Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

awec

Buer wrote: »

Wood had him next in line behind Wallace and ahead of Ferris.

Is Wood related to POM or something?

salmocab

awec wrote: »

Is Wood related to POM or something?

It’s Munster they’re all related

geotrig

Buer wrote: »

Listen to the piece. They were all mentioned, I think.

Hickie never had the consistency of Earls or Bowe and suffered badly with injuries. Clohsessy was very good; he wasn't in Healy's class though. For a sustained period, I don't think many would have Henderson or Maggs ahead of D'Arcy although both were excellent players at their best. But D'Arcy in 2004 was nominated for world player of the year deservedly.

Nobody in their right mind would have Geordan Murphy ahead of Kearney. Incredibly talented but was incredibly unreliable too.

Yeah must have a listen to their debate. Im not saying I'd have those players in myself but .... I also think Darcy had 2 great seasons and the rest were reliable but not at his early level , maybe playing beside bod dampened that but we'll yeah.

Shefwedfan

Buer wrote: »

Wood had him next in line behind Wallace and ahead of Ferris.

Oh my gawd :P

thomond2006

POM should be in the honourable mentions. He's got 67 Ireland caps and he's got a few years left. Ferris, for all his ability and talent, only had 35. SOB had 56.

POM captained the Lions in a test in Warburton's absence and produced one of the best performances by a green shirt against NZ in 2018.

Former Former

D'Arcy was unquestioned first choice from 2004 to 2014, he was the only player who was going to be picked at 12.

Henderson was great but my memory is that he fizzled out (mainly due to injury) after the Lions tour so how much he contributed in the 21st century is debatable. I always have great memories of him in that win in Paris in 2000.

Maggs not in the discussion at all (and played a lot of his rugby on the wing).

TomsOnTheRoof

Interesting breakdown of our forward's carry stats in this years Six Nations. Obviously it makes for a small sample size but it gives you an idea of where the work is being done. Courtesy of u/cleverbadger101 over on the rugby subreddit.

Buer

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

Interesting breakdown of our forward's carry stats in this years Six Nations. Obviously it makes for a small sample size but it gives you an idea of where the work is being done. Courtesy of u/cleverbadger101 over on the rugby subreddit.

I'm not sure if the numbers are accurate (the ones on Irish Rugby site appear different) but the overall message is clear: we are overwhelmingly reliant on two guys to carry a huge amount of ball. And it's worth mentioning that neither of those two guys are particularly destructive or elusive carriers at this level. They'll truck it up all day long and get over the gain line but they do not break the gain line or suck a defender in and put someone else away.

Wood made a pertinent point on Ryan the other night when he said that he would be far better making 8-10 carries a match than 16-18 carries. Someone who is 6'7" and already jumping in the line out and packing down at lock has enough wear and tear on their bodies without getting smashed repeatedly. If he wants to be still playing top level rugby in a decade at 33, he's going to have to adjust. Stander might play in the same manner but he's built more for it and didn't start playing test rugby until he was almost 26 so won't have that same level of mileage.

We are far too one dimensional in our attack and we desperately need to review our selection and approach in our pack. Unfortunately, we had Doris taken out of the equation and he's a guy who could very well be a big piece of the puzzle. However, it's not good enough that we turned back to VDF and POM. Their carrying at test level simply isn't nearly good enough.

Former Former

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

Interesting breakdown of our forward's carry stats in this years Six Nations. Obviously it makes for a small sample size but it gives you an idea of where the work is being done. Courtesy of u/cleverbadger101 over on the rugby subreddit.

I'm a little skeptical of this tbh.

If I'm reading it right, Stander and Ryan made 150 metres each with ball in hand over three matches? That's 50-odd metres per game? No, that's not right, not even remotely.

Am I missing something?

CatFromHue

I listened to that podcast on the best XV.

I was surprised more wasn't said of Sexton'd drop in 2018 and how little was said of ROG's inconsistencies over the years. He had some howlers, and some great games too. I don't think he had as many great games as Sexton though and some of his form for Munster gets subconsciously thought of when thinking of him. I don't think Sexton's form dropped as low as ROG's either.

