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General Election December, 2019 (U.K.)

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    #272
    quokula
    Registered Users Posts: 3,579 ✭✭✭quokula


    https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-50409441

    Lib Dems at it again. A constituency where the Tories beat Labour by a couple of hundred votes, both on ~25,000 while the Lib Dems are on ~1,000, yet they've managed to get some dodgy polling and massage the numbers to put out leaflets trying to convince Labour voters that the only way to stop the Tories is to tactically vote Liberal Democrat.

    Charles Kennedy must be turning in his grave at what that party has become.


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    #273
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,593 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    quokula wrote: »
    https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-50409441

    Lib Dems at it again. A constituency where the Tories beat Labour by a couple of hundred votes, both on ~25,000 while the Lib Dems are on ~1,000, yet they've managed to get some dodgy polling and massage the numbers to put out leaflets trying to convince Labour voters that the only way to stop the Tories is to tactically vote Liberal Democrat.

    Charles Kennedy must be turning in his grave at what that party has become.

    I mean, Labour, they'd never do something similar would they?

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/18041196.election-labour-graph-claiming-3-snp-support-sent-scots-homes/

    Oh, wait....


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    #274
    quokula
    Registered Users Posts: 3,579 ✭✭✭quokula


    devnull wrote: »
    I mean, Labour, they'd never do something similar would they?

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/18041196.election-labour-graph-claiming-3-snp-support-sent-scots-homes/

    Oh, wait....

    That's a poll showing the actual national election result, and saying that Labour are the only ones who can beat the Tories nationally, which is true. It's also campaign material in a Labour / SNP marginal where voters don't need to vote tactically on a local level and instead need to think about which MP would best serve their interests in Westminster.

    Surely you can see that there's a big difference between a graph that is literally showing the actual previous election result, and one that's based on a poll with a misleading question, run by a non-registered pollster, on a tiny sample size, claiming to be the state of the polls for that specific constituency.

    It is amusing that even in the link you posted, the reader who didn't approve of the leaflet described it as being "like the Lib Dems" because they've now become a byword for dishonesty.


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    #275
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    ArmaniJeanss wrote: »
    Are the Conservatives going to even bother with a manifesto?
    I suspect they think a manifesto can only lose them votes from here, so sticking with Get Brexit Done and allowing ministers to promise anything (by definition not costed or subject to forensic analysis) in interviews may be something they see as a winning strategy.

    "An uncosted shambles," was one of the verdicts i recall on their 2017 manifesto which they had to immediately ditch on their calamitous social care policy which basically cost them their chance of a majority.

    So that disaster is patently driving strategy now. No manifesto or at least not until very close to polling day and so vague as to leave no opening for ridicule. Johnson spends more time attacking labour policy than articulating his own which assuages cchq fears of him putting his big size 12 clown shoes in it. Should just about get him home, or so they hope anyway.


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    #276
    Letwin_Larry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Letwin_Larry


    devnull wrote: »
    I don't know any centist in the UK who is thinking of voting Labour, in fact I know more who are going to vote Tory, some for the first time in their life as they see Corbyn as a throwback to decades ago. Personally If I was registered to vote in the UK I could never vote Tory, but as someone who voted Labour in the past, I could never vote for them either at the moment because just as I can't support fully fledged right wing politics, I can't support all out left wing either.

    As I've stated further up the thread, you have two extremes, one says that private companies are essentially evil and must be banned, taxed to high heaven with the anti business policies and resultant loss of jobs with every service must be nationalised and are economically illterate and living in the past and another one who wants to decimate workers rights, tax the largest companies virtually nothing and make life better for the wealthy few and carry on with a crippling decentralisation agenda which has crippled the education system with the failed academy system and destroyed public services.

