Messy farm inheritance issue

roosky

Hi all,

I have a friend involved in a messy issue and I would appreciate your opinions on it as she came to me for advice and i want to have a balanced point to make.

Okay so her father and mother have a 80 acre sucker farm, she is actively involved in the farm and also does all book work and herd health and breeding decisions. Working away from home but home every weekend working on farm and takes holidays for calving etc...

She plans to return home in next two years to farm with father (will also have off farm job) and to live on farm or locally. She has two brothers living in Dublin with good jobs and no interest in farming and have no involvement in the farm or never had.

The parents have decided to split the farm equally between the three kids and said one can buy out the other if they want to farm.....obviously buying your home farm even at 2/3 of market value is not an attractive option and planning life and career around a 25 odd acre farm is silly.

Do you feel she has reason to feel upset and let down by her parents as she feels if she was an only son working in agri industry, actively involved in the family farm, planning on moving home and farming and had two sisters with no interest in the farm that the farm would not be split three ways and left unviable looking forward.

Are her parents doing the fairest thing or are they being silly to have a child interested in carrying on the family farm and letting that opportunity slip in the interest of “fairness” regardless of the gender thing ??

TIA

Still waters

Tell her call their bluff and see if one of her brothers coughs up to payout, if they pay market value then happy days for her, if i was her, I wouldn't please them to try to buy it if i was working it, she's either good enough to farm it or not would be my opinion

Millionaire only not

I’ve a similar situation a nc d we don’t know who there going to give it to !
The girl has worked it 20/30 years always been around or the boy that comes and goes and to be fair has put money in now and again
A pure mess , playing with auld ones

Millionaire only not

roosky wrote: »

Hi all,

I have a friend involved in a messy issue and I would appreciate your opinions on it as she came to me for advice and i want to have a balanced point to make.

Okay so her father and mother have a 80 acre sucker farm, she is actively involved in the farm and also does all book work and herd health and breeding decisions. Working away from home but home every weekend working on farm and takes holidays for calving etc...

She plans to return home in next two years to farm with father (will also have off farm job) and to live on farm or locally. She has two brothers living in Dublin with good jobs and no interest in farming and have no involvement in the farm or never had.

The parents have decided to split the farm equally between the three kids and said one can buy out the other if they want to farm.....obviously buying your home farm even at 2/3 of market value is not an attractive option and planning life and career around a 25 odd acre farm is silly.

Do you feel she has reason to feel upset and let down by her parents as she feels if she was an only son working in agri industry, actively involved in the family farm, planning on moving home and farming and had two sisters with no interest in the farm that the farm would not be split three ways and left unviable looking forward.

Are her parents doing the fairest thing or are they being silly to have a child interested in carrying on the family farm and letting that opportunity slip in the interest of “fairness” regardless of the gender thing ??

TIA

Give it to her is the only way , as we all know it’s what’s going to be made out of it in a day to day basis!

roosky

Still waters wrote: »

Tell her call their bluff and see if one of her brothers coughs up to payout, if they pay market value then happy days for her, if i was her, I wouldn't please them to try to buy it if i was working it, she's either good enough to farm it or not would be my opinion

Oh no neither brother have any intention of buying her out they are quite open about having no interest and their big question was is it better to plant or sell so they have no emotional attachment to the farm and were surprised they were getting a share !

The bit that is hurting her the most is that her father is willing for the family farm to be split sold and or planted rather than keeping the farm together when there is a child wanting to farm it

s7ryf3925pivug

Why should the sons be disinherited? Of course dividing the estate is the best and fairest thing to do. If the daughter wants it she can buy them out. Nothing to do with gender; that suggestion sounds like manipulative nonsense.

Millionaire only not

Maia Great Railing wrote: »

Why should the sons be disinherited? Of course dividing the estate is the best and fairest thing to do. If the daughter wants it she can buy them out. Nothing to do with gender; that suggestion sounds like manipulative nonsense.

Farms don’t work that way , it’s not viable to buy them out !
Some small token maybe , but they got there education , they have a job good luck to them !

