General Election December, 2019 (U.K.)

liamtech

liamtech wrote: »

My main criticism of Corbyn is that i believe, given the circumstances, it is wrong to attempt to reform Brexit - it ought be stopped, and i believe Labour would do better if that was their Brexit Policy.

I await tonight's debate and i really hope Corbyn scores big against Bojo

Revocation - or "stopping"- Brexit is such a minority, extreme view that even many Remainers are against the idea.

It would be political suicide for Corbyn to go down that path.

5 million Labour voters in 2017 opted to Brexit.

markodaly

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You mentioned Atlee and his post war govt - I respond by referencing Atlee's big idea and I'm strawmanning?


You have utterly failed to demonstrate in any way, shape, or form how exactly Corbyn is 'extreme' in the context of being leader of the LP.
You have utterly failed to demonstrate how the policies he is advocating are 'extreme' in a contemporary European context.

I also stated that Johnson is not 'extreme' in the context of past policies of the Tories. I note your lack of quibbling with that.

I think you are clutching at straws. You made a blanket statement throwing around that word 'extreme'. You got called on it.

It seems you are upset I used the word extreme to describe both today's Labour and Tories but that is what they are, in the contemporary sense. Both parties are returning to their old past selves, forgetting that it's 2019, not 1945, or 1955.

They have utterly deserted the center ground of politics. If it were not for the FPTP system, neither of them would likely end up in government.

markodaly

markodaly wrote: »

It seems you are upset I used the word extreme to describe both today's Labour and Tories but that is what they are, in the contemporary sense. Both parties are returning to their old past selves, forgetting that it's 2019, not 1945, or 1955.

They have utterly deserted the center ground of politics. If it were not for the FPTP system, neither of them would likely end up in government.

If the centre-ground were what people wanted (now), the Liberal Democrats would be riding high in the polls.

They're not - and that says a lot.

You can't get more centre-ground than Chuka Umunna and Jo Swinson.

Zubeneschamali

Deleted User wrote: »

There are far better, more economically efficient and more productive ways for a society to manage healthcare.

The NHS is one the worst ways to manage healthcare - period.

Perhaps you would like to tell us about 3 of them, and then tell us how much they cost in tax money per head, and what the total spend on health per head (including insurance and private funds) is.

Because a quick squint at the OECD figures says the UK is near the average, and that most Western European countries (including Ireland), Canada, Australia, Japan and especially the USA spend more.

liamtech

Deleted User wrote: »

Revocation - or "stopping"- Brexit is such a minority, extreme view that even many Remainers are against the idea.

It would be political suicide for Corbyn to go down that path.

5 million Labour voters in 2017 opted to Brexit.

I never said revocation is my preferred stance Eskimohunt - given our lengthy debate yesterday i would think it CLEAR that i favor a peoples vote, ASAP - with no attempt to sanitize or Renegotiate

Danzy

liamtech wrote: »

I never said revocation is my preferred stance Eskimohunt - given our lengthy debate yesterday i would think it CLEAR that i favor a peoples vote, ASAP - with no attempt to sanitize or Renegotiate

That option will meet massive opposition in Westminster and significant opposition in Dublin and Brussels.

Zubeneschamali

markodaly wrote: »

So, as Devnull stated correctly if you are not for a Corbyn election win, you are therefore for a Tory election win.
That is the level of debate we have.

That is the electoral system you have. You vote for Kang or Kodos or you throw your vote away.

Bannasidhe

markodaly wrote: »

It seems you are upset I used the word extreme to describe both today's Labour and Tories but that is what they are, in the contemporary sense. Both parties are returning to their old past selves, forgetting that it's 2019, not 1945, or 1955.

They have utterly deserted the center ground of politics. If it were not for the FPTP system, neither of them would likely end up in government.

I am not upset. I am calling you on your use of the hyperbolic term 'extreme'.

But let's look at the 'centre' as championed by Blair and Cameron.

