Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

Shefwedfan

molloyjh wrote: »

I've seen this "reflects badly on rugby as a whole" thing a few times and must confess I just don't see it. One club consistently cheated for years and one leagues process to monitor and deal with it has been shown to be woefully inadequate. I'm not sure how that reflects on anything other than that team and that leagues processes.

It does, instead of admitting most of what has come from Saracens is

"Well everyone else is at it"
"Or look at XYZ they signed ABC"


It's turned into a pure mud slighting match with Sarries fans pointing the finger at anyone and everyone.....

thomond2006

Jamie George is insisting he's staying with Saracens. In a Lions season I'll believe it when I see it.

Buer

thomond2006 wrote: »

Jamie George is insisting he's staying with Saracens. In a Lions season I'll believe it when I see it.

I wouldn't be surprised. He's a Saracens lifer and has been there since he was a teenager. Some names will leave but I'd say George is one of the most likely test players to stick around.

Burkie1203

thomond2006 wrote: »

Jamie George is insisting he's staying with Saracens. In a Lions season I'll believe it when I see it.

Staying for the love

https://twitter.com/chrisjonespress/status/1228009429246840833?s=19


Wonder will they hit someone for 100 at some stage. Talk that others such as Farrell Itoje are staying too

sydthebeat

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Staying for the love

https://twitter.com/chrisjonespress/status/1228009429246840833?s=19


Wonder will they hit someone for 100 at some stage. Talk that others such as Farrell Itoje are staying too

staying to try to become one of the exempt marquee top paid players i wonder?

Buer

Incredible comments for Vunipola to make in public yesterday. No f*cks given.

Asked if he regrets entering into the arrangements, Vunipola said: "No regrets at all. If I had the choice to do it again, I would do it again knowing what has happened.

"That's no slight at not caring about what has happened to the club, more the fact that I know rugby is important and our careers are short and I want to look ahead a bit.

Bazzo

Buer wrote: »

Incredible comments for Vunipola to make in public yesterday. No f*cks given.

I take it he won't be taking a pay cut and sticking around out of loyalty of the club then.

prawnsambo

Buer wrote: »

Incredible comments for Vunipola to make in public yesterday. No f*cks given.

To be fair, it's his job to maximise his earnings, it was Saracens' job to balance that with the salary cap. They chose not to. Vunipola would most likely have gone elsewhere if he could have got a better offer. And undoubtedly would have. Just maybe not in England.

Buer

prawnsambo wrote: »

To be fair, it's his job to maximise his earnings, it was Saracens' job to balance that with the salary cap. They chose not to. Vunipola would most likely have gone elsewhere if he could have got a better offer. And undoubtedly would have. Just maybe not in England.

Not blaming Vunipola at all for what transpired.

I just think he's incredibly naive and silly to publicly admit he'd do the same again even if he was fully aware it would do the same damage to Saracens. It's very poor PR for him.

Essentially, he's saying it's his business to make as much money as he can (dead right) and if that is to the detriment of his club, that's not his problem. I'm sure he's not alone in that belief but it's another matter going on the record with it.

thomond2006

Buer wrote: »

Not blaming Vunipola at all for what transpired.

I just think he's incredibly naive and silly to publicly admit he'd do the same again even if he was fully aware it would do the same damage to Saracens. It's very poor PR for him.

Essentially, he's saying it's his business to make as much money as he can (dead right) and if that is to the detriment of his club, that's not his problem. I'm sure he's not alone in that belief but it's another matter going on the record with it.

The staff and lower profile players who will be losing jobs will be thrilled to read this.

Croohur1

Broke the rules, but would do it again knowing what he is doing is wrong, because he wants the money...

Squidgy Black

Croohur1 wrote: »

Very effing Christian of him. Broke the rules, but would do it again knowing what he is doing is wrong, because he wants the money...

Wrong Vunipola. Mako made the comment, not Billy.

Croohur1

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Wrong Vunipola. Mako made the comment, not Billy.

Fair enough. Have changed.

fitz

Buer wrote: »

Not blaming Vunipola at all for what transpired.

I just think he's incredibly naive and silly to publicly admit he'd do the same again even if he was fully aware it would do the same damage to Saracens. It's very poor PR for him.

Essentially, he's saying it's his business to make as much money as he can (dead right) and if that is to the detriment of his club, that's not his problem. I'm sure he's not alone in that belief but it's another matter going on the record with it.

Also gives lie to their nonsense assertion that they've attracted and retained all of these high profile players by building a good culture at the club.

Former Former

Mako did nothing wrong, why shouldn't he do it again?

The bitterness on this thread is incredible.

Buer

Former Former wrote: »

Mako did nothing wrong, why shouldn't he do it again?

The bitterness on this thread is incredible.