    There is room for something in the middle, not to either extreme and that is why I would vote Lib Dems. I would not vote for the Lib Dems with any great passion, but they are the only party that is anywhere near the centre in England and for moderates and centerists like me, who would have tradionally always voted Labour, they really are the only choice. A Centre left Labour would get my vote, but simply put, this Labour party is not a centre left.

    i agree the UK electorate is faced with a terrible choice of PM imo. it seems to me as if both parties Tory & Lab have been taken over by the extremes within their respective parties, and those espousing a more moderate sensible centre ground have been thrown out &/or silenced.
    if you take Blair & Cameron, they were virtually indistinguishable, but now they've gone the crazies have taken over.
    like i've said before if i were a UK voter i think it would be tempting to stay at home and not vote.


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    #277
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,593 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    quokula wrote: »
    It is amusing that even in the link you posted, the reader who didn't approve of the leaflet described it as being "like the Lib Dems" because they've now become a byword for dishonesty.

    And you think Labour are always honest, upfront and open about everything? I can tell you that they are not. I've seen Jeremy Corbyn tweeting and retweeting things and then doing the exact opposite. I've also seen him complaining about how certain outlets treat their workers and how he won't support it, only to see him buying stuff from the very same place, perhaps bought by his handlers.

    All that Labour are to me is economically illiterate, stuck in the past and out of touch with the world as it currently is and they have a serious problem with anti-semitism, which as someone who has been to Auschwitz and have family links to some Jews, is absloutely disgusting. I have no time for extremists of any side, be they left wing or right wing. I'm no massive fan of the Lib Dems, but in the absence of anyone else moderate to vote for, they'd get my vote.

    That's what Corbyn supporters don't seem to understand, they keep hassling us centerists and saying we are letting the Tories win, but at the end of the day most people like me just cannot stomach voting for Corbyn and that is the reason why he's going to get hammered at the next general election. Blaming centerists for not voting for Corbyhn is pathetic, he actually has to win their vote, which he has failed to do time and time again.

    It's time Momentum stopped playing the victim and instead of blaming the voter, actually realise that even with the worst government the UK has ever had, Corbyn can never win an election because not enough people will vote for him in order for that to happen. It was tough beforehand, but hs Brexit sitting on the fence routime finished any very minor chance he had left as he's successfully managed to alienate the remain voters as well as the centerists.


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    #278
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    devnull wrote: »
    And you think Labour are always honest, upfront and open about everything? I can tell you that they are not. I've seen Jeremy Corbyn tweeting and retweeting things and then doing the exact opposite. I've also seen him complaining about how certain outlets treat their workers and how he won't support it, only to see him buying stuff from the very same place, perhaps bought by his handlers.

    All that Labour are to me is economically illiterate, stuck in the past and out of touch with the world as it currently is and they have a serious problem with anti-semitism, which as someone who has been to Auschwitz and have family links to some Jews, is absloutely disgusting. I have no time for extremists of any side, be they left wing or right wing. I'm no massive fan of the Lib Dems, but in the absence of anyone else moderate to vote for, they'd get my vote.

    That's what Corbyn supporters don't seem to understand, they keep hassling us centerists and saying we are letting the Tories win, but at the end of the day most people like me just cannot stomach voting for Corbyn and that is the reason why he's going to get hammered at the next general election. Blaming centerists for not voting for Corbyhn is pathetic, he actually has to win their vote, which he has failed to do time and time again.

    It's time Momentum stopped playing the victim and instead of blaming the voter, actually realise that even with the worst government the UK has ever had, Corbyn can never win an election because not enough people will vote for him in order for that to happen. It was tough beforehand, but hs Brexit sitting on the fence routime finished any very minor chance he had left as he's successfully managed to alienate the remain voters as well as the centerists.

    I have to say that on reading your various posts you don't come across as particularly 'Moderate' imo, you come across as a Blairite. By which I mean a 'supporter' of the Labour Party who is terrified of actual socialism but who gravitated to the LP only because the Whigs of old were no more.

    If you think the current LP is extreme I suggest you avoid Scandinavian countries as they will blow your mind with their extremism.
    Scotland too - the SNP is also 'extreme'.

    As for much of your criticism - it doesn't make sense. It comes across as a bit of a stream of consciousness rant.
    Take for example this comment:
    I've also seen him complaining about how certain outlets treat their workers and how he won't support it, only to see him buying stuff from the very same place, perhaps bought by his handlers.