Becks610

I think you should ask the father if the situation was reversed and it was only of your brothers interested in farming it and not you would be still divide in 3.

I have seen this happen before- divide with girls but not with lads.

Re the brother’s inheritance - I do think this is going to be more of an issue down the line ( not in your case but in general). As another poster said they got their education but now most people do in farming families. As it gets tougher to get on housing market etc more ppl will expect or need an inheritance or will ease feel its unfair. Probably won’t be as much of an issue in big dairy farms where there would be money.

If the farm is to be divided I wouldn’t see the point in you coming home to just get the same amount as the other two. Maybe have a chat with your father- none much you can do if he won’t change his mind but I understand your grievance.

roosky

Millionaire only not wrote: »

Farms don’t work that way , it’s not viable to buy them out !
Some small token maybe , but they got there education , they have a job good luck to them !

Oh she is more than happy to give them sites and let them have the family home which a relatively new home worth probably over 300k....the issue is for example of the 80 acres are valued at 7k an acre that’s €373,333 she would have to pay to inherit her family farm which is obviously not viable !

Donald Trump

roosky wrote: »

Hi all,

I have a friend involved in a messy issue and I would appreciate your opinions on it as she came to me for advice and i want to have a balanced point to make.

Okay so her father and mother have a 80 acre sucker farm, she is actively involved in the farm and also does all book work and herd health and breeding decisions. Working away from home but home every weekend working on farm and takes holidays for calving etc...

She plans to return home in next two years to farm with father (will also have off farm job) and to live on farm or locally. She has two brothers living in Dublin with good jobs and no interest in farming and have no involvement in the farm or never had.

The parents have decided to split the farm equally between the three kids and said one can buy out the other if they want to farm.....obviously buying your home farm even at 2/3 of market value is not an attractive option and planning life and career around a 25 odd acre farm is silly.

Do you feel she has reason to feel upset and let down by her parents as she feels if she was an only son working in agri industry, actively involved in the family farm, planning on moving home and farming and had two sisters with no interest in the farm that the farm would not be split three ways and left unviable looking forward.

Are her parents doing the fairest thing or are they being silly to have a child interested in carrying on the family farm and letting that opportunity slip in the interest of “fairness” regardless of the gender thing ??

TIA

"She plans to return home" implies to me that she is not there already.

She knows in advance and doesn't have to wait until the reading of the will.

It's not inconceivable that her plan to move home might have been influenced at the thought of getting everything left to her..........if it doesn't work out sure she can sell up a few weeks after the funeral and head back to wherever she is now

Millionaire only not

roosky wrote: »

Oh she is more than happy to give them sites and let them have the family home which a relatively new home worth probably over 300k....the issue is for example of the 80 acres are valued at 7k an acre that’s €373,333 she would have to pay to inherit her family farm which is obviously not viable !

If u read the post , she comes home weekends takes holidays to suit calving !
Obviously she has a love for farming if it was about the value of the land , she’ll have it spent 10 times over the course of her life keeping it in order !

roosky

I also think another point that has hurt her is the talk about young people having no interest in farming and turning their back on rural Ireland and tradition and here she is wanting to come home and farm and she is not being given a chance to......

Becks610

roosky wrote: »

I also think another point that has hurt her is the talk about young people having no interest in farming and turning their back on rural Ireland and tradition and here she is wanting to come home and farm and she is not being given a chance to......

Does her father want her to come home and farm with him as it seems really unfair that he would let her come home and then not give the farm? At least he told her what he was planning - imagine the hurt afterwards?

roosky

Donald Trump wrote: »

"She plans to return home" implies to me that she is not there already.

She knows in advance and doesn't have to wait until the reading of the will.