Blair increased public spending, raised taxes, introduced the National Minimum Wage Act, The Human Rights Act, and the Freedom of Information Act. Brought in Civil Partnership. He helped negotiate the Good Friday Agreement.
He also sent British troops to die in 5 different conflicts.
So - Blair spent, spent, spent/taxed, taxed, taxed; interfered with the free market by setting a lower wage limit, introduced some 'snowflake' protections, and made govt a wee bit more transparent. Brought in some lefty 'social engineering'. Sat down with 'terrorists'.
Bit 'extreme' no?

And he went looking for wars. Wars that have forever tainted his legacy as earned him the unofficial title of 'war criminal'.
He lost 101 seats in a GE.

Cameron -
we'll brush his alleged drug use aside (as he did himself) and gloss over the whole who was paying the mortgage on his constituency house saga and pick a few highlights from his tenure as PM.
First 'hung' parliament since 1974 when he failed to get an over all majority.
Austerity.
Cuts.
More cuts.
Suspect deals with the Saudis
That referendum.
Bravely ran away from what he had caused.

I have to say - the centre hasn't exactly covered itself in glory.

Blair and his tainted legacy decimated Labour support.
Cameron's economic policies have caused untold misery so much so that Johnson is looking to implement some of Corbyn's policies from 2017. Must not forget how he opened the Tory door to the Right-wing.

Both of them have their fingerprints all over the conflicts raging in the Middle East. Iraq may be Blair's, but Cameron can proudly look at what is happening in Yemen and say 'I supported that'.

liamtech

Danzy wrote: »

That option will meet massive opposition in Westminster and significant opposition in Dublin and Brussels.

You propose that Dublin and Brussels do not favor a peoples vote? aka a second Brexit referendum on this deal verses Remaining??
What are you basing this on?

Zubeneschamali

Danzy wrote: »

That option will meet massive opposition in Westminster and significant opposition in Dublin and Brussels.

It isn't Dublin's or Brussels problem, and they will certainly extend A50 for long enough for a referendum if asked. They have as much as said so.

Westminster is the problem, as it has been since 2016.

markodaly

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

That is the electoral system you have. You vote for Kang or Kodos or you throw your vote away.

Unfortunately true, and the manifestation is, that there are more people afraid of Corbyn's version of extremism than Boris's version of extremism.

I'll be here come election night, saying, 'told you so'.

markodaly

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I am not upset. I am calling you on your use of the hyperbolic term 'extreme'.

But let's look at the 'centre' as championed by Blair and Cameron.

Blair increased public spending, raised taxes, introduced the National Minimum Wage Act, The Human Rights Act, and the Freedom of Information Act. Brought in Civil Partnership. He helped negotiate the Good Friday Agreement.
He also sent British troops to die in 5 different conflicts.
So - Blair spent, spent, spent/taxed, taxed, taxed; interfered with the free market by setting a lower wage limit, introduced some 'snowflake' protections, and made govt a wee bit more transparent. Brought in some lefty 'social engineering'. Sat down with 'terrorists'.
Bit 'extreme' no?

And he went looking for wars. Wars that have forever tainted his legacy as earned him the unofficial title of 'war criminal'.
He lost 101 seats in a GE.

Cameron -
we'll brush his alleged drug use aside (as he did himself) and gloss over the whole who was paying the mortgage on his constituency house saga and pick a few highlights from his tenure as PM.
First 'hung' parliament since 1974 when he failed to get an over all majority.
Austerity.
Cuts.
More cuts.
Suspect deals with the Saudis
That referendum.
Bravely ran away from what he had caused.

I have to say - the centre hasn't exactly covered itself in glory.

Blair and his tainted legacy decimated Labour support.
Cameron's economic policies have caused untold misery so much so that Johnson is looking to implement some of Corbyn's policies from 2017. Must not forget how he opened the Tory door to the Right-wing.

Both of them have their fingerprints all over the conflicts raging in the Middle East. Iraq may be Blair's, but Cameron can proudly look at what is happening in Yemen and say 'I supported that'.