    Seems 'damning' but makes no sense - did you 'see' him buy it?
    Who actually bought it? Him or his 'handlers'? Surely if you 'saw' him but it you would know who bought it?

    See, I have to say - I don't think you ever were a Labour supporter, I think you may have possibly voted for the LP when the Whiggish Blair was leader but at heart you are a Swinson Lib-Dem and so here you are attacking Corbyn but being rather spare with providing an alternative that doesn't mean a Tory government.


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    #279
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    devnull wrote: »
    That's what Corbyn supporters don't seem to understand, they keep hassling us centerists and saying we are letting the Tories win, but at the end of the day most people like me just cannot stomach voting for Corbyn and that is the reason why he's going to get hammered at the next general election.

    So the Corbyn supporters are accusing you of letting the Tories win, but in fact you are just making sure Corbyn loses?


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    #280
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,815 ✭✭✭hometruths


    devnull wrote:
    It's time Momentum stopped playing the victim and instead of blaming the voter, actually realise that even with the worst government the UK has ever had, Corbyn can never win an election because not enough people will vote for him in order for that to happen.

    Agreed. And right on cue:
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    See, I have to say - I don't think you ever were a Labour supporter, I think you may have possibly voted for the LP when the Whiggish Blair was leader but at heart you are a Swinson Lib-Dem and so here you are attacking Corbyn but being rather spare with providing an alternative that doesn't mean a Tory government.

    QED.


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    #281
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,454 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    quokula wrote: »
    https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-50409441

    Lib Dems at it again. A constituency where the Tories beat Labour by a couple of hundred votes, both on ~25,000 while the Lib Dems are on ~1,000, yet they've managed to get some dodgy polling and massage the numbers to put out leaflets trying to convince Labour voters that the only way to stop the Tories is to tactically vote Liberal Democrat.

    Charles Kennedy must be turning in his grave at what that party has become.

    It is almost as if they want to be in a position to put their policies in to action.


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    #282
    quokula
    Registered Users Posts: 3,579 ✭✭✭quokula


    Danzy wrote: »
    It is almost as if they want to be in a position to put their policies in to action.

    Assuming their policies are the same as the Tory candidate they're handing that constituency to, then yes, they're doing a good job by purposely deceiving the voters there. Of course with Swinson's voting record and the number of her front bench MPs who were literally voted in as Tories then that does kind of make sense.


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    #283
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,454 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    So the Corbyn supporters are accusing you of letting the Tories win, but in fact you are just making sure Corbyn loses?

    There is a great purity and sanctity in opposition and always falling short.

    Striving for governing power, delivering bits of your vision, having to give ground on other pieces, doing things you dislike, all of these are divisive, leading to splits, etc.

    Yell your vote what to think what you'll do and see how it goes is much safer.


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    #284
    Letwin_Larry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Letwin_Larry


    i think Napoleon once said the best type of General was a lucky one.
    if Boris has one 'er "quality" then it must be luck.

    if he faced any other Lab leader from the past 50 years (even Michael Foot!), then i believe he would be exposed for what he is. but as luck would have it he is facing probably the single most un-electable Lab leader in living memory. all Boris has to do, is do nothing imo. just don't do anything so ridiculous as to render him worse than Mr. Corbyn.
    and given his clumsy nature and the near scandals he's been associated with, you have to be pretty blind not to realise that Mr. Corbyn has set the bar at an all-time low.

    make no mistake Boris is lucky, and has been lucky most of his life and if he can just keep that good fortune going for another few short weeks, then he'll be the next PM.


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    #285
    liamtech
    Registered Users Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭liamtech


    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1196486781149089792


    Should be a very interesting night with Bercow on Sky News!!

    Sic semper tyrannis - thus always to Tyrants



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    #286
    Letwin_Larry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Letwin_Larry


    ITV’s election debate between Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn will go ahead on Tuesday evening as scheduled after the Liberal Democrats and Scottish National party failed to convince the high court in London that their party leaders – Jo Swinson and Nicola Sturgeon – should be included.

