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Scottish independence



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 62,626 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011

    Its a requirement of any new members after 1992, but Sweden have so far managed to avoid meeting the criteria to change over for two decades and still have no intent to do so.

  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 8,579 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Jim2007

    Making stuff up and then getting all up set when it does not happen, just demonstrates a lack of knowledge and understanding.

    The entire EU is constructed on the basis that states will look after their own interests and it is organised to ensure that the rights of small states are protected against domination by larger states.

    The EU has product some excellent booklets examining all this I suggest you start reading rather than writing fairy tales.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,970 ✭✭✭ ambro25

    There’s an interesting perspective in this recent article, about the notion of Scotland exiting the Union and rejoining the EU:

    If Scotland leaves the UK that will further complicate matters as the EU will not accept a new country entering the EU which has an uncontrolled border with England outside the EU, perhaps uses the English currency, has English nuclear submarines in Scottish waters, and will seek to have its haggis and eat it by wanting to keep the same trade, investment relations with England as it would like to have with the EU. The high state officials I spoke to were just puzzled by any question of Scotland rejoining the EU in the event of secession. No-one in Bercy or the Quai seems to have considered it an important question. 

    I found that surprising, as these French über technocrats are usually thinking about most everything a decade ahead, all the more so under Macron’s tenure, whose European ambitions are well-known by now. Maybe it’s a bandwidth issue.

  • Registered Users Posts: 19,367 ✭✭✭✭ Water John

    The Uk economy was 90% in size of the German economy in 2016, now it's at 70%, so 6 years is a long time in politics.

  • Registered Users Posts: 13,719 ✭✭✭✭ Fr Tod Umptious

    Lot of haggisims from the SNP.

    As part of the EU they will have two border checkpoints with England on the M6 and A1 but will leave 22 more road crossing upoliced.

    But I'm sure like the Brexiteers did they will claim such anomalies are not a problem and some yet to be invented technology will solve the any potential issues.

    Post edited by Fr Tod Umptious on

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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,811 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell

    Well, I have a sister who lives in Switzerland in a village on the French/Swiss border.

    They have an unpoliced border and it has no difficulties with it. Now Both sides of the border are in the SM, but not the customs union. She says since Schengen came into force, there is a lot less cross border crime so policing must be improved. Living close to the border, she has restrictions on cross border shopping that would not apply to Swiss citizens living further away. She needs to carry documentation such as a passport when across the border.

    If it becomes a problem, then some or all those 22 unpoliced crossings will become policed, or closed. The NI border is a whole separate issue with hundreds of border crossings that could never be policed.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6 pizzathis

    how Did we ever survive before we became Europeans .

  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 85,706 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Capt'n Midnight

    And yet the British government are quite happy to allow NI to have them every seven years if the secretary of state wants.

    It's not a united kingdom if different rules are used in different countries.

  • Registered Users Posts: 23,902 ✭✭✭✭ Peregrinus

    I think the issue may be more the way the author framed the questions that he put to the French officials.

    Earlier on in the same article he asks about the possibility of a bilateral FRA-UK agreement to introduce freedom of movement, etc, modelled on the IRL-UK Common Travel Area. He reports that the French officials he spoke to had no interest in such a deal, and he deduces from this that the French are not interested in facilitating a UK rapprochement with the EU. What he doesn't report is that such a deal would require France to exit the Schengen area, to which it is bound by treaty commitments; that is a huge, and totally unrealistic, demand. It's not one that, in the real world, the UK is ever likely to put to France. Either the author is very ignorant, or he had deliberately framed his questions and/or is presenting the replies selectively. He presents the French dismissing an absurdly unrealistic and unreasonable idea as evidence of a general opposition to any kind of rapprochement.

    The same could be going on here. The author presents a specific model of Scots independence that is not, in fact, the model the SNP is promoting. It seems to be a model tailored by the author to make an independent Scotland an unsuitable candidate for EU membership. He says that the French officials were "just puzzled by any question of Scotland rejoining the EU in the event of secession"; the truth may be that the French were puzzled by the idea of this model of independent Scotland joining the EU. "No-one in Bercy or the Quai seems to have considered it an important question"; no, I bet they haven't.

    MacShane is a nasty piece of work, noted for his dishonest approach to politics and to life in general. This article is very much in keeping with that.

    Post edited by Peregrinus on

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  • Registered Users Posts: 45,388 ✭✭✭✭ Mr.Nice Guy

    Matt Qvortrup, a politics professor who specialises in democracy and referendums, told the Sunday Herald that the SNP can only win a Scottish independence referendum by being more populist.

    Can't see Sturgeon's SNP going down that road.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,452 ✭✭✭ serfboard

    I always thought that the Scots would do well to quote Parnell:

    "No [one] has the right to fix the boundary to the march of a nation. No [one] has the right to say ... 'Thus far shalt thou go and no further'".

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,747 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha

    Does it?

    Look at England right now? Look at the rhetoric coming from the likes of Suella Braverman and know that they sadly speak for many here. I think the idea of separating from England has a huge appeal, especially if it results in EU membership.

    Brexit also focused on culture and not economics. Look how that turned out.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith

  • Registered Users Posts: 16,748 ✭✭✭✭ A Dub in Glasgo

    Next Wednesday is judgement day, most commentators think the Scottish government will fail in its bid

  • Registered Users Posts: 45,388 ✭✭✭✭ Mr.Nice Guy

    It would be great if the ruling is that a referendum can be called, but it seems unlikely if the pundits are to be believed. What I'm wondering is if the verdict is negative, will that energise the Scottish public, or are people so jaded with the doom and gloom of politics right now that it will be met with a collective shrug?