It's not inconceivable that her plan to move home might have been influenced at the thought of getting everything left to her..........if it doesn't work out sure she can sell up a few weeks after the funeral and head back to wherever she is now

She isn’t there already as she isn’t long out of college and wanted to build experience in other parts of Ireland before moving home, she genuinely has no interest in a quick buck or the asset value of the farm, this is a genuine case of love for the family farm and the lack of off farm Employment in the area holding up her permanent return home

Millionaire only not

roosky wrote: »

I also think another point that has hurt her is the talk about young people having no interest in farming and turning their back on rural Ireland and tradition and here she is wanting to come home and farm and she is not being given a chance to......

Yes and maybe borrowing money to give the brothers to have it left in a bank account achieving nothing !

Becks610

Millionaire only not wrote: »

Yes and maybe borrowing money to give the brothers to have it left in a bank account achieving nothing !

Yes and on an 80 acre suckler farm if she ever settles down to have a family and build a house I can’t see the money been in the farm to sustain all of that and the Payout for the others ‘ share of the land. The father has to know this.

roosky

Becks610 wrote: »

Does her father want her to come home and farm with him as it seems really unfair that he would let her come home and then not give the farm? At least he told her what he was planning - imagine the hurt afterwards?

She gets on extremely well with her father and they farm very well together and their father/daughter dynamic doesn’t have the usual father son fighting and trying to be alpha male thing !

The stem of the issue is her mothers family fell out over land and the mother wants all split equally so no one feels hard done by ........but here we are !!

Becks610

So it’s the mother that is the one that wants it split. It’s a sad thing to say but people fall out over money and farms In particular all the time and it’s terrible.

Your friend should talk to the mother and father together and explain her rationale and see can they agree on something else. May not be easy as the mother has past bad experience-I would advise you to advise your friend that if she can’t get them to agree to something else then she should only come home if she will be able to live with the fact that she didn’t get the whole farm. Like because what will happen is the parents will age and she will be left to do the farming and the caring and just to be mindful of that- don’t let her resent all of this is the long run and I have seen that happen too and the person would have been better to walk away from the situation ages ago.

Millionaire only not

Becks610 wrote: »

So it’s the mother that is the one that wants it split. It’s a sad thing to say but people fall out over money and farms In particular all the time and it’s terrible.

Your friend should talk to the mother and father together and explain her rationale and see can they agree on something else. May not be easy as the mother has past bad experience-I would advise you to advise your friend that if she can’t get them to agree to something else then she should only come home if she will be able to live with the fact that she didn’t get the whole farm. Like because what will happen is the parents will age and she will be left to do the farming and the caring and just to be mindful of that- don’t let her resent all of this is the long run and I have seen that happen too and the person would have been better to walk away from the situation ages ago.

It’s better to walk now , than be hurt in 10/15 years time !

The J Stands for Jay

roosky wrote: »

Oh she is more than happy to give them sites and let them have the family home which a relatively new home worth probably over 300k....the issue is for example of the 80 acres are valued at 7k an acre that’s €373,333 she would have to pay to inherit her family farm which is obviously not viable !

If it's not viable to buy two thirds of the farm, did that mean it's not a viable business?

Becks610

Millionaire only not wrote: »

It’s better to walk now , than be hurt in 10/15 years time !

Yes I agree too.

ted1

roosky wrote: »

Oh no neither brother have any intention of buying her out they are quite open about having no interest and their big question was is it better to plant or sell so they have no emotional attachment to the farm and were surprised they were getting a share !

The bit that is hurting her the most is that her father is willing for the family farm to be split sold and or planted rather than keeping the farm together when there is a child wanting to farm it

I don’t see the issue, she’s keeps farming and pays the brothers for their share of the inheritance? I perfume she’s being taking a salary up to now from the land

roosky

McGaggs wrote: »

If it's not viable to buy two thirds of the farm, did that mean it's not a viable business?

No it’s an 80 acre suckler farm in the west of Ireland it’s not and never will be viable to pay off a €373,333 debt and interest on top of that !

The business is viable to justify farming it into the future but not to pay off that kind of debt

roosky

ted1 wrote: »

I don’t see the issue, she’s keeps farming and pays the brothers for their share of the inheritance? I perfume she’s being taking a salary up to now from the land

It’s not viable to pay off €373,333 and interest from a relatively small farm........no she hasn’t taken a salary it’s a west of Ireland suckler farm her father has barely a salary out of it !