I agree he did absolutely nothing wrong but do you not think it's exceptionally naive for him to say what he did from a publicity perspective?

stephen_n

Buer wrote: »

Not blaming Vunipola at all for what transpired.

I just think he's incredibly naive and silly to publicly admit he'd do the same again even if he was fully aware it would do the same damage to Saracens. It's very poor PR for him.

Essentially, he's saying it's his business to make as much money as he can (dead right) and if that is to the detriment of his club, that's not his problem. I'm sure he's not alone in that belief but it's another matter going on the record with it.

I don’t think he gives to much of a fvck what people think about him, seems to be his own man and doesn’t take much seriously. Him laughing at his English team mates in 2017 when we stopped them doing the slam. Saying look at them all mopping, it’s just a rugby game, sums up his attitude.

thomond2006

Arrivals:
Aled Davies from Ospreys

Permanent:
Matt Gallagher to Munster
Titi Lamositele to Montpellier
Will Skelton to La Rochelle
Joe Gray to Harlequins
Ben Spencer to Bath
George Kruis to Panasonic Wild Knights

Loans for 2020/21:
Ben Earl to Bristol
Max Malins to Bristol
Jack Singleton to Gloucester
Alex Goode to NEC Green Rockets
Alex Lozowski to Montpellier
Nick Isiekwe to Northampton

If that's all then Saracens are going to coast the Championship.

Shefwedfan

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mark-mccall-reveals-saracens-plan-with-focus-on-top-flight-return-in-2021-22-s2fmgnvbn?fbclid=IwAR3_Ln_yraUvrlFERHnysH1Q2kA5ODIcJW1tjTkidzu76HJ-UO-ZT8mu1FM

Doesn't look like a huge reduction in the squad....shifting money to players via new channels seems to be the new method, not abide the salary cap

pickarooney

thomond2006 wrote: »

Arrivals:
Aled Davies from Ospreys

Permanent:
Matt Gallagher to Munster
Titi Lamositele to Montpellier
Will Skelton to La Rochelle
Joe Gray to Harlequins
Ben Spencer to Bath

Loans for 2020/21:
Ben Earl to Bristol
Max Malins to Bristol
Jack Singleton to Gloucester
Alex Goode to NEC Green Rockets
Alex Lozowski to Montpellier
George Kruis to Panasonic Wild Knights
Nick Isiekwe to Northampton

If that's all then Saracens are going to coast the Championship.

They should probably loan out a good few more. Keep the top end players sharp and give the youngsters a chance to break through. Even funding part of their wages when they loan the good lads out to Japan or Major League Rugby or wherever.

Shefwedfan

Sorry behind pay wall

Mark McCall reveals Saracens plan with focus on top-flight return in 2021-22

Squad divided into four groups

The arrival at Saracens of Aled Davies, the Ospreys scrum half with 20 Wales caps, was greeted rather oddly by one newspaper. It portrayed this signing as a rare shaft of light among the gloom caused by an exodus after relegation from the Premiership, and allied blows.

Yet the news is that Saracens players are staying in droves. Mark McCall, the director of rugby, has almost completed planning for the 2021-22 season, when they hope to be back in the Premiership (after what they think will be a hard year in the Championship). The squad, it seems, will feature all their England World Cup megastars, bar George Kruis.

Had they been a Premier League football club relegated from the top league, or had they not been a club that draws such fierce loyalty and pride from their players, Saracens could easily have been looking for a whole new playing staff.

How has McCall plotted the long comeback? “What we asked ourselves first is how we wanted our squad to look in 2021-22,” he says. “At the centre of that is trying to retain our best younger players who are going to be the core of the club. We have a decent record in developing young players from the academy all the way through, that is the club we want to continue to be.”

So seven high-quality players whose development would not necessarily be improved in the second tier are joining other Premiership clubs for one season only, and have already re-signed for Saracens after that season.

“We are incredibly grateful to some of the clubs who have helped out,” McCall says. “Max Malins has been hammered by injury but everybody knows he is an incredibly exciting talent. Alex [Goode, aged 32] is an older player who deserves a chance to experience something different.”

Another club source told The Sunday Times that they expect Goode, such a brilliant player for Saracens and treasured by McCall, to go to a Japanese club for the season, while the richly talented Alex Lozowski is expected to sign for Montpellier.

Yet the challenges are still relentless. Saracens have to play the remaining nine games of what is now last season, a quarter-final round of the Heineken Champions Cup away to mighty Leinster, plus a full campaign in the Championship to try to earn promotion.

Initially, the new Championship season may yet run on the same weekends as the “old” Premiership matches. McCall and his colleagues have, in effect, divided their squad into four: the one-season wonders contingent; the illustrious England World Cup contingent — Maro Itoje, Billy and Mako Vunipola, Owen Farrell, Jamie George and Elliot Daly; a group from the normal first XV; and the young players.

