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Scottish independence

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Comments

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,704 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha


    How is she supposed to move independence forward, exactly? Spain has made it clear that it would oppose Scottish accession unless it's done within the confines of the British constitution. In the meantime, Scotland has other matters to contend with, as Pixelburp has shown.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,393 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    Scottish independence can only be achieved (without insurrection and violence) by the agreement of the British Gov or the British Supreme Court.

    Following a positive vote in a referendum, a negotiated settlement on financial repercussions of independence and the resulting relationship between the rUK and Scotland is inevitable. It is only after this agreement and transition period would accession to the EU or EEA become relevant.

    There is no way Spain would be in a position to veto an independent Scotland from joining the EU, as an independent Scotland without the agreement of the rUK is unthinkable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,964 ✭✭✭✭ Kermit.de.frog


    It's far from a stretch to see Scotland going down the sectarian, nationalist/Loyalist route that poisoned NI if they voted for independence.

    When it comes to national identity it's playing with fire.

    Things could get very bitter.

    In our case we escaped that due to having a broadly cohesive society post independence.

    The same would not be true for Scotland in my opinion.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 28,661 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pixelburp


    If there wasn't civil war in Scotland in 2014, why on earth would there be one now?

    I don't doubt the militant section of fhe unionist community would be out in force if there was a Yes for independence - but at worst that's manifest as aggro at the next Rangers/Celtic derby. Full-on war on the streets? No chance.



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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,504 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Capt'n Midnight


    Scotland has more natural resources than we do. And direct road and rail connections to it's largest trading partner.

    The poorest Irish have a standard of living almost 63% higher than the poorest in the UK "last year the lowest-earning bracket of British households had a standard of living that was 20 per cent weaker than their counterparts in Slovenia."

    Stay in the UK and the rich in English will get richer at everyone else's expense. Also expect more Tory cuts.



  • Registered Users Posts: 44,824 ✭✭✭✭ Mr.Nice Guy


    Latest British Attitudes Survey data has been released. It was conducted last year but published today. Support for Scottish independence is at a record number.


    Polling expert Sir John Curtice talking about it today here (1 hr, 12 mins in):


    The same survey shows support for NI being in the UK has dropped from 60% in 2015 to 49%. It was 15% for unity in 2015 and it's doubled to 30% in 2021.

    💙

    💛



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 28,661 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pixelburp


    Didn't Google to confirm but I swear I read the ... controversial (to put it mildly) tax changes from Truss' government won't apply in Scotland - that correct?

    Even if the average Scot doesn't buy into independence, many might be relieved devolution has at least shielded them from such a pronounced ideological swing.

    I'm probably 100% guilty of reading every crazy Tory decision as another half a percent in favour of Independence - but yikes, who'd stick with this freewheeling Union?



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,031 ✭✭✭✭ Larbre34


    It is correct, yes.

    Even before the devolution of two decades ago, Scotland would have had greater local power for such things than Wales or NI.



  • Registered Users Posts: 44,824 ✭✭✭✭ Mr.Nice Guy


    Very important for the SNP to look like the best bets for economic stability as a significant number of swing voters will likely base their vote on who they trust more with the economy. The next opinion polls will be fascinating after the recent news. Royalists were suggesting a bump in support for 'No' on the back of the funeral coverage and aftermath, but it might be a swing in the opposite direction due to the economic instability of Truss' current policies.

    💙

    💛



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,113 ✭✭✭✭ Muahahaha


    Its quite the trend when you see it charted out like that. It was constantly hovering at around 28-30% for a decade and then the Brexit referendum comes along to bring it up over 40% and now past 50%. No wonder the Tories are now trying to float this new idea of making an Indyref2 needing a 60% vote to pass, they have already accepted that if it is 50% then it is a done deal for Scottish independence.

    Interesting as well that there are 8% of people who want no Scottish parliament at all and instead want direct rule from London. I wonder who these people are that they seem to have more loyalty to England than Scotland



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 61,774 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,504 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Capt'n Midnight


    8.7% of the Scottish population were born in England (459,000/5.281m 2011 figures.)