Your post is a diatribe of what is wrong with populists today and also a key reason why the west is tearing itself apart. Everything is wrong and there are no redeeming quality to being moderate or centrist. So, they may as well vote for the extremist as it rocks the boat a bit.

So, ya, in your world the world is gone to hell in a handbasket (said every would-be revolutionary ever) and to restore its pride, dignity and to help the ordinary people we need to vote for THAT guy.

Am I doing it right so far?

Look, it doesn't matter what I tell you, because to you I am the enemy. You are not going to change my mind, and you have been drinking the kool-aid since the 70's so your mind is beyond changing.

But I promise you, Corbyn will never make it to No.10 downing street. EVER!
That does not give me pleasure by the way, as I do not want Brexit to happen and if Boris is returned with a majority, then it will happen and damage Ireland economically for a decade and harm its people.

But I guess once people are ideologically pure, that is what really matters in all this.

liamtech

markodaly wrote: »

Unfortunately true, and the manifestation is, that there are more people afraid of Corbyn's version of extremism than Boris's version of extremism.

I'll be here come election night, saying, 'told you so'.

If labour lose the election, then it will be as a result of the Labour party stance on Brexit - that is my view - and this is highlighted by Boris Johnson's clear attempt to frame tonight's debate on Brexit

https://news.sky.com/story/general-election-boris-johnson-challenges-jeremy-corbyn-ahead-of-first-tv-debate-11864488

If this election were all about the each parties manifestos (leaving Brexit aside) then why would Boris wish to solely concentrate on Brexit? If you can acknowledge this then you may see that your argument on 'extremism', as you see it, is not logical. Corbyn's Left Wing plans are only extreme when compared to Boris Johnsons Extreme Right Populist stance - Boris is a populist, and arguably an english nationalist - i find that extreme- extremity is in the eye of the beholder


As to saying you will be hear to say i 'told you so' - that is sadly another matter. In a FPTP election it is a 2 horse race (unless co-operation/pacts were at play on the remain side, which they are not, largely thanks to Corbyn in my view - and his only mistake, in my opinion)

Remains horse in this race is being ridden by a Euro-sceptic, and thats the mistake. I can see 51% voting for remain/soft-brexit parties - but Boris Getting a majority

I will be rooting for Corbyn tonight, and really hope that he embarrasses BoJo as much as possible - denying the Tory's their majority is the goal - In the election, a draw is a win for our side

Rjd2

liamtech wrote: »

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1196486781149089792


Should be a very interesting night with Bercow on Sky News!!

https://twitter.com/ArrowontheHill/status/1196514791470354432

I see Bercow ducked an interview where the BBC refused not to ask him questions about allegations of bullying. It would be great if someone in the commentary asked him about it no matter the result.

Not sure of the upside in the debate for Boris tonight, he is ahead in the polls and has not got a great record at debates unlike Corbyn who does pretty well in them no matter the opponent.

Steven Bush who is relatively neutral had a nuanced take on it.

Best case scenario for Boris is he survives and the poll numbers stay the same this weekend.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2019/11/six-reasons-why-boris-johnson-could-come-unstuck-tv-debates

Bannasidhe

markodaly wrote: »

Your post is a diatribe of what is wrong with populists today and also a key reason why the west is tearing itself apart. Everything is wrong and there are no redeeming quality to being moderate or centrist. So, they may as well vote for the extremist as it rocks the boat a bit.

So, ya, in your world the world is gone to hell in a handbasket (said every would-be revolutionary ever) and to restore its pride, dignity and to help the ordinary people we need to vote for THAT guy.

Am I doing it right so far?

Look, it doesn't matter what I tell you, because to you I am the enemy. You are not going to change my mind, and you have been drinking the kool-aid since the 70's so your mind is beyond changing.