    After hearing legal arguments all day, two senior judges, Lord Justice Davis and Mr Justice Warby, ruled that because the broadcasting company was not exercising “a public function” it was not liable to judicial review challenge in the courts.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/18/lib-dems-and-snp-lose-high-court-bid-over-tv-election-debate


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    #287
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,593 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I have to say that on reading your various posts you don't come across as particularly 'Moderate' imo, you come across as a Blairite. By which I mean a 'supporter' of the Labour Party who is terrified of actual socialism but who gravitated to the LP only because the Whigs of old were no more.

    If you think the current LP is extreme I suggest you avoid Scandinavian countries as they will blow your mind with their extremism.
    Scotland too - the SNP is also 'extreme'.

    As for much of your criticism - it doesn't make sense. It comes across as a bit of a stream of consciousness rant. Take for example this comment:

    Seems 'damning' but makes no sense - did you 'see' him buy it?
    Who actually bought it? Him or his 'handlers'? Surely if you 'saw' him but it you would know who bought it?

    See, I have to say - I don't think you ever were a Labour supporter, I think you may have possibly voted for the LP when the Whiggish Blair was leader but at heart you are a Swinson Lib-Dem and so here you are attacking Corbyn but being rather spare with providing an alternative that doesn't mean a Tory government.

    And this is the kind of attitude that you display that the Labour party has displayed that has driven many centerists away. Momentum have turned the party toxic and start to personally attack anyone who doesn't subscribe to their view, saying they are not real voters, they never voted for Labour anyway and all this rubbish that you have just spouted, calling me a liar and insulating that I have made things up when I would never do such a thing because I have no reason to do so.

    This approach is never going to win such people like me around and just makes me even less likely to vote Labour if I indeed had a vote, Momentum is toxic and has destroyed the Labour part and turned it into a hard left party who basically is more focused on giving the moderates a kicking in their own party, belittling them and trying to force them out rather than actually having a serious go and trying to get some power.

    I have no desire to debate with you anymore when you are not willing to have a proper and honest conversation about this and just resort to attacking me rather than debating the issues at hand. I just feel very sorry that the choice that the UK electorate have is so bad. A good leader would be popular with the electorate but Corbyn just isn't and the Conservatives will target that and are doing so very effectively, as much as I hate to say it.


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    #288
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,454 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    devnull wrote: »
    And this is the kind of attitude that you display that the Labour party has displayed that has driven many centerists away. Momentum have turned the party toxic and start to personally attack anyone who doesn't subscribe to their view, saying they are not real voters, they never voted for Labour anyway and all this rubbish that you have just spouted, calling me a liar and insulating that I have made things up when I would never do such a thing because I have no reason to do so.

    This approach is never going to win such people like me around and just makes me even less likely to vote Labour if I indeed had a vote, Momentum is toxic and has destroyed the Labour part and turned it into a hard left party who basically is more focused on giving the moderates a kicking in their own party, belittling them and trying to force them out rather than actually having a serious go and trying to get some power.

    I have no desire to debate with you anymore when you are not willing to have a proper and honest conversation about this and just resort to attacking me rather than debating the issues at hand. I just feel very sorry that the choice that the UK electorate have is so bad. A good leader would be popular with the electorate but Corbyn just isn't and the Conservatives will target that and are doing so very effectively, as much as I hate to say it.

    This all day long.

    The right looks for converts, the left looks for heretics.

    Add in the modern Left seem to hate much of their own base more than anyone else.


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    #289
    Letwin_Larry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Letwin_Larry


    Danzy wrote: »
    This all day long.

    The right looks for converts, the left looks for heretics.

    Add in the modern Left seem to hate much of their own base more than anyone else.

    is it any wonder large sections of the working class vote is not behind Lab.
    i recall through work meeting a few Lab activists in London in the 80s when i was still little more than a lefty student. it was at the height of the IRA bombing campaign, the B'ham 6 had just been freed, Thatcher was in power and it was not a good time to be Irish there.

    the vicious contempt they held many working people in was breathtaking. anyone or anybody that did not subscribe to their hard left views were viewed as worse than the Tories. Workers of the world unite my arse, they had particular contempt for us Irish.

    they made little or no attempt to persuade me of their views, but just spewed out bile and hatred.


    this toxicity has been part n' parcel of Lab left for years, but under Mr. corbyn these elements have been allowed gain a stranglehold on the party.