How do they run the elite England group? “This is a complicated conversation,” McCall says. “Pre-Covid, the idea was for them to have a restful club year, to play a lot of Tests, the odd cup game and then the Lions. But because there has been nothing in March to May it could well be that they finish the old season, then the Europe quarter-final, so they will have some good rugby.”

There is still the possibility that at least one of the superstars will depart on a one-year deal. Itoje reportedly intended to spend his season at a French club but the RFU ruled that he would still be subject to the regulation that prevents selection for the England squad for those abroad.

McCall’s third and fourth groups are complementary. He has a strong group from the normal first XV squad for the Championship and any one-off games. Finally, McCall has earmarked about 20 players, many from the academy, who will benefit from time in the first team in the Championship.

Saracens will have positions to fill. The powerful Kruis is going to Japan and Will Skelton, the Australian, has joined La Rochelle. Ben Spencer, the scrum half, has been announced as a new Bath player. He and the prop Titi Lamositele who has joined Montpellier, are, you suspect, the only players that Saracens truly wanted to keep. They will also need to replace the leadership of the centre Brad Barritt, who is not expected to continue beyond this season.

Do Saracens feel angry? Not at all. “We made some mistakes and were punished for them,” McCall says. “We hope to be back in 2021-22 with a strong and homegrown squad.” Exodus, but in reverse.

Seven leaving for one season
Seven players, all bar one of them internationals, are leaving Saracens on one-season contracts. All have re-signed for Saracens for 2021-22: Ben Earl (to Bristol); Alex Goode (Japan); Nick Isiekwe (Northampton); Alex Lozowski (Montpellier); Max Malins (Bristol); Jack Singleton (Gloucester); Nick Tompkins (Cardiff Blues)

Shefwedfan

pickarooney wrote: »

They should probably loan out a good few more. Keep the top end players sharp and give the youngsters a chance to break through. Even funding part of their wages when they loan the good lads out to Japan or Major League Rugby or wherever.

If running 4 teams they wont let anyone go

Quin_Dub

Shefwedfan wrote: »

If running 4 teams they wont let anyone go

Which begs the question on whether they will be able to meet the financial requirements to re-enter the Premiership?

Shefwedfan

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Which begs the question on whether they will be able to meet the financial requirements to re-enter the Premiership?

Which again suggest they have just figured out another loop hole and continue on as is

RugbyLover123

I know I mentioned it in the premiership thread, but I still don’t see how they’ll be under the cap when they come back up and get those players back. I suppose they’ll be losing Barrett too but still.

They’ll essentially still be able to play an international standard 23. No other prem Club is near being able to do that. Unless their negotiating or accounting is top notch or other clubs are over paying players then I don’t see how it’s possible.

Disappointed to see so many prem clubs take players off them for a year loan. I had heard somewhere that there had apparently been an agreement between all other prem clubs that they’d not be taking any of their players on loan.

Buer

I may be wrong but I don't believe Kruis has gone on loan. He has gone to Japan and severed ties with Saracens. However, he is only out there on a 1 year deal and, whilst he may well join Saracens again in 12 months, that's not certain.

Whilst they will be back and still a very strong team, they're are not going to be at the same level. They'll have lost a few high quality players. My understanding is they still haven't confirmed if Itoje and Mako Vunipola are definitely staying next year. As mentioned above, Itoje was very open to leaving for the year until he had it confirmed that he couldn't play for England if he went to France.

They'll also lose guys like Barritt and Wigglesworth. Alex Goode will turn 34 in the season he returns. He'll turn 35 the season they get to play in Europe again. Sean Maitland is likely to be gone in the next 1-2 years also. Duncan Taylor is a guy who is on the wrong side of 30. There are squad players like Callum Clarke (boo, hiss) who is out of contract this summer along with others. They're going to have to rely heavily on their academy in the coming years.

Of course they'll attract new talent in also but they won't have the pull they had a year ago when they come back particularly without the promise of top level European rugby initially.

I think they'll be an excellent team and will automatically be challenging again but they're simply not going to be near unbeatable machine that they once were.

Buer

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

I know I mentioned it in the premiership thread, but I still don’t see how they’ll be under the cap when they come back up and get those players back. I suppose they’ll be losing Barrett too but still.

They’ll essentially still be able to play an international standard 23. No other prem Club is near being able to do that. Unless their negotiating or accounting is top notch or other clubs are over paying players then I don’t see how it’s possible.

The salary cap report is there for all to see. They were £906k over the cap last season. They're already comfortably under the cap I'd imagine with the current departures (not including loan deals).

lawrencesummers

Will Skelton will fit in well in France, his focus on violence over rugby is exactly what some clubs over there love.

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/samrobertsrugby/status/1270017576530251776?s=19

pickarooney

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Will Skelton will fit in well in France, his focus on violence over rugby is exactly what some clubs over there love.

Slightly unfair on both Skelton and French rugby.