Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

billybonkers

Harika wrote: »

So folks are reporting that Racing Point will buy out Perez’s contract (which won’t be cheap), lose his sponsorship and pay Vettel’s salary? While trying to keep Aston Martin afloat... So Stroll Sr has to dump Stroll Jr?
Yeah, right. That’s really going to happen...

At least post the tweet

https://twitter.com/joesaward/status/1283452949801381888

ELM327

recyclebin wrote: »

Vettel replacing Perez makes no sense from a drivers point of view. Vettels form has been very poor the last couple of years. If they make that change its more for marketing than results! Vettel would be a big step up from Stroll but not from Perez. It could actually be a step backwards if Perez is booted out the door.

Vettel >>> Perez>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [x1,000,000]>>>> Stroll.
For me it should be stroll booted but of course it wont be.

Jordan 199

ELM327 wrote: »

For me it should be stroll booted but of course it wont be.

Stroll on the dole?

ELM327

pjohnson wrote: »

Verstappen vs. Albon lap times

Shows where Albon is really at.
Wherever it is, it's on a different stratosphere to Max

duploelabs

ELM327 wrote: »

Shows where Albon is really at.
Wherever it is, it's on a different stratosphere to Max

Put against several tracks with the same drivers then it may have some impact, but (even as hamilton said) some drivers work well at some tracks, not to mention their individual set-ups they may have on different sessions

vectra

recyclebin wrote: »

Vettel replacing Perez makes no sense from a drivers point of view. Vettels form has been very poor the last couple of years. If they make that change its more for marketing than results! Vettel would be a big step up from Stroll but not from Perez. It could actually be a step backwards if Perez is booted out the door.

I think you are mistaken, it has been Ferrari's form has been very bad this past decade.
Massa
Kimi
Alonso
Vettel

None of them could do it, are you saying all of them had very poor form?
I think where Vettel has suffered is trying to push the car too hard to give it it's best shot.
As for Perez being better than Vettel :rolleyes:

billybonkers wrote: »

At least post the tweet

"Hook, line & sinker"

ELM327

Alonso is possibly the best driver of the "new generation" that came in from 04-08. Vettel is an upper tier driver who won a race in an erstwhile minardi (torro rosso at monza).

These are two drivers at the pinnacle of their sporting abilities. The fact that ferrari wasted both of their careers in sub par cars is criminal. Massa is an upper mid card driver at best, and almost lucked into a title in '07.
Kimi should have done more with his career so cant blame the ferrari on that.

afatbollix

I personally can't wait for him to find a seat or retire (Which I think he will do)

As this silly season is getting very silly and it could be going on for months.

vectra

ELM327 wrote: »

Alonso is possibly the best driver of the "new generation" that came in from 04-08. Vettel is an upper tier driver who won a race in an erstwhile minardi (torro rosso at monza).

These are two drivers at the pinnacle of their sporting abilities. The fact that ferrari wasted both of their careers in sub par cars is criminal. Massa is an upper mid card driver at best, and almost lucked into a title in '07.
Kimi should have done more with his career so cant blame the ferrari on that.

Kimi is Ferrari's last wdc.
What are you implying?

ELM327

vectra wrote: »

Kimi is Ferrari's last wdc.
What are you implying?

I'm saying that he should have had more than one WDC, given his ability. And that includes his time in mclaren.


Essentially, that ferrari were not 100% to blame in his case like they were for Seb and for Alonso

muckwarrior

vectra wrote: »

I think you are mistaken, it has been Ferrari's form has been very bad this past decade.
Massa
Kimi
Alonso
Vettel

None of them could do it, are you saying all of them had very poor form?

Ferrari could be blamed for him not winning championships. It can't be blamed for him being outpaced by an inexperienced team mate or him making so many mistakes on track.

duploelabs

ELM327 wrote: »

Alonso is possibly the best driver of the "new generation" that came in from 04-08. Vettel is an upper tier driver who won a race in an erstwhile minardi (torro rosso at monza).

These are two drivers at the pinnacle of their sporting abilities. The fact that ferrari wasted both of their careers in sub par cars is criminal. Massa is an upper mid card driver at best, and almost lucked into a title in '07.
Kimi should have done more with his career so cant blame the ferrari on that.

Upper tier????? He's joint fourth on WDC ever!

H3llR4iser

recyclebin wrote: »

Vettel replacing Perez makes no sense from a drivers point of view. Vettels form has been very poor the last couple of years. If they make that change its more for marketing than results! Vettel would be a big step up from Stroll but not from Perez. It could actually be a step backwards if Perez is booted out the door.

Is this board delusional enough to think Perez is a better driver than Vettel? Checo is a fast lad and a fine journeyman - especially when it comes to staying out of trouble (for the most part...); The amount of podiums he amasses while never really driving a car that was podium worthy is a testament to that. When he had a shot at McLaren, the difference with Button was quite clear, however.