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    #290
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,454 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Letwin_Larry wrote: »
    is it any wonder large sections of the working class vote is not behind Lab.
    i recall through work meeting a few Lab activists in London in the 80s when i was still little more than a lefty student. it was at the height of the IRA bombing campaign, the B'ham 6 had just been freed, Thatcher was in power and it was not a good time to be Irish there.

    the vicious contempt they held many working people in was breathtaking. anyone or anybody that did not subscribe to their hard left views were viewed as worse than the Tories. Workers of the world unite my arse, they had particular contempt for us Irish.

    they made little or no attempt to persuade me of their views, but just spewed out bile and hatred.


    this toxicity has been part n' parcel of Lab left for years, but under Mr. corbyn these elements have been allowed gain a stranglehold on the party.

    I'd be quite left economically and on many social issues.

    I'm only amazed that the Working Class in Britain stuck with Labour for so long, I'm equally amazed that people are surprised why the Tories are so ahead across the Working Class.

    Doesn't mean they like the Tories.


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    #291
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,522 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Find Laura Keunsberg has really passed the point of no return.
    Whether it is the case or not, but I cannot but see a bias in most of her tweets in favour of the Tories at this point.
    Can't blame her for having an affinity with one party or another, she's human and a UK citizen after all but given the very senior role which she holds, I am fairly surprised to see her tweet as she does.

    I'm not the only one, many of her tweets are getting as many responses as likes which is a strong indicator that it is not overly well received. Many of these responses do refer to her allegiance with many suggesting it is the entire BBC and not just her that is biased.

    It is this final point which is the reason why I am surprised, her behaviour is strongly influencing how her company is perceived which cannot be ideal for it.


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    #292
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,140 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Letwin_Larry wrote: »
    is it any wonder large sections of the working class vote is not behind Lab.
    i recall through work meeting a few Lab activists in London in the 80s when i was still little more than a lefty student. it was at the height of the IRA bombing campaign, the B'ham 6 had just been freed, Thatcher was in power and it was not a good time to be Irish there.

    the vicious contempt they held many working people in was breathtaking. anyone or anybody that did not subscribe to their hard left views were viewed as worse than the Tories. Workers of the world unite my arse, they had particular contempt for us Irish.

    they made little or no attempt to persuade me of their views, but just spewed out bile and hatred.


    this toxicity has been part n' parcel of Lab left for years, but under Mr. corbyn these elements have been allowed gain a stranglehold on the party.


    About a quarter of the working class voted for the Cons in all of the post war elections.

    And more women voted for the Conservatives over Labour in the same period. I think 1997 and 2001 were the only exceptions to this.

    The Tories are and always have been an electoral success story.

    We need a new thread to explain why.


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    #293
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    schmittel wrote: »
    Agreed. And right on cue:



    QED.

    How is saying a person is at heart a Whig an attack exactly?
    I also fail to see how pointing out an aversion to socialist viewpoints being express by the leader of the Labour Party is to echo the view point of the Blairites is an attack.
    Nor is it an attack to say constantly criticising Corbyn for vague and unsupported by evidence 'reasons' is to play into the hands of the Tories.

    I don't give a flying monkey's if a person is a Lib-Dem or a Tory or lefty Pinko Commie but when all a poster offers is criticism while offering nothing of sustenance as to what 'their' side would do then I will comment on that lack.
    Calling that comment an 'attack' simply highlights the deficit in their 'argument' as it contains no actual refutation.


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    #294
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,522 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    About a quarter of the working class vote for the Cons in all of the post war elections.

    And more women vote for the Conservatives over Labour in the same period.

    The Tories are and always have been an electoral success story.

    We need a new thread to explain why.