But I promise you, Corbyn will never make it to No.10 downing street. EVER!
That does not give me pleasure by the way, as I do not want Brexit to happen and if Boris is returned with a majority, then it will happen and damage Ireland economically for a decade and harm its people.

But I guess once people are ideologically pure, that is what really matters in all this.

I've drunk the Kool Aid?

I suppose when you can't back up what you are 'telling me' with examples or evidence the next best option is to have a go at me.

I get it. You are going to keep saying 'extreme' and when questioned you will turn on the person asking the questions because you don't have any actual answers.

How very Tory of you. :P

liamtech

markodaly wrote: »

Your post is a diatribe of what is wrong with populists today and also a key reason why the west is tearing itself apart. Everything is wrong and there are no redeeming quality to being moderate or centrist. So, they may as well vote for the extremist as it rocks the boat a bit.

So, ya, in your world the world is gone to hell in a handbasket (said every would-be revolutionary ever) and to restore its pride, dignity and to help the ordinary people we need to vote for THAT guy.

Am I doing it right so far?

Look, it doesn't matter what I tell you, because to you I am the enemy. You are not going to change my mind, and you have been drinking the kool-aid since the 70's so your mind is beyond changing.

But I promise you, [point 1] Corbyn will never make it to No.10 downing street. EVER!
[point 2] That does not give me pleasure by the way, as I do not want Brexit to happen and if Boris is returned with a majority, then it will happen and damage Ireland economically for a decade and harm its people.

[point 3]But I guess once people are ideologically pure, that is what really matters in all this.

It sounds more like you are the one, who has been consuming Daily Express, Toryograph, and the right-wing media's stance on Corbyn, and his policies

There is nothing actually wrong, or incorrect about Corbyn's policies for the UK. And to attack the policies of the Left in the 40s, and 70s, is utter nonsense. Would you favor Thatcherism? taking the school children's milk away from them?

The 3 points i want to raise with you are these, and take it from someone who is closer to your opinion than perhaps you realize.

[1]I am critical of Corbyn mainly because i think it is a mistake to suggest that 'Any Brexit, even one negotiated by Him', is positive. My only other criticism, related to the above, is his unwillingness to work with other Anti-Brexit Parties (many of which would, ironically, support his type of Brexit, if it were the only way to avoid no deal). I believe it is faulty Electioneering to refuse to co-operate with the Unite To Remain Candidates


[2] You need to make a choice pal. Which is worse?

Perceived hypothetical damage, that you believe (having swallowed it whole-heartidly) will arise as a result of Corbyns policy on the economy and Some nationalization (and it is just that - some nationalization in terms of transport, and communication would be benefit in the UK - and here in my opinion)

-OR-

The Real Obvious Literal Damage that will occur when the Uk leaves with this hard Brexit? There is NO sensible argument for leaving the Cu/CM - the only argument in favor of it is coming from the ERG, TBP (who claim this deal is not even hard enough), and the DUP (who don't want NI insulated from the damage)

Those are the choices - pure and simple -

[3] You have clearly been sold a pup on ideology but lets assume for a moment that you are conservative or 'Center' as you keep saying. the path is clear. Get Brexit concluded cancelled by way of a second referendum. Live with 'Corbynomics' for a few years, and then Vote Lib dem, or possibly more appropriate to your position, a reformed proper One Nation Tory party, led by the Philip Hammond/Dominic Grieve style politicians - who will return if Boris is banjaxed by this election

The alternative in the FPTP system of the UK is that the Johnson Tory party moves further to the right than it even is now -

liamtech

liamtech wrote: »

The alternative in the FPTP system of the UK is that the Johnson Tory party moves further to the right than it even is now -

You seem to obsess over phrases like, "right-wing Tory party", and "further to the right".

The UK has been under Conservative governance for the past decade.

I can't help but notice that the UK is not on its economic knees.

Furthermore, "right-wing" is not a term of abuse.

I espouse right-wing economics because I believe it delivers the best outcomes when implemented in the most pragmatic way.