Seb is a 4x WDC - and yes, the car was the main factor, but it's true for all drivers: neither Hamilton nor Schumacher would've won a single championship without a proper car underneath. Actually, Vettel managed to win a race on merit while driving a car that belonged to the tail of the midfield, a feat very few drivers ever accomplished.

With Vettel, just like with Alonso - and going back way further, Prost - the blame is absolutely on Ferrari's shoulders and their incredibly inept team management. It's a cycle that goes on virtually unchanged every now and then in Maranello; The Todt/Brawn era was the exception, rather than the rule. Pretty much, every time Italians manage the team, things go ballz up.

The personalities involved determine HOW this happens - Prost simply voiced his dissatisfaction and was fired (the fact Cesare Fiorio was a flaming arsehole didn't help), Alonso thought he'd play team manager and was successful in worsening the situation further (the team firing Aldo Costa...who promprly went to Mercedes to design the W05, clarifying once and for all how "incompetent" he was); Vettel is a different charecter yet, and in his case, the issues translate directly on track.

I'm almost curious to see in which ways they'll manage to screw Leclerc's career - he's already won 2 races, but my money is on a Jean Alesi style scenario. Hope he runs like hell before it's too late and doesn't end up as a "should have been" like Jean.

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm saying that he should have had more than one WDC, given his ability. And that includes his time in mclaren.

Essentially, that ferrari were not 100% to blame in his case like they were for Seb and for Alonso

Raikkonen...he's a different kettle of fish. Closest thing in the modern day you can get to a James Huntesque type of attitude - in terms of "I won the championship, now eff off".

eviltimeban

Alonso came the closest though. Didn't he lose by one point or something one year? Racing against a dominant Red Bull at that.

afatbollix

Poor Russell has signed up with Williams for 2021

Latifi is also paying to stay...

namloc1980

https://www.racefans.net/2020/07/16/perez-had-approach-from-rival-f1-team-following-vettel-to-aston-martin-rumours/

Perez saying he's been approached by another team in the paddock, also mentions that Vettel has been extremely lucky to have a good car throughout his career. Bit of a beef brewing!!

ELM327

duploelabs wrote: »

Upper tier????? He's joint fourth on WDC ever!

in a dominant RB car. Same as for Hamilton, he won because he had the best car and all he had to do was beat his mediocre teammate.

eviltimeban wrote: »

Alonso came the closest though. Didn't he lose by one point or something one year? Racing against a dominant Red Bull at that.

Yeah, Alonso very nearly won in one of Seb's 4

duploelabs

ELM327 wrote: »

in a dominant RB car. Same as for Hamilton, he won because he had the best car and all he had to do was beat his mediocre teammate.






Yeah, Alonso very nearly won in one of Seb's 4

By that rational, then Schumacher only needed to beat Baracello in ferrari, or that Hill only had to beat Prost (a previous wdc winner) in the Williams with active suspension, or that Schumacher only needed to beat Verstappen in the benetton of 94
Saying cars alone win championships is just not right. Each car's characteristics can suit each drivers style. Even given the latter example, Verstappen described the aforementioned B194...
"I must have a little the same driving style as Johnny because he said basically the same things about that car that I did and seems to have had the same feelings. It was a very difficult car. You could not feel the limit and so you were pushing and pushing and then suddenly it would have oversteer. Normally when you get oversteer you can control it but the Benetton would go very suddenly and so you ended up having a spin. I had big problems with that car."
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benetton_B194#cite_note-2)
except Schumacher was able to win the championship with that car.

AMKC

P

ELM327 wrote: »

Alonso is possibly the best driver of the "new generation" that came in from 04-08. Vettel is an upper tier driver who won a race in an erstwhile minardi (torro rosso at monza).

These are two drivers at the pinnacle of their sporting abilities. The fact that ferrari wasted both of their careers in sub par cars is criminal. Massa is an upper mid card driver at best, and almost lucked into a title in 07

It was 08 that Massa nearly and really should have won the WDC

AMKC

Kimi is Ferrari's last wdc.
What are you implying?

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm saying that he should have had more than one WDC, given his ability. And that includes his time in mclaren.

Kimi was very unlucky at McLaren. He no doubt would have won a couple of WDCs back then except for the fact the cars then were so unreliable. So it was the Mercedes engine of the time over anything else that cost Kimi the WDC back then.

Frank Bullitt

https://twitter.com/TommyWTF1/status/1283137955708768256

Cork Trucker

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm saying that he should have had more than one WDC, given his ability. And that includes his time in mclaren.


Essentially, that ferrari were not 100% to blame in his case like they were for Seb and for Alonso

Kimi could’ve and probably should’ve been champion in 2003, likewise 2005.