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,113 ✭✭✭✭ Muahahaha


    thats a fair wedge, more than I thought it would be. If the Tories manage to get a referendum needing 60% as theyve been planning that almost 9% English likely voting no makes it a fair bit harder for it to pass



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,393 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    How can the Tories say it is democratic to have 52% for Brexit - that's OK - Get Over it.

    However, Scottish democracy needs 60% or more to be democratic. That is hypocrisy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,646 ✭✭✭✭ A Dub in Glasgo


    Big week coming up with the Supreme court. Let us see if the SNP have the back bone to start the planning and consultations with other independence groups for the plebiscite election given that most think the supreme court will rule against the Scottish parliament





  • Registered Users Posts: 10,864 ✭✭✭✭ hotmail.com


    Not sure I understand Sturgeon's detest the Tories and everything they stand for comment today.

    The Tories and SNP and Labour all have rather similar policies on most things.

    So I'm not sure what planet she's on.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,704 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha


    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,393 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell




  • Registered Users Posts: 10,864 ✭✭✭✭ hotmail.com


    Social and economic policies are broadly similar. They are neo Liberal capitalist nationalistic type parties. They may differ on the details of specific policies but that's all.

    The notion that the SNP are some revolutionary party is completely ridiculous. Many members of SNP are just as right wing as the Tories - but they are drawn to the SNP because of the independence policy.

    In fact, if Scotland did get her independence, it's likely the SNP will split between left and right wing parties.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,704 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha


    So you can't name a single policy. That's about par for the course.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 28,661 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pixelburp


    "They may differ on the details". Oh please.

    Well, everyone's the same if you ignore the details. LOL. Sure left and right wing politics are the same if you ignore the details.

    Just this week Sturgeon has been in the trenches defending a change in how trans people may not require psychiatric diagnosis (with JK Rowling inevitably rowing in); while other actions like free sanitary products in public sectors locations ... well, they don't exactly show the social conscience is parallel with the demonstrably more draconian Tory party



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,295 ✭✭✭✭ Fr Tod Umptious


    I'd say the SNP are fans of FPTP just like the Conservatives.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,704 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha


    Based on what, exactly? Elections to the Scottish parliament are carried out using a FPTP-PR hybrid system. The SNP have said that they support PR. It's basic democracy.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,646 ✭✭✭✭ A Dub in Glasgo




  • Registered Users Posts: 16,646 ✭✭✭✭ A Dub in Glasgo


    Sturgeon was asked by Kuenssberg Truss or Starmer for PM. She replied “If the question to me is would I prefer a Labour government over a Tory government — I detest the Tories and everything they stand for — so it’s not difficult to answer that question,”

    It is manufactured outrage from unionists



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,504 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Capt'n Midnight


    "In fact, if Scotland did get her independence, it's likely the SNP will split between left and right wing parties."

    Necessity makes strange bedfellows. There was a split here after independence. After not before.

    Polar opposites can agree that independence from England is the biggest issue. Or did you mean something else ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,864 ✭✭✭✭ hotmail.com


    Indeed. The SNP is held together by independence but they are not so coherent on other policies.

    Their last leader Alex Salmond was essentially a centre right politician. Sturgeon is more to the centre, but by no means left wing or radically different to Tory policy.

    Her language was not only divisive, it was just stupid.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,504 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Capt'n Midnight


    It's not entirely unexpected that her language would be divisive since that whole point of the SNP is to divide the UK.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 44,824 ✭✭✭✭ Mr.Nice Guy


    If he really thinks this, why not push for the referendum, win it, and put the issue to bed for the next decade?

    I find the attitude of 'no referendum because the country is divided' to be odd. If there is no referendum, the country is still divided because those in favour of independence are having to sit there and like it. The only way to stabilise politics is to address it. They can't put it off forever.

    💙

    💛



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