This further proves the point that her case is a genuine love for the farm rather than financial gain !

beauf

The mistake is working for free without some formal agreement. Oh we've all done it. But parents would value a child's contribution if they had to pay for it, and there would be no confusion about being owed something in lieu of wages.

I'd suggest the farm is no longer viable option for the daughter future plans and I'd start reducing her hours involved in it. Id also start making future plans that don't involve the farm.

The majority of the daughters time has not committed to the farm before now, it suggests her main focus has always been elsewhere. Though she may not have realised it.

Also it maybe already out of her hands.

Bandana boy

If it’s not a viable asset to pay two thirds of a nominal price then who will pay 100% of this nominal price ?

roosky

Bandana boy wrote: »

If it’s not a viable asset to pay two thirds of a nominal price then who will pay 100% of this nominal price ?

Someone who has the money from another source or in savings......

Millionaire only not

Bandana boy wrote: »

If it’s not a viable asset to pay two thirds of a nominal price then who will pay 100% of this nominal price ?

Some lunatic !
State agency Teagasc will convince them and banks to lend money to some fool to break his back for next 20 years !

fiload

From a family farm myself, there can be a lot going through the parents mind with regards to alot of people falling out or feeling left out.
I think she should talk to her father one on one about it to tell him it was always her intention on coming back to farm and that intention should count for something when dividing the acreage.
If she has the father on her side then the rest will follow.
If the parents want no-one to fall out then the house, few sites could go to the brothers to even it out valuation wise roughly

Bandana boy

roosky wrote: »

Someone who has the money from another source or in savings......

And how many people are knocking about with the cash to buy 80 acres in the west of Ireland at 33% more than the farm can sustain it self for and are stupid enough to pay that price ?

gotta think bar some Yank Boxer coming home top buy his ancestral home the farm will sell for a fair price and getting it for 66% of that is still pretty good.

roosky

fiload wrote: »

From a family farm myself, there can be a lot going through the parents mind with regards to alot of people falling out or feeling left out.
I think she should talk to her father one on one about it to tell him it was always her intention on coming back to farm and that intention should count for something when dividing the acreage.
If she has the father on her side then the rest will follow.
If the parents want no-one to fall out then the house, few sites could go to the brothers to even it out valuation wise roughly

I had thought about getting her to talk to the father one on one but just taking my own parents as an example my father would be very offended if I discussed it with just my mother and visa Versa, I was thinking of suggesting writing a letter to both parents about how hurt she is over their decision outlining the genuine non financial reasons she is upset and her fear of the family farm being split

roosky

Bandana boy wrote: »

And how many people are knocking about with the cash to buy 80 acres in the west of Ireland at 33% more than the farm can sustain it self for and are stupid enough to pay that price ?

gotta think bar some Yank Boxer coming home top buy his ancestral home the farm will sell for a fair price and getting it for 66% of that is still pretty good.

What are you getting at.....that the farm profitablity should decide the market value ???

So then the farm is worth €1500 an acre and she pays the lads €1000 an acre ....... that would be a hard sell when they google “average land value in Ireland”

s7ryf3925pivug

roosky wrote: »

Oh she is more than happy to give them sites and let them have the family home which a relatively new home worth probably over 300k....the issue is for example of the 80 acres are valued at 7k an acre that’s €373,333 she would have to pay to inherit her family farm which is obviously not viable !

That sucks that she is only going to inherit just under 300k instead of getting her rightful 860k (especially when she would kindly give away 300k of that). Your assertion that most twenty-something year olds who do weekend jobs since their teens have accumulated well over 860k sounds like the coolheaded voice of reason. Those brothers with their "jobs" would just leave the money in their bank accounts. I can't imagine how her mother could think she wouldn't feel hard done by in this scenario!

roosky

Maia Great Railing wrote: »

That sucks that she is only going to inherit just under 300k instead of getting her rightful 860k (especially when she would kindly give away 300k of that). Your assertion that most twenty-something year olds who do weekend jobs since their teens have accumulated well over 860k sounds like the coolheaded voice of reason. Those brothers with their "jobs" would just leave the money in their bank accounts. I can't imagine how the mother would think she wouldn't feel hard done by in this scenario!

