Update - Lawn ruined by cattle

Ginger83

pablo128 wrote: »

He wants to enjoy sitting out in the sun on his manicured landscaped lawn which he paid a lot of money for, and which he previously had repaired at his own expense due to a similar situation with the same farmer, if I'm not mistaken.

Something which he can't do now. He can't even have the grass cut ffs.

That was my plan

Sheep breeder

Ginger83 wrote: »

Yes we are trying to send a clear message to the land owner but the ironic thing is the land is still not fenced off very well.

It will be an even dearer mistake if it happens again because next time we are having the lawns fully relaid.

Would you thing after all the hassle and stress with this case, would not be a good plan to fix up your own fence to avoid another problem.

Ard_MC

pablo128 wrote: »

He wants to enjoy sitting out in the sun on his manicured landscaped lawn which he paid a lot of money for, and which he previously had repaired at his own expense due to a similar situation with the same farmer, if I'm not mistaken.

Something which he can't do now. He can't even have the grass cut ffs.

Fair enough. I am sorry I only skimmed through through this and got the impression some one was terminally ill.
Is this correct or not?

Ginger83

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Would you thing after all the hassle and stress with this case, would not be a good plan to fix up your own fence to avoid another problem.

We have

Ginger83

Ard_MC wrote: »

Fair enough. I am sorry I only skimmed through through this and got the impression some one was terminally ill.
Is this correct or not?

Correct

Ard_MC

Ginger83 wrote: »

Yes i'm trying to enjoy my time left in my garden hence spending 3k on a robot

I am sorry for your troubles. I have watched people in your position a few times in my life and to be honest when the time comes they were not worried about a robot.

Enjoy what time you have left.

mickdw

Ard_MC wrote: »

I am sorry for your troubles. I have watched people in your position a few times in my life and to be honest when the time comes they were not worried about a robot.

Enjoy what time you have left.

Disgusting comment.

Ard_MC

mickdw wrote: »

Disgusting comment.

Wasn't meant to be. Sorry for the offence caused.

Sheep breeder

John Hutton wrote: »

You are confused and incorrect about how bankruptcy works.

Secured creditors retain their rights in bankruptcy, unless they surrender their interest, and the official assignee seeks to get a return for unsecured creditors by liquidating assets and attaching payment orders on income. It's not the case that all secured debts have to be discharged before unsecured get anything.

It's a disaster for a farmer to go bankrupt as it messes up any payments as he would no longer own the land or, the lease for the land, or any animals, any quotas etc. Farmers are somewhat unlucky in this area as the dept have such good records, and the farmer has to supply such detailed applications and accounts, it is easy to identify assets.

It is also an automatic default on any mortgages he has, and the bank, especially BOI, tend to immediately call them in. Should the secured creditor sell the asset and there be a shortfall, this crystallises into an unsecured debt and the creditor can make a claim in the bankruptcy estate the same as any other unsecured creditor.

There is also more to be said about the expenses and professional fees you mention, I won't go into too much detail as the amount the OP is owed is too small for petition the farmer in any case, BUT in a straightforward case such as a farmer with easily identifiable assets the OAs fees are only a few grand and would be taken from the pool of money raised for unsecured creditors or indeed simply taken from unclaimed dividends, there wouldn't be additional costs on the OP.

Should the OP ever petition the farmer and he be named on the court list as such, he would have the money he is owed the next day. Before the law was changed there would be piles of applications before the court for pretty trifling sums which would invariably be struck out when the petitioner got his cash. But it was changed to 20k so that's a more difficult tactic now!

As for the sheriff, he or she will not do anything without you sitting on them. Find out when the farmer plans to send the cattle to the factory, alert the sherrif of same and your concern that the farmer is disposing of assets to avoid paying debt. Might spur him on and at the very least would let the sherrif know that you are looking at things and won't go away.

Although, it will lead to you being ostracised if it leads to assets, particularly animals, being seized.

Next time he sends a proxy to contact you tell them that you are stuck for the money and the sheriff has been on to you about seizing assets and has asked you if you have any objection to the sherrif seizing animals. Tell the proxy that you told the sherrif that you have no objection as, in your condition, you need the money but you asked the sherrif to leave it until after the Xmas season until you have a chance to discuss it with other locals/farmers re the value of the animals and how long it would take to sell them. (I.e would the sherrif be better seizing equipment and would he be able to sell that quicker and thus you get the money quicker).

Tell him that you are disgusted it came to this but you need the money and that you are aware the farmer has cash at the moment (he will have received his payments in December!) and that you are due to get back into the sherrif in the coming weeks after you discuss it with locals and would like to call the sherrif off but can only do so if you get the cash.