    Well, apart from 1997 - 2010 and previously 1964 - 1979.


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    #295
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,815 ✭✭✭hometruths


    What Corbyn's Labour have forgotten, (and also Hilary Clinton's US election campaign), is that unlike the customer, the voter is never wrong.

    If you are seeking election and cannot attract enough votes to get elected, it is not the voter that is at fault.

    It is the candidate.


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    #296
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,140 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Well, apart from 1997 - 2010 and previously 1964 - 1979.

    No even in the elections of the 60s and 70s, more women voted for the Tories than Labour.


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    #297
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,522 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    No even in the elections of the 60s and 70s, more women voted for the Tories than Labour.

    So? Elections aren't just about how a particular gender votes.
    Since the suffragette movement anyway, so most of them probably were in fairness.


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    #298
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    devnull wrote: »
    And this is the kind of attitude that you display that the Labour party has displayed that has driven many centerists away. Momentum have turned the party toxic and start to personally attack anyone who doesn't subscribe to their view, saying they are not real voters, they never voted for Labour anyway and all this rubbish that you have just spouted, calling me a liar and insulating that I have made things up when I would never do such a thing because I have no reason to do so.

    This approach is never going to win such people like me around and just makes me even less likely to vote Labour if I indeed had a vote, Momentum is toxic and has destroyed the Labour part and turned it into a hard left party who basically is more focused on giving the moderates a kicking in their own party, belittling them and trying to force them out rather than actually having a serious go and trying to get some power.

    I have no desire to debate with you anymore when you are not willing to have a proper and honest conversation about this and just resort to attacking me rather than debating the issues at hand. I just feel very sorry that the choice that the UK electorate have is so bad. A good leader would be popular with the electorate but Corbyn just isn't and the Conservatives will target that and are doing so very effectively, as much as I hate to say it.

    I am not a member of the Labour Party.
    I left when Kinnock began to drive the socialists away. I am completely up front about that.
    I left the LP (and the UK) before some of the people here commenting on the LP were even born so I can hardly be described as a supporter of momentum.

    I also have zero skin in the game. It make no difference to my life who wins.

    But I would be interested to read a post from you that isn't an attack on the British LP. Perhaps you would tell us who you would vote for and why?

    All these attacks on Labour by the Tories and the Lib-Dems makes me ponder why are they so frit.


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    #299
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,140 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Tell me how wrote: »
    So? Elections aren't just about how a particular gender votes.
    Since the suffragette movement anyway, so most of them probably were in fairness.

    I'm not sure how I respond to this.

    I was pointing out that the Tories are an electoral machine. They attract more women voters than the Labour the party, even when the Labour party is traditional seen as the pro woman party.


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    #300
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,522 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    I'm not sure how I respond to this.

    I was pointing out that the Tories are an electoral machine. They attract more women voters than the Labour the party, even when the Labour party is traditional seen as the pro woman party.

    Maybe by not suggesting a party who didn't claim government for two periods of 16 and 13 years within the period of the last 55 years are an electoral machine.

    Doesn't matter if a particular demographic vote for them, to call them a machine would imply relentless success broken only by a random shock event if at all.


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    #301
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,815 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I am not a member of the Labour Party.
    I left when Kinnock began to drive the socialists away. I am completely up front about that.
    I left the LP (and the UK) before some of the people here commenting on the LP were even born so I can hardly be described as a supporter of momentum.

    I also have zero skin in the game. It make no difference to my life who wins.

    But I would be interested to read a post from you that isn't an attack on the British LP. Perhaps you would tell us who you would vote for and why?

    All these attacks on Labour by the Tories and the Lib-Dems makes me ponder why are they so frit.

    Perhaps it would be worthwhile to read these posts a bit more carefully before you take a poster to task:
    devnull wrote:
    There is room for something in the middle, not to either extreme and that is why I would vote Lib Dems. I would not vote for the Lib Dems with any great passion, but they are the only party that is anywhere near the centre in England and for moderates and centerists like me, who would have tradionally always voted Labour, they really are the only choice.


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