Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

Cork Trucker

Jordan 199 wrote: »

So are you saying Renault should keep their mouth shut and not complain about Racing Point then?

Nope, it’s hypocrisy on Renault’s end, other teams were vocal about it but never took it this far, why is that? Convenient they both RP’s just beat Ricciardo over the line wasn’t it? Yet nothing of the sort the week before on the same track, Perez was 6th in that race Ocon 8th.

PukkaStukka

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/150540/fia-to-hear-renault-protest-over-racing-point-cars

Autosport wrote:

It relates specifically to the front and rear brake ducts used by the Racing Point RP20, which Renault believes are too similar to those used on last year's Mercedes W10 than the rules allow.....

"The stewards determined that the protest met all requirements specified in Article 13 of the FIA International Sporting Code and is, therefore, admissible

mickdw

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Nope, it’s hypocrisy on Renault’s end, other teams were vocal about it but never took it this far, why is that? Convenient they both RP’s just beat Ricciardo over the line wasn’t it? Yet nothing of the sort the week before on the same track, Perez was 6th in that race Ocon 8th.

I feel this needs to be investigated properly anyway. If this is going to be allowed, they should probably look at allowing customer year old car across the board. It would be a useful leg up for williams for example while still never winning.
There are not many seasons where this is a runner though.

PukkaStukka

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/single-seaters/f1/stewards-demand-racing-point-mercedes-brake-parts-over-illegal-copying-allegations

This says parts are impounded

chicorytip

pyramuid man wrote: »

I'm still hoping for Vettel to get a Mercedes drive and Bottas to Aston Martin.

Will never happen but would be great to see.

Bottas performs well only when Hamilton performs poorly. Fourteen seconds adrift yesterday. So, what do Merc do about him next year? Keep him in order to maintain the current stability within the team - which suits Lewis - or bring in a young gun like Russell or big beast like Vettel? Hamilton will win this year's title and next year's as well, more than likely, making him the most successful driver in the history of the sport. He will then either retire or join Ferrari. He has denied ever wanting to leave Mercedes and join the Scuderia but I think he would particularly if the car was capable of winning the title. He would have little to lose by doing this as his legendary status would already be assured.

El_Duderino 09

chicorytip wrote: »

Bottas performs well only when Hamilton performs poorly. Fourteen seconds adrift yesterday. So, what do Merc do about him next year? Keep him in order to maintain the current stability within the team - which suits Lewis - or bring in a young gun like Russell or big beast like Vettel? Hamilton will win this year's title and next year's as well, more than likely, making him the most successful driver in the history of the sport. He will then either retire or join Ferrari. He has denied ever wanting to leave Mercedes and join the Scuderia but I think he would particularly if the car was capable of winning the title. He would have little to lose by doing this as his legendary status would already be assured.

Even on a bad day he finished second and was within one pitstop of Hamilton at the end and well within a pitstop all race. 1-2 for Mercedes so I'd say they'll keep him. He's an ideal no 2 and he can even be the fastest driver on occasion. Perfect.

quokula

chicorytip wrote: »

Bottas performs well only when Hamilton performs poorly. Fourteen seconds adrift yesterday. So, what do Merc do about him next year? Keep him in order to maintain the current stability within the team - which suits Lewis - or bring in a young gun like Russell or big beast like Vettel? Hamilton will win this year's title and next year's as well, more than likely, making him the most successful driver in the history of the sport. He will then either retire or join Ferrari. He has denied ever wanting to leave Mercedes and join the Scuderia but I think he would particularly if the car was capable of winning the title. He would have little to lose by doing this as his legendary status would already be assured.

He'd have an awful lot to lose if he goes to a team that doesn't have an utterly dominant car as people will be reminded that he's actually not that great and his only real achievements at Mercedes were beating Bottas, which most of the grid could do, and beating Rosberg twice and losing to him once.

muckwarrior

quokula wrote: »

beating Bottas, which most of the grid could do

I think that's an overstatement in fairness. I'd say Bottas would have a good chance of beating half the drivers on the grid over the course of a season. He's not champion material, but he's no slouch either.

quokula

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Nope, it’s hypocrisy on Renault’s end, other teams were vocal about it but never took it this far, why is that? Convenient they both RP’s just beat Ricciardo over the line wasn’t it? Yet nothing of the sort the week before on the same track, Perez was 6th in that race Ocon 8th.