These discussion can get a bit mad and I'm a big fan of the guy, I think he's a fantastic analyst. For me though Sexton's been better for Ireland.

clsmooth

I think if you ask anyone outside of Ireland who our best out half has been, there’ll only be one answer. The controversy in having a viewpoint here stems from 2010-2011 when things could get quite heated if you backed one over the other

Buer

Former Former wrote: »

I'm a little skeptical of this tbh.

If I'm reading it right, Stander and Ryan made 150 metres each with ball in hand over three matches? That's 50-odd metres per game? No, that's not right, not even remotely.

Am I missing something?

Nope, the numbers aren't accurate at all for the specifics. The two guys had about a third of that in terms of meters carried.

The actual number of carries is more accurate although I'm not sure where he's getting those stats as I think they're slightly off also. But what I do see as accurate is the ratio of carries i.e. Stander and Ryan carry almost as much ball as all of the other forwards combined.

Bridge93

There is no rational argument for picking OGara ahead of Sexton in an Irish team. Its an ex teammate picking their friend and no more. Wood was grasping at straws to find any reason to pick him and settled on some fairly strange logic. I'm sure if Gordon D'arcy was brought for his opinion, there's a chance Shane Horgan/Hickie would've found a way into the side. It's all a bit of fun

awec

Don't know why people get so worked up about it, everyone knows Humphreys was better than both of them anyway.

sydthebeat

awec wrote: »

Don't know why people get so worked up about it, everyone knows Humphreys was better than both of them anyway.

Ian was a fine fine player!

Paul Smeenus

sydthebeat wrote: »

Ian was a fine fine player!

No Niall O'Connor, though. Or Sam Windsor. Or James McKinney.

arsebiscuits1

Buer wrote: »

I'm not sure if the numbers are accurate (the ones on Irish Rugby site appear different) but the overall message is clear: we are overwhelmingly reliant on two guys to carry a huge amount of ball. And it's worth mentioning that neither of those two guys are particularly destructive or elusive carriers at this level. They'll truck it up all day long and get over the gain line but they do not break the gain line or suck a defender in and put someone else away.

Wood made a pertinent point on Ryan the other night when he said that he would be far better making 8-10 carries a match than 16-18 carries. Someone who is 6'7" and already jumping in the line out and packing down at lock has enough wear and tear on their bodies without getting smashed repeatedly. If he wants to be still playing top level rugby in a decade at 33, he's going to have to adjust. Stander might play in the same manner but he's built more for it and didn't start playing test rugby until he was almost 26 so won't have that same level of mileage.

We are far too one dimensional in our attack and we desperately need to review our selection and approach in our pack. Unfortunately, we had Doris taken out of the equation and he's a guy who could very well be a big piece of the puzzle. However, it's not good enough that we turned back to VDF and POM. Their carrying at test level simply isn't nearly good enough.

It's clear that Ryan and Stander do the lions share of the carrying which is displayed in the graph. I didn't realise just how dependent we were on them.

It's clear that Farrell has been trying to blood some players who would definitely be able to take the load of those guys. Deegan and Doris are both excellent carriers and the likes of Kelleher I think is a much more destructive carrier than someone like Cronin who is more than capable of elusive speed as opposed to a tackle breaking ability. Someone like Conan is also an option but I'm not sure how well him and CJ would fit into the same backrow.

It's the tradeoff you get when you play Toner, POM and VDF in the same pack. All 3 of these fellas each bring absolutely loads to the table and are excellent players in their own right. But none of them bring a threat of breaking a tackle against a test defence.

It's one area I have been really underwhelmed with Henderson at test level. This is a man whose incredibly strong and built a reputation on a destructive ball carrying ability in his early career. I just feel he doesn't get his hands on the ball enough. It's obviously likely that this might be in part a game plan, but I just feel he can offer so much more with the hard yards.

Seeing how much we rely on a few carriers really does make you miss Leavy. He's not in the SOB mould of a ball carrying 7. But he's an absolutely excellent carrier and I hope he comes back as such.

clsmooth

Henderson came through as a ball carrying 6 and was shifted into the row where he’s expected to smash rucks all day. He’s definitely lost his dynamism from his younger days but looks noticeably heavier and you see the benefit of this in close quarters with his choke tackling, ball stripping and strength in contact. He’s basically doing the role that JS hoped Roux and Kleyn could do.