Your missing one very important point.....yes she she will be assets rich but the income from the farm will be less than 10k per year and she has the responsibility of looking after her parents as the age while the two brothers walk away with a Cheque and less responsibility

s7ryf3925pivug

roosky wrote: »

Your missing one very important point.....yes she she will be assets rich but the income from the farm will be less than 10k per year and she has the responsibility of looking after her parents as the age while the two brothers walk away with a Cheque and less responsibility

Her choice whether to look after them or not. She can change her mind.

10k per year is very bad. Best thing they can do is to dissolve the asset. Much better for the children to all get good houses with little or no mortgages.

GrasstoMilk

Maia Great Railing wrote: »

That sucks that she is only going to inherit just under 300k instead of getting her rightful 860k (especially when she would kindly give away 300k of that). Your assertion that most twenty-something year olds who do weekend jobs since their teens have accumulated well over 860k sounds like the coolheaded voice of reason. Those brothers with their "jobs" would just leave the money in their bank accounts. I can't imagine how her mother could think she wouldn't feel hard done by in this scenario!

It's only worth 800k if she sells it which she isnt going to do, she wants to farm it and keep it in the family. Farms are asset rich and cash poor in Ireland and it's hard work that rarely returns the value of the hours put in. The girl wants the family farm for the love if it and to keep it in the family.
If she's there every moment she gets and has a genuine interest and has plans to come back to live with the parents I would think she is being hard done by. Remember, it's only worth 800k if its sold

Mooooo

I'd suggest she sit down and talk with the whole family. Including the brothers. Keeping communication open is key.

Cavanjack

If the brothers have any cop they’d tell the parents to give it to their sister.

NSAman

Cavanjack wrote: »

If the brothers have any cop they’d tell the parents to give it to their sister.

You never know with inheritance issues who will be offended and go off and seek legal advice.

As Mooo above said, get the brothers involved and have a family discussion.It cleans the air and gets everyone’s side out in the open. The brothers are youngish by the sounds of this. Age changes a person and the brothers MAY want to come back too..

Sit down as a family and discuss this openly without anger.

Land and inheritance have split FAR too many families apart.

whelan2

I have 2 older sisters and 2 younger brothers. Farm was passed on to me when I was in my 20s. My parents have always been at pains to treat all of us fairly. The rest of them have all gotten deposits for their houses etc. None of them have any interest in the farm. There's one sister who an odd time will say that I must be the favourite as I got the farm. It used to annoy me but the last time I just said you're welcome to it.

joeguevara

Where there is a will there is a relative.

Firstly no one has a divine right to their parents assets and it appears that all children were given an education from their parents hard work. Making it a gender issue is irrelevant because every situation is different. Who knows if it would be different if it was one of the sons wanted to farm.

Honestly if it was me id tell my parents to sell up and enjoy their retirement but equally I know that farming families want their land to be passed down.

It appears that in this situation the parents don't want to show preference to one child over others and communication is key.

But a family issue is usually better served to be kept between them. It's admirable you helping your friend but can sometimes mean being blinded to other scenarios.

But I preface all the above by the fact that I am not a farmer.

dubrov

It's only fair to split the inheritance 3 ways. The only reason not to is to sustain the farm over family fairness.

It looks like the parents and brothers have already expressed the view that sustaining the farm is not important to them.

If there farm can't support itself at the fair market price (which I doubt), I don't see why everyone should be expected what would effectively be a hobby for the sister

Donald Trump

roosky wrote: »

She isn’t there already as she isn’t long out of college and wanted to build experience in other parts of Ireland before moving home, she genuinely has no interest in a quick buck or the asset value of the farm, this is a genuine case of love for the family farm and the lack of off farm Employment in the area holding up her permanent return home

Lets kill two birds with one stone here. If she's hot, sign her up to boards and we'll get her paired off with a bachelor farmer with even more land and better land in a better location.