Zubeneschamali

markodaly wrote: »

Unfortunately true, and the manifestation is, that there are more people afraid of Corbyn's version of extremism than Boris's version of extremism.

If Johnson wins, the UK deserves its fate.

liamtech

Deleted User wrote: »

You seem to obsess over phrases like, "right-wing Tory party", and "further to the right".

The UK has been under Conservative governance for the past decade.

I can't help but notice that the UK is not on its economic knees.

Furthermore, "right-wing" is not a term of abuse.

I espouse right-wing economics because I believe it delivers the best outcomes when implemented in the most pragmatic way.

I see and you wouldn't differentiate between the Conservative party ten years ago, and the party today under Bojo? with the ERG center stage? You dont believe it has moved further right, or you acknowledge it has but believe it is good

Forgive me but between

(1) arguing for Brexit
(2) arguing against the European Union as an entity, and seeming to argue against international co-operation
(3) Espousing Neo-Realist/Classical Realist opinions on the flaws of Political Unions, but then refusing to acknowledge that, by accepting that co-operation is necessary
(3) arguing against immigration, harshly at first, but then back tracking again and discussing 'Quality' and 'Quantity' -
(4) seeming to be opposed to Scottish Independence, while acknowledging that it is their choice
(5) tacitly acknowledging they wont GET that choice under a Johnson Majority

Did i miss anything? Im sure i did so do please, correct me.

It is generally VERY difficult to see where you lie on many issues Eskimohunt - your clarification that you "espouse right-wing economics because (you) believe it delivers the best outcomes when implemented" - doesn't really clarify your position. i dare so Dominic Grieve, Rory Stewart, and Philip Hammond, would agree with you on that - but not on the rest

Danzy

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If Johnson wins, the UK deserves its fate.

If Johnson wins it will be because the Labour party have spent years giving 2 fingers to its base by letting its middle class membership go off on ideological and often contrary flights of fancy...

Going by the polls, Labour look like having bad nights every where but London.

What is amazing is that they will be genuinely stunned come the day after that they lost the Working Class.

They don't want to listen.

hometruths

The debate tonight should be fascinating. In my opinion this is a major opportunity for Corbyn and major potential banana skin for Johnson. I'd go as far as to say it is Corbyn's last chance to shift polling back towards Labour.

A lot will depend on how successfully Corbyn defends his Brexit stance. If he gets across "we are a party for everybody not just those who voted remain or leave" he will have a good night.

If however he comes across as evasive on the subject then he's toast IMO.

sid waddell

Deleted User wrote: »

You seem to obsess over phrases like, "right-wing Tory party", and "further to the right".

The UK has been under Conservative governance for the past decade.

I can't help but notice that the UK is not on its economic knees.

Furthermore, "right-wing" is not a term of abuse.

I espouse right-wing economics because I believe it delivers the best outcomes when implemented in the most pragmatic way.

One of the main reasons Brexiteers give for the Leave vote is that Britain is on its knees economically.

Then when it comes to party politics, they suddenly perform a 180, surprise surprise.

You can't have it both ways.

The Tories do nothing for the working classes and never have - they just dog whistle about immigrants.

sid waddell

After a Tory candidate in Aberdeen being outed as Holocaust denier, and another Tory candidate in Leeds saying that British Jews are going to Israel and coming back "brainwashed", as well as the anti-Semitism of Michael Gove a couple of weeks ago where he equated Jews with Israel, would it be fair to say that the Tories are an institutionally anti-Semitic party?

They're certainly an instututionally racist and Islamophobic party.

Unless 60% of Tory members having anti-Muslim views isn't counted as Islamophobic.

And there is precisely no version of reality in where 60% of the members are Islamophobic and coontinually refuses to hold an inquiry about suchnot institutionally Islamophobic.

Joe_ Public

sid waddell wrote: »

After a Tory candidate in Aberdeen being outed as Holocaust denier, and another Tory candidate in Leeds saying that British Jews are going to Israel and coming back "brainwashed", as well as the anti-Semitism of Michael Gove a couple of weeks ago where he equated Jews with Israel, would it be fair to say that the Tories are an institutionally anti-Semitic party?

