more strongly than the nebulous concept of European citizenship.

    In the event that I no longer had residency rights in the UK I might apply for citizenship but until then I'm not particularly exercised to do so.

    I can have issues with the European Union as an institution without wanting to sign away my nationality.


    So you are willing to use the benifits of EU membership but you find the community sh1te. Do you use Irish motorways?? Toll bridges?? School/Uni facilities?? All of which have mostly been part or fully funded with EU money.


    Bit hypocritical if you ask me......


    As for crypto...he has clearly stated he spends more time in the UK, clearly hates everything EU related...so why not take the British citizenship and get on with it. People like yourself and crypto remind me of a lad who works with me here on mainland Europe, hates Ireland, feels the EU has done nothing positive for his great Northern Ireland but applied for an Irish passport in March last year so he can work and move freely in the EU he hates......


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    #1738
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    theological wrote:
    I can have issues with the European Union as an institution without wanting to sign away my nationality.


    Have as many issues as you want but stop pretending Brexit makes economic sense.

    Brexit is rooted in 19th century nationalism. Nothing else.


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    #1739
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,141 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    theological wrote: »
    I can have issues with the European Union as an institution without wanting to sign away my nationality.


    The gas thing is that, (even though that concept of the evil EU trying to sign away your nationality is in your head rather than reality), you love your nationality so much that you upped and left and went to live in the UK where you seem to have absorbed a lot of UKIP/Farage style rhetoric.

    Now you are posting on an Irish message board, in support of the UK taking a stupid and selfish action that will have serious consequences for Ireland....and you are acting as cheerleader for those actions :rolleyes:


    I hope that they still do a nice soup.......


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    #1740
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    cryptocurrency wrote: »
    there is only benefits for brexit UK, nothing else

    Absolute statements.. If you had said that you think it will overall benefit the UK, then we could engage in debate. But if you try to tell us there is not a single downside to it, there's no point.


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    #1741
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Irishmale0399 wrote: »
    So you are willing to use the benifits of EU membership but you find the community sh1te. Do you use Irish motorways?? Toll bridges?? School/Uni facilities?? All of which have mostly been part or fully funded with EU money.


    Bit hypocritical if you ask me......


    As for crypto...he has clearly stated he spends more time in the UK, clearly hates everything EU related...so why not take the British citizenship and get on with it. People like yourself and crypto remind me of a lad who works with me here on mainland Europe, hates Ireland, feels the EU has done nothing positive for his great Northern Ireland but applied for an Irish passport in March last year so he can work and move freely in the EU he hates......

    At the moment I mostly drive on British roads that my taxes contribute to and use public transport that I pay for every year. Any objections to this?
    Donald Trump wrote: »
    The gas thing is that, (even though that concept of the evil EU trying to sign away your nationality is in your head rather than reality), you love your nationality so much that you upped and left and went to live in the UK where you seem to have absorbed a lot of UKIP/Farage style rhetoric.

    Do keep up. Other posters were suggesting that cryptocurrency should sign away his nationality. I never said the EU was. I didn't say that the EU was evil. I do support the UK leaving however.

    Do you oppose all emigration or just mine? I make no apology for living a good life in the UK. I'm very thankful for it and the opportunities its given me.

    I guess it's also haram in your ideology to be getting married to a Brit also?
    Donald Trump wrote: »
    Now you are posting on an Irish message board, in support of the UK taking a stupid and selfish action that will have serious consequences for Ireland....and you are acting as cheerleader for those actions :rolleyes:


    I hope that they still do a nice soup.......

    I support leaving the EU and I don't consider it stupid.

    Your comments about soup are disgraceful by the by.


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