The farmer will be terrified of being humiliated at the Mart... This is your best bet for getting the money quick.

A few things to bear in mind when dealing with farmers:

1. They have decent piles of cash at certain times of year
2. Never as poor as they say
3. Will always chance their arm when it comes to paying ONE-OFF bills when there's nothing in it for them
4. Massively into keeping up appearances as they secretly hate neighbouring farmers and would loath to lose face in front of them
5. Farmers are emotionally invested in their business, particularly animals and their land. They will cut their nose to spite their face when it comes to these things.

So if you want the money make him afraid that others will think that he will lose his animals or land or make him afraid that this will actually happen. The former is easier!

Fairly sure animals can’t be seized due to movement permits and health status which a sheriff is not able to obtain with out the herd owner filling out the correct paperwork.

Ginger83

Ard_MC wrote: »

I am sorry for your troubles. I have watched people in your position a few times in my life and to be honest when the time comes they were not worried about a robot.

Enjoy what time you have left.

Thank it is what it is.

I'd just like to enjoy my garden..

What do you think i should do with the robot? Bin it?

Dinzee Conlee

OP - I wish you well with both your battle to get paid, and your ill health...

But I have to ask, what is the point of this thread now?

Galwayguy35

Good to hear someone getting a result, I woke up one morning to find my lawn ruined by cattle but I never found out who they belonged to and had to foot the bill myself.

An Ri rua

maidhc wrote: »

That's not correct. A covenant runs with the land. Don't make stuff up.

To the poster above who said I don't understand backruptcy law I think his response actually mirrored my own post, ie that it is not a runner and a idea to be confined to the dustbin. But I dont practice in bankruptcy law, and you will note my post didnt elaborate on it. A secured creditor will trump the unsecured creditors though...


On a practical level if a person is owed money by a farmer and has an order often the most elegant and quickest way is to get a garnishee order directed to the coop and dept. You are directing payment of the milk cheque and/or bps. This is what most contractors, oil companies and even the frs ultimately do.

Anyway I'm done here. I think the OP should get legal advice ultimately.

This is correct. A garnishee order is the tool of choice of large oil distributors and the costs for it will be gouged from him also.
It's a real pity for all concerned. You could perhaps have that communicated to him one last time, that that is your next step, the practical realities of that and that you'd rather bring this to a close now.

Wishing you the very best for 2020. You're right to fight your corner, but get this resolved pronto. For all your sales.

Ginger83

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

OP - I wish you well with both your battle to get paid, and your ill health...

But I have to ask, what is the point of this thread now?

Thanks it was meant to be an update but i did not want to be rude by not answering everyone

ganmo

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Fairly sure animals can’t be seized due to movement permits and health status which a sheriff is not able to obtain with out the herd owner filling out the correct paperwork.

it can be done...just not the first option
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/herd-of-cattle-seized-by-criminal-assets-bureau-over-unpaid-taxes-1.2958076
its often done that the cattle are seized but remain at the farm until sold. THe sherif will have to ensure the dept are on board though

Ard_MC

Ginger83 wrote: »

Thank it is what it is.

I'd just like to enjoy my garden..

What do you think i should do with the robot? Bin it?

Nope, that's what brings you peace at this time. Most definitely not.

Get some1 to fill in the damage so it can work. And enjoy your garden.

And yes I know you shouldn't have to. Keep fighting your case for sure.

And I really didn't mean anything disgusting in any comment. If I caused you any offence I apologise.

Ginger83

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Good to hear someone getting a result, I woke up one morning to find my lawn ruined by cattle but I never found out who they belonged to and had to foot the bill myself.

Sorry to hear that, much damage/?

An Ri rua

Ard_MC wrote: »

Nope, that's what brings you peace at this time. Most definitely not.

Get some1 to fill in the damage so it can work. And enjoy your garden.

And yes I know you shouldn't have to. Keep fighting your case for sure.

And I really didn't mean anything disgusting in any comment. If I caused you any offence I apologise.

I believe you offended MickdW, not the Op...

Galwayguy35

Ginger83 wrote: »

Sorry to hear that, much damage/?

I haven't a huge lawn so got it done for around 500 but I was only after putting it down the year before so it pissed me off to have to do it over again.

A number of farmers move their cattle up the road past my place so i had no idea which one it was and it was the fact that they didn't own up to having done the damage that annoyed me more than anything.

Ginger83

Ard_MC wrote: »

Nope, that's what brings you peace at this time. Most definitely not.