Half tongue-in-cheek...half not

roosky

roosky wrote: »

Oh she is more than happy to give them sites and let them have the family home which a relatively new home worth probably over 300k....the issue is for example of the 80 acres are valued at 7k an acre that’s €373,333 she would have to pay to inherit her family farm which is obviously not viable !

Not necessarily. There is agriculture relief. She needs a good accountant who specialises in farm accounts.

They need discuss this as a family. Where tax problems may arise is if her siblings gifted her their share.

Professional advice including the whole family is needed.

Millionaire only not

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

It's only worth 800k if she sells it which she isnt going to do, she wants to farm it and keep it in the family. Farms are asset rich and cash poor in Ireland and it's hard work that rarely returns the value of the hours put in. The girl wants the family farm for the love if it and to keep it in the family.
If she's there every moment she gets and has a genuine interest and has plans to come back to live with the parents I would think she is being hard done by. Remember, it's only worth 800k if its sold

800k and by the time they sell pay fees tax , divided in 3 there’s nothing of good to anyone now !
And farm gone for good !
U can only sell in once !

Markcheese

Put the farm(land) into a family trust , to be used by whoever is farming it , it can't be sold or materially changed without all trustees agreement , ( option on farm use is passed on to kids of whoever runs it ,and if not, out to the cousins ) ,
Basically it means it stays as a family farm ,and not 1 child getting a massive payout and the others nothing ..

Bif

Parents house and a couple of sites for sons and farm for the daughter?

Millionaire only not

dubrov wrote: »

It's only fair to split the inheritance 3 ways. The only reason not to is to sustain the farm over family fairness.

It looks like the parents and brothers have already expressed the view that sustaining the farm is not important to them.

If there farm can't support itself at the fair
market price (which I doubt), I don't see why everyone should be expected what would effectively be a hobby for the sister

U can’t have fairness when it comes to farms , if it’s big enough to divide between siblings if there all interested fine !
After that it usually goes to the one who work’s and is prepared to mind the old ones in later year’s !
Take this farm giving it to 2 sons who looks like they’ve no interest for there other half’s to blow it in BT ‘s . They’ve there bed med go and lie in it !

Panch18

This has got mess written all over it

Firstly I don’t think it’s a gender issue per se, I know plenty of lads that have been ****ed over when it comes to farm inheritance, it’s not just done to women

Secondly I agree with having a family meeting - and depending on how that goes she then needs to take action. If the outcome is still to divide equally then she needs to immediately stop going home and working on the weekends. You can be a fool and work for free in the hope of getting something but when you know it’s going to be equally divided then to continue to work on it would be pure stupid altogether. And you know sometimes absence makes the heart grow fonder, the father might realise what it’s like without her and value her contributions more.

Thirdly if the brothers have wives or girlfriends then that could have a major influence on family meeting, I would say best if they were not included in the meeting.

From what you say on here it looks to me like this is a lost cause for her, especially with mother’s history of inheritance problems. She needs to find out exactly what the plan is, the will, and then act accordingly. If it was me as I said I’d be cutting ties, or certainly dramatically reducing ties. Certainly from a farm work point of view, just walk away

Panch18

joeguevara wrote: »

Where there is a will there is a relative.

er.

Haha this is a brilliant line, and soooo true

dubrov

Millionaire only not wrote:

U can’t have fairness when it comes to farms , if it’s big enough to divide between siblings if there all interested fine ! After that it usually goes to the one who work’s and is prepared to mind the old ones in later year’s ! Take this farm giving it to 2 sons who looks like they’ve no interest for there other half’s to blow it in BT ‘s . They’ve there bed med go and lie in it !

You are presuming that preservation of the farm within the family is the most important thing.

To be honest, it is a bit controlling to try and force children to keep farming by dangling the carrot of inheritance.

Let them make their own decisions. If they decide amongst themselves that one should inherit all, so be it