They're certainly an instututionally racist and Islamophobic party.

Unless 60% of Tory members having anti-Muslim views isn't counted as Islamophobic.

And there is precisely no version of reality in where 60% of the members are Islamophobic and coontinually refuses to hold an inquiry about suchnot institutionally Islamophobic.

UK society has a big issue and it is reflected in both the main parties. Labour suffering electorally is the one big difference. I doubt even Johnson would have the brass neck to go on the attack tonight in relation to labours Antisemitism issues but wouldnt put it past him at the same time.

sid waddell

Joe_ Public wrote: »

UK society has a big issue and it is reflected in both the main parties. Labour suffering electorally is the one big difference. I doubt even Johnson would have the brass neck to go on the attack tonight in relation to labours Antisemitism issues but wouldnt put it past him at the same time.

Johnson has gone on the record to call gay men "tank topped bumboys, compared same sex marriage to bestiality, and referred to "flag waving piccaninnies with water melon smiles" and referred to Muslim women as letterboxes.

Corbyn is a lifelong anti-racist, whereas Johnson is a lifelong spoofer who has a long record of making deliberately racist and homophobic remarks. In the real world, people like that are referred to as racists and homophobes.

https://www.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-record-sexist-homophobic-and-racist-comments-bumboys-piccaninnies-2019-6?r=US&IR=T

Leroy42

Deleted User wrote: »

You seem to obsess over phrases like, "right-wing Tory party", and "further to the right".

The UK has been under Conservative governance for the past decade.

I can't help but notice that the UK is not on its economic knees.

Furthermore, "right-wing" is not a term of abuse.

I espouse right-wing economics because I believe it delivers the best outcomes when implemented in the most pragmatic way.

Massive increase in foodbanks. Massive reduction in spending on services. 21K plus police gone. Waiting lists for NHS longest in history. Just missed a recession. Massive issues in many areas outside London. Terrible functioning and expensive public transport.

It is not on its knees for you, but the UK is very much staggering at the moment. Remember, that history, language and location gives the UK a ready made advantage over many countries and yet still it is in the place it is in.

ancapailldorcha

markodaly wrote: »

Look, it doesn't matter what I tell you, because to you I am the enemy. You are not going to change my mind, and you have been drinking the kool-aid since the 70's so your mind is beyond changing.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

How very Tory of you. :P

Cut out this petty nonsense please.

ancapailldorcha

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If Johnson wins, the UK deserves its fate.

I'd love to argue otherwise but we have a lot more facts here than we did in 2017. If he wins.... I think it's gg for the remain side.

Joe_ Public

sid waddell wrote: »

Johnson has gone on the record to call gay men "tank topped bumboys, compared same sex marriage to bestiality, and referred to "flag waving piccaninnies with water melon smiles" and referred to Muslim women as letterboxes.

Corbyn is a lifelong anti-racist, whereas Johnson is a lifelong spoofer who has a long record of making deliberately racist and homophobic remarks. In the real world, people like that are referred to as racists and homophobes.

https://www.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-record-sexist-homophobic-and-racist-comments-bumboys-piccaninnies-2019-6?r=US&IR=T

Hardly need a history lesson on boris johnsons bigotry and prejudice at this stage. Trouble is the electorate doesnt seem to mind all that much. Whereas labours issues have all too easily been used to whip up a huge level of hysteria against corbyn. I have sympathy for that but there is also the reality that he is at least partially responsible for that in not getting to grips with it until so much of the damage had been done.

sid waddell

The Tory candidate in Ashfield is literally calling for the introduction of forced labour camps - but sure, hey it's the Tories, not Labour, who have the interests of the working class at heart.


And the fox has interest of the hens at heart, yeah.


https://twitter.com/olivertimprice/status/1196697640764878848