Inquitus

Gintonious wrote: »

https://twitter.com/TommyWTF1/status/1283137955708768256

Sucks to be Perez, really not fair on him Least he gets to see the season out, hopefully he can impress and get a decent drive for 2021, though there's not much in the way of opportunities sadly!

chicorytip

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Kimi could’ve and probably should’ve been champion in 2003, likewise 2005.

If Vettel had won the championship just once driving a Ferrari he could retire happy today. That was his one unfulfilled ambition in the sport. He put his heart and soul into it but the car was never quite good or reliable enough. I think he should quit. The only vacancy befitting somebody of his stature would be at Mercedes. I don't know why Racing Point /Aston Martin would be appealing to him. Maybe it's the salary on offer but that would be all as far as I can see.

TCP/IP

chicorytip wrote: »

If Vettel had won the championship just once driving a Ferrari he could retire happy today. That was his one unfulfilled ambition in the sport. He put his heart and soul into it but the car was never quite good or reliable enough. I think he should quit. The only vacancy befitting somebody of his stature would be at Mercedes. I don't know why Racing Point /Aston Martin would be appealing to him. Maybe it's the salary on offer but that would be all as far as I can see.

Because he is a racer at heart and wants to stay on the grid very simple really.

Inquitus

chicorytip wrote: »

If Vettel had won the championship just once driving a Ferrari he could retire happy today. That was his one unfulfilled ambition in the sport. He put his heart and soul into it but the car was never quite good or reliable enough. I think he should quit. The only vacancy befitting somebody of his stature would be at Mercedes. I don't know why Racing Point /Aston Martin would be appealing to him. Maybe it's the salary on offer but that would be all as far as I can see.

He's only 33, still a good few years left in him yet, if he takes a drive for a lesser team, he might be able to swing a better drive in subsequent years, rather than stepping away for a year. That's the only reason I can see him going for it myself!

GarIT

Checo's family have been tweeing #KeepPerez as well as half of Mexico. The significance being that if his family is getting in on stirring up hype for keeping him he seat is definitely at risk. Might put an end to the people saying there is no chance of it happening.

Frank Bullitt

vectra wrote: »

I think you are mistaken, it has been Ferrari's form has been very bad this past decade.
Massa
Kimi
Alonso
Vettel

None of them could do it, are you saying all of them had very poor form?
I think where Vettel has suffered is trying to push the car too hard to give it it's best shot.

Hmmmm, Ferrari are not clean of sin in this, but Vettel has made plenty of blunders over his time at Ferrari.

Such as:
Mexico 2015, spins while trying to make up time after his puncture.
Malaysia 2016, outbreaks himself into turn one, and breaks his suspension.
Azerbaijan 2017, rams into Hamilton behind the SC, penalty and compromised race result.
Singapore 2017, tries to close the door on Verstappen and Raikkonen, takes them all out.
France 2018, crashes into Bottas at the start.
Austria 2018, impedes Sainz and gets a gird penalty
German 2018, the big one, crashes while leading the race in his home country
Italy 2018, spins while trying to defend from Hamilton
Japan 2018, spins while at it with Verstappen, had to wait for everyone to pass before he could continue.
Bahrain 2019, spins on his own dime with no contact from Hamilton. Front wing broke as a result of his flat spots
Britain 2019, his Verstappen after missing his breaking point
Italy 2019, spins again on his own, then hits Stroll when rejoining.

Ferrari haven't always produced a good car, but Vettel has the lions share of mistakes while he has been there, and some of them have really been awful.

vectra

Gintonious wrote: »

Hmmmm, Ferrari are not clean of sin in this, but Vettel has made plenty of blunders over his time at Ferrari.

Such as:
Mexico 2015, spins while trying to make up time after his puncture.
Malaysia 2016, outbreaks himself into turn one, and breaks his suspension.
Azerbaijan 2017, rams into Hamilton behind the SC, penalty and compromised race result.
Singapore 2017, tries to close the door on Verstappen and Raikkonen, takes them all out.
France 2018, crashes into Bottas at the start.
Austria 2018, impedes Sainz and gets a gird penalty
German 2018, the big one, crashes while leading the race in his home country
Italy 2018, spins while trying to defend from Hamilton
Japan 2018, spins while at it with Verstappen, had to wait for everyone to pass before he could continue.
Bahrain 2019, spins on his own dime with no contact from Hamilton. Front wing broke as a result of his flat spots
Britain 2019, his Verstappen after missing his breaking point
Italy 2019, spins again on his own, then hits Stroll when rejoining.

Ferrari haven't always produced a good car, but Vettel has the lions share of mistakes while he has been there, and some of them have really been awful.

I feel you are nit picking there to be honest.
Some of those were not his fault entirely.

Frank Bullitt

vectra wrote: »

I feel you are nit picking there to be honest.
Some of those were not his fault entirely.

So only partially his fault? It isn't really nit picking if they happened and he was involved.