He doesn’t have that nasty edge/aggression to become a stand out enforcer. We as fans just miss seeing him run over the likes of Eben Etzebeth and don’t see the work he does in tight. A shaved head and Chabal like beard would probably do a lot for his image as a destructive player I think Ryan’s workrate though is on another level hence racking up huge numbers all over the board which is the exception to the rule.

Podge_irl

Buer wrote: »

I found their comments around guys like Flannery, Leamy, Reddan etc. to be more interesting than a lot of their actual selections. I was genuinely surprised to hear BOD ask Wood why he wasn't considering Leamy at all and speak about his skill levels which he considered to be higher than those of Wallace.

Gotta say, I never would have associated the word skilful with Leamy. Great player and bloody powerful but not skilful in the classic sense of the word.

clsmooth

Podge_irl wrote: »

Gotta say, I never would have associated the word skilful with Leamy. Great player and bloody powerful but not skilful in the classic sense of the word.

I was half listening but I think BOD said he was more skilful that Heaslip which I would have thought was a big part of Heaslips game-The fact that Heaslip could do everything to a high standard and hardly ever make any errors. I can think of two handling errors from his career, one from a kick off in the 2013 GN and one vs Northampton at the Aviva. They seem quite vivid memories as he hardly ever made mistakes due to his skill levels.

Richie_Rich89

Fitzgerald's mentioned Leamy having a nice skillset a few times. Didn't he play outhalf in school or something? It was him wit the pass back to O'Gara for the drop goal against Northampton.

yerrahbah

Not sure it counts as skill, but this is a standout memory of Leamy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9jltodVhAU

Paul Smeenus

clsmooth wrote: »

Henderson came through as a ball carrying 6 and was shifted into the row where he’s expected to smash rucks all day. He’s definitely lost his dynamism from his younger days but looks noticeably heavier and you see the benefit of this in close quarters with his choke tackling, ball stripping and strength in contact. He’s basically doing the role that JS hoped Roux and Kleyn could do.

He doesn’t have that nasty edge/aggression to become a stand out enforcer. We as fans just miss seeing him run over the likes of Eben Etzebeth and don’t see the work he does in tight. A shaved head and Chabal like beard would probably do a lot for his image as a destructive player I think Ryan’s workrate though is on another level hence racking up huge numbers all over the board which is the exception to the rule.

There was a good interview a while ago where Hendo talked about the role JS wanted him to play - think it was on 42.ie.

If some big baby-eating granite lock came through, Hendo could play more to his strengths. Instead you have what was formerly our most dynamic, fastest second row sitting off waiting for choke tackles, on instruction.

Or "had". We'll see what Farrell wants.

Paul Smeenus

yerrahbah wrote: »

Not sure it counts as skill, but this is a standout memory of Leamy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9jltodVhAU

Did Leamy not line out at centre once or twice?

aloooof

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Did Leamy not line out at centre once or twice?

Think that was Wally? For Munster, at least.

Paul Smeenus

aloooof wrote: »

Think that was Wally? For Munster, at least.

I know Wally did - I thought both had? Maybe not.

Paul Smeenus

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/kidney-gambles-on-leamy-at-centre-1.490825

MUNSTER: S Payne; J Kelly, T Halstead, D Leamy, A Horgan; P Burke, P Stringer; M Horan, F Sheahan, F Pucciariello; T Hogan, M O'Driscoll; A Quinlan, D Wallace, A Foley (capt). Replacements: F Roche, J Flannery, J O'Sullivan, S Keogh, F Murphy, J Manning, R Henderson.

irishbucsfan

Imagine playing against Quinlan, Wallace, Foley and Leamy all at the same time

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Imagine playing against Quinlan, Wallace, Foley and Leamy all at the same time

There'd be a helluva fight for the last piece of puddin

thomond2006

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There'd be a helluva fight for the last piece of puddin