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,748 ✭✭✭✭ A Dub in Glasgo

    UK Supreme Court has denied the referendum - denied the concept of self-determination for Scotland

    In effect, the UK is an involutary union

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,797 ✭✭✭ McFly85

    It’s no surprise at all that it was rejected, ultimately leaving Scotland trapped.

    I suspect the Scottish government knew it was likely to fail, so what’s their next move? Continue to play the long game or go for more extreme measures(e.g hold a non legally binding ref to pile political pressure onto Westminster)?

  • Registered Users Posts: 21,464 ✭✭✭✭ Larbre34

    100% correct.

    The reverse psychology of galvanising previously ambivalent people, by telling them they are banned from doing something by a remote body in a different nation, is the surest way to bring that something about.

    Sturgeon playing a masterful long game with all this.

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,948 CMod ✭✭✭✭ pixelburp

    Was this perhaps the true outcome the SNP hoped for, ultimately? Call a referendum, knowing there was still only a light breeze was behind their backs supporting independence. They knew it had the problem of being "too soon", alongside the many grumbles and lingering fondness for the UK union; instead all they had to do was sit back and let the system itself highlight the disparity of the whole institution. Scotland can't leave 'til we say you can, quoth the Tories.

    No better way to get people to do somethin than tell them they can't. The coming polls will tell all: if there's any kind of upward swing for independence we can, potentially, put it at the feet of this court decision that has effectively said: this is not a union of equals. Maybe the legalise and detail paint a more complex picture but I'd be shocked if this isn't the narrative spun by those saying otherwise.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,446 ✭✭✭✭ VinLieger

    Its good that there is finally a legal proof of how unfair it is and I think those in England on both the left and right really have no clue about why anyone would want independence (highly ironic from brexit types). Even those on the left on the likes of r/ukpolitics are usually vehemently anti SNP or scottish independence but ive never seen anything close to a good moral argument against self determination from anyone in this case, it always falls back to emotion over the survival of the Union even from the most rabid anti royalist socialists.

  • Registered Users Posts: 45,388 ✭✭✭✭ Mr.Nice Guy

    The ruling will galvanise those already in favour of independence. The question is will it have the same effect on those who aren't overly invested already. I'm not sure. Seems to be a lot of apathy around atm.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,400 ✭✭✭ tinytobe

    I am personally rather pleased with the court's decision.

    I also think that Sturgeon and the SNP should focus on her own domestic problems and issues inside of Scotland rather than ringing the independence bell all the time, whilst asking and wanting more money from Westminster.

    I am not saying that an independent Scotland can't live by it's own, but it would certainly be a mess if it's done by the SNP.

    The real problem in Scotland is the SNP and it's only the SNP's domestic failures which bring Scotland only closer into dependence of Westminster.

  • Registered Users Posts: 16,446 ✭✭✭✭ VinLieger

    They were elected on their manifesto of trying to achieve Independence they are simply doing what the voters elected them to do. If voters think they arent doing a good job domestically they can vote someone else in.

  • Registered Users Posts: 58,688 ✭✭✭✭ FrancieBrady

    There is a colonial 'the natives are not fit to look after themselves' bang off that tbh.

    I can't see this doing anything but increasing the independence vote. If it was a deliberate effort to expose what is at the heart of the Union it could be a masterstroke.

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,948 CMod ✭✭✭✭ pixelburp

    You speak as if a ruling party can't do two things at the same time: the SNP have been voted by an electorate knowing full well that part of the manifesto is independence. If the electorate doesn't want independence, it'll reject the SNP. Or indeed, if they feel their domestic performance isn't good enough, they'll reject them. You can't berate a party for fulfilling its mandate - god knows plenty of threads here do so for parties that don't or won't.

  • Registered Users Posts: 921 ✭✭✭ snowstorm445

    Tbh I can see the Indy campaign running out of steam after this. The drive for it in Scotland is still very halfhearted despite all the bluster over Brexit and a series of disastrous British governments. The last few years have been pretty disastrous for the pro-Union argument on nearly every level. But there just isn't the stomach for change among a large chunk of the population.

    The Catalan independence movement had a much more powerful drive behind it a few years ago (and mobilised far more people) but it's been stuck in limbo for the last few years since the Spanish Government cracked down on its leadership/outlawed any referendum. Given how lukewarn so many Scots are in comparison I can really see their campaign petering out, at least in the short term.

  • Registered Users Posts: 13,719 ✭✭✭✭ Fr Tod Umptious

    Continue to play the long game or go for more extreme measures(e.g hold a non legally binding ref to pile political pressure onto Westminster)?

    One of the main reasons for renewed calls for a second referendum so soon after the first is obviously Brexit.

    And a big part of the drive for independence is that it's a route back to the EU.

    But going it alone on a referendum after this ruling will do nothing for the standing of the SNP with the EU.

    It will actually alienate them from most of the governments of the EU 27.

    Democracies don't like illegal independence referendums, regardless of what they think of the UK government.

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,747 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha

    I think it's more of a win short term vs win long term scenario. Had they been allowed to have the referendum, it'd be a simple matter of calling a date and campaigning with Brexit, austerity and so long in their arsenal. Failing that, they can bang on the drum of being under England's foot which is at least true.

    I agree with @VinLieger. This is the worst thing for the Union. It turns it from being David Cameron's family of nations to being a geopolitical gilded cage. Scotland has a history of being a nation longer than any other on these islands. It's disgusting that they're not allowed to carve their own path.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,400 ✭✭✭ tinytobe

    Let's hope so.

    And believe me, there are a lot of domestic issues in Scotland. They need to be tackled first. I also doubt that the SNP could do that, they are responsible for these domestic issues, after all they have been in power for a long enough time.