Get some1 to fill in the damage so it can work. And enjoy your garden.

And yes I know you shouldn't have to. Keep fighting your case for sure.

And I really didn't mean anything disgusting in any comment. If I caused you any offence I apologise.

None taken, just hope to sort it for summer

Ginger83

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I haven't a huge lawn so got it done for around 500 but I was only after putting it down the year before so it pissed me off to have to do it over again.

A number of farmers move their cattle up the road past my place so i had no idea which one it was and it was the fact that they didn't own up to having done the damage that annoyed me more than anything.

Nice neighbours

Galwayguy35

Ginger83 wrote: »

Nice neighbours

Indeed.

Chances are I meet him a few times a week and he salutes me on the road!

Mac Taylor

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Indeed.

Chances are I meet him a few times a week and he salutes me on the road!

Out of curiosity, have you a gate on your driveway? I drive cattle on the road infrequently even with having a fragmented farm. I close all gates prior to driving cattle (usually early Sunday morning) yet the amount of times the gate will be opened 30 mins later. I also open all gates I close. If you live in the countryside you need a gate and keep it closed. With the best will in the world, cattle break out, field gates left open etc etc.

Our cattle broke out last year after an eircom contracted hedge cutter knocked walls and left the cuttings fall on an electric fence knocking it out.

Base price

Mac Taylor wrote: »

Out of curiosity, have you a gate on your driveway? I drive cattle on the road infrequently even with having a fragmented farm. I close all gates prior to driving cattle (usually early Sunday morning) yet the amount of times the gate will be opened 30 mins later. I also open all gates I close. If you live in the countryside you need a gate and keep it closed. With the best will in the world, cattle break out, field gates left open etc etc.

Our cattle broke out last year after an eircom contracted hedge cutter knocked walls and left the cuttings fall on an electric fence knocking it out.

I think it's a standard Sunday morning job if you have an outfarm
We move cattle during the summer between two outfarms. There are three houses that don't have a gate so we put up a strand of white electric tape, roll it up when the cattle have passed and leave it in the hedge for use the next time. The house owners are sons/daughters of local people and know the score.

Ginger83

Mac Taylor wrote: »

Out of curiosity, have you a gate on your driveway? I drive cattle on the road infrequently even with having a fragmented farm. I close all gates prior to driving cattle (usually early Sunday morning) yet the amount of times the gate will be opened 30 mins later. I also open all gates I close. If you live in the countryside you need a gate and keep it closed. With the best will in the world, cattle break out, field gates left open etc etc.

Our cattle broke out last year after an eircom contracted hedge cutter knocked walls and left the cuttings fall on an electric fence knocking it out.

Hi out of curiosity how many times would you find it acceptable for animals to break out of the same field over say a 2 year period

We are at 4 times and counting.

893bet

US2 wrote: »

Any pictures of the lawn after they destroyed it? Missed the old thread I know its overgrown now.

Fair play Ginger, good to see someone stand up for themselves and not give up.

I saw the damage. It was minimal if I recall though appreciate it’s difficult to picture poaching marks.

Why is it over grown at this point?

the_pen_turner

893bet wrote: »

I saw the damage. It was minimal if I recall though appreciate it’s difficult to picture poaching marks.

Why is it over grown at this point?

looked like a lot of holes and divits. auto lawnmowers dont like rough ground like that. presumably having no way to cut it would be the reason it has been left grow

Mac Taylor

Ginger83 wrote: »

Hi out of curiosity how many times would you find it acceptable for animals to break out of the same field over say a 2 year period

We are at 4 times and counting.

Hi, not getting at you. I would be fairly pissed in your situation aswell. I try to ensure cattle never breakout, I’m close to a main road so the consequences could be serious. If my cattle broke out I would do my damndest to ensure it does not happen again.

Ginger83

893bet wrote: »

I saw the damage. It was minimal if I recall though appreciate it’s difficult to picture poaching marks.

Why is it over grown at this point?

Hi if you count 1156 euro of damage as minimal then yes it was minimal.

The robot cannot cut it.

Hoboo

Ginger83 wrote: »

Hi out of curiosity how many times would you find it acceptable for animals to break out of the same field over say a 2 year period

We are at 4 times and counting.

Expect a 5th. And a 6th.

You could reverse that, how many times would you find it acceptable for animals to break into the same garden?

Cattle and sheep will get out, hedges fail, gates and fences fail. It's not just a lawn I'm protecting and I don't leave it up to the local farmer exclusively.

Lucky it was just your lawn and not a few windows, doors, gate, fences, your car, or kids.