Either RP broke the rules or they didn't. The investigation will decide that, and there's nothing wrong with Renault or anyone else asking for it to be checked out. If they didn't break the rules then there is no impact, if they did break the rules and get penalised then that's not Renault's fault.

christy c

Williams are lodging a protest that Ferrari copied their 2019 car

flazio

Does anyone know which Mercedes-Benz the Channel 4 team were standing around during coverage of the last couple of races? Might be worth impounding that car if it's last years model.

skipper_G

As a Racing Point fan I'm not concerned about the protest. It's a common practice, teams want every competitive advantage they can get including disadvantaging their opponents.

The team's statement: “BWT Racing Point F1 Team is extremely disappointed to see its results in the Styrian Grand Prix questioned by what it considers to be a misconceived and poorly informed protest. Any and all suggestion of wrongdoing is firmly rejected and the team will take all steps necessary to ensure the correct application of the regulations to the facts. Prior to the start of the season, the team co-operated fully with the FIA and satisfactorily addressed all questions regarding the origins of the design of the RP20. The team is confident that the protest will be dismissed once it has presented its response.”

This piece on motorsport.com LINK was a nice summary of what Renault are protesting

BikeRacer

quokula wrote: »

He'd have an awful lot to lose if he goes to a team that doesn't have an utterly dominant car as people will be reminded that he's actually not that great and his only real achievements at Mercedes were beating Bottas, which most of the grid could do, and beating Rosberg twice and losing to him once.

Hamilton making what was seen at the time as a mental decision leaving a championship winning car for a mid table team has been done...
Was Michael Schumachers reputation ruined by Rosberg beating him 3 out of 3?

Top Dog

BikeRacer wrote: »

Was Michael Schumachers reputation ruined by Rosberg beating him 3 out of 3?

Ruined? No. Tarnished - many would say yes.

quokula

BikeRacer wrote: »

Hamilton making what was seen at the time as a mental decision leaving a championship winning car for a mid table team has been done...
Was Michael Schumachers reputation ruined by Rosberg beating him 3 out of 3?

When in his 40s, after spending three years sitting in retirement getting rusty beforehand? Not exactly the same situation.

Adamocovic

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Nope, it’s hypocrisy on Renault’s end, other teams were vocal about it but never took it this far, why is that? Convenient they both RP’s just beat Ricciardo over the line wasn’t it? Yet nothing of the sort the week before on the same track, Perez was 6th in that race Ocon 8th.

Well there has been suspicions from teams and fans alike for a while. The dubbing of the “Pink Mercedes” and so.

Renault say they didn’t lodge it last week as it was F1s long awaited return and didn’t want to take away from that or the message of the first race. I can kind of get that.

Even last week Racing Point were being questioned about protests from other teams before this was lodged.

Nothing at all wrong with Renault pursuing it. And if RP haven’t done anything wrong they should welcome the chance to silence the complaints officially and ending speculation.

deafroadrunner

After watching the race yesterday and seeing how quick PR were coming through the field i just can't see it being completely legal.

If it is tho fair play to PR for designing a car that good as i reckon they could finish third this season, unless ferrari magically fix their car in the next few races.

El_Duderino 09

deafroadrunner wrote: »

After watching the race yesterday and seeing how quick PR were coming through the field i just can't see it being completely legal.

If it is tho fair play to PR for designing a car that good as i reckon they could finish third this season, unless ferrari magically fix their car in the next few races.

Yeah you could say fair play to PR and they could come third in the championship. But if they're too close to the Mercedes to the point that they clearly didn't design it themselves, then they've jumped teams like McLaren who would have legitimately been in contention for that position because of the design work they actually did themselves. It makes a bit of a mockery of the traditional idea of building a car and going racing.

If the RP arrangement is deemed OK then the teams will all have to adjust their business model. Why would red bull not just pool it's resources between its two teams? Then you're basically into having 2 Red bull teams, 2/3 ferrari teams and 2/3 Mercedes teams, mostly controlled by the parent team.

deafroadrunner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah you could say fair play to PR and they could come third in the championship. But if they're too close to the Mercedes to the point that they clearly didn't design it themselves, then they've jumped teams like McLaren who would have legitimately been in contention for that position because of the design work they actually did themselves. It makes a bit of a mockery of the traditional idea of building a car and going racing.

If the RP arrangement is deemed OK then the teams will all have to adjust their business model. Why would red bull not just pool it's resources between its two teams? Then you're basically into having 2 Red bull teams, 2/3 ferrari teams and 2/3 Mercedes teams, mostly controlled by the parent team.

I get where you coming and would be in agreement thats its unfair on other teams like mcclaren as theyve worked hard to try back to top of the grid.

I'm imagine if the F.I.A deem it too close to mercedes that its clearly copied work then they tell them its illigal no?

I guess well have to wait and see the report, any idea how long F.I.A will take?

afatbollix

I suppose it will take until the FIA get some of Mercs ducting from last year's car....

Unless Merc want them caught they could send over a old set that is a bit different.

I think they will get away with it myself.

Hijpo

afatbollix wrote: »

I suppose it will take until the FIA get some of Mercs ducting from last year's car....

Unless Merc want them caught they could send over a old set that is a bit different.

I think they will get away with it myself.

Is it just the brake ducts? Is there much more and the brake ducts are the start of it?

How much of the car could be illegal? Could it get to a stage where 30% of the car has to be thrown out?

AMKC

Hijpo wrote: »

Is it just the brake ducts? Is there much more and the brake ducts are the start of it?

How much of the car could be illegal? Could it get to a stage where 30% of the car has to be thrown out?

I would say it would have to much more than just the brake ducts. The nose also looks very similar to last years Merc. Maybe the front wing is similar too who knows.

El_Duderino 09

deafroadrunner wrote: »

I get where you coming and would be in agreement thats its unfair on other teams like mcclaren as theyve worked hard to try back to top of the grid.

I'm imagine if the F.I.A deem it too close to mercedes that its clearly copied work then they tell them its illigal no?

I guess well have to wait and see the report, any idea how long F.I.A will take?

No idea how long they'll take. I hope they take their time and consider the verdict because this could change the whole nature of f1 into the future.

We could quickly get a situation where the only teams developing new cars every year are the big 3. And everyone else just buys last year's car from one of them. Thereight be pros and cons to that approach but I'd want them to think long and hard about it.

mickdw

There are only some seasons where using last years car will be of any use.
At a time of change in regs - no good
Early in new regs - no good as development is too quick

This was a golden opportunity being late into a set of regs so the jump from year to year wont be huge.

Could a team copy a car in this manner from photographing and scanning. Running a mercedes and gearbox and any other purchasable parts would be a big help in pulling everything together but i think you would just end up with a car that looked great but didnt work.
Its abit too hollywood to believe that it could work very well straight off. After all, racing point could have little understanding of how it to set it up etc.

rock22

Top Dog wrote: »

So Sebastian had asked Martin Brundle to do an interview after the race. The rather unorthodox request of course has the rumour mill spinning that he might be about to announce his retirement. If true, I wonder will he see out the season?

I missed this interview. What has Vettel said re. his future?

racersedge

rock22 wrote: »

I missed this interview. What has Vettel said re. his future?

Believe Martin said it would be done ahead of this weekends race. Brundle did say it had nothing to do about announcing a retirement or the like, just a chat. But one would hardly expect anything to be mentioned ahead of it.

afatbollix

AMKC wrote: »

I would say it would have to much more than just the brake ducts. The nose also looks very similar to last years Merc. Maybe the front wing is similar too who knows.

More info here:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/racing-point-mercedes-brake-duct/4833399/

Be interesting if the stuff we don't see is the same.

ELM327

Those brake ducts look very very similar from the outside.

El_Duderino 09

mickdw wrote: »

There are only some seasons where using last years car will be of any use.
At a time of change in regs - no good
Early in new regs - no good as development is too quick

This was a golden opportunity being late into a set of regs so the jump from year to year wont be huge.

Could a team copy a car in this manner from photographing and scanning. Running a mercedes and gearbox and any other purchasable parts would be a big help in pulling everything together but i think you would just end up with a car that looked great but didnt work.
Its abit too hollywood to believe that it could work very well straight off. After all, racing point could have little understanding of how it to set it up etc.

When they had teams using the previous year's engine, they adapted the deal to be a number of iterations behind the current engine. Similar deals could be worked out for the rest of the car if there's a rapid rate of change. They'd figure it out if they wanted too.

PukkaStukka

Reading the recent threads here where different views are being well argued over RP and "Brakegate", it's reinforcing my belief that F1 has become an overly expensive, over-engineered, and over complicated mess.The pinnacle of racing technology and engineering excellence is not reflected in the spectacle on track. It's more like an arms race than a sport.