ESB eCars pricing introduction

liamog

In terms of equipment cost, it's largely a choice between a CCS1 charger (up to 50kW) or a CCS2 charger (up to 150kW). There isn't much money to be saved by custom ordering some bare minimum charger at 70kW.
In 2019, the percentage of new cars capable of greater than 70kW charging was 45.6%, the only model from the list that goes over 50kW, but under 70kW is the 28kWh Ioniq.

You don't deploy infrastructure that will last for 8/10 years based on the current extremely small market. If you were to do so, we'd have zero new chargers and stick to petrol stations instead.

JohnC.

McGiver wrote: »

Market share of Kona, Niro, Soul? About 15%. The other ones are irrelevant, niche expensive cars. What's coming next year is future not present.


Yes - 70kW max. And you are omitting market share of the total fleet

350 or even 150 isn't the new standard. I could perhaps agree with 70kW being the standard but arguably even that is not the case. By my count 70kW capable are 15% of the market (Koreans) and >70kW are like 4% of the market (Teslas). That's 20% or so.

80% vs 20%

It seems foolish to build for today and not for tomorrow. These shouldn't be machines that need to be replaced in a year or two, when this forum will be questioning why they were so shortsighted to only install 50s.

ELM327

McGiver wrote: »

Apart of the small detail that there is only one car that can take more than 70kW DC - Tesla M3 (and S). And just a couple that can take up to 70 kW DC. So what's the point talking 350 or even 150 kW? In grand scheme of things we're still at 50-70 kW market standard. We may move above 70 kW requirement in next 2 years. But let's see the charging curve of the few "100 kW DC capable" cars coming to the market soon. I wouldn't be surprised if they supported only 70-80 kW in reality.

So no, 50 kW is still fast, at least in this particular market.

How many of those Teslas as a % of all EVs in Ireland?

Ioniq charges at 70kW peak, kona, eniro, e soul all get over 70 but below 80.
Then you have the ipace, 100kW
Etron 150kW
EQC 120kW
Tesla S/X peak at 150kW, 3 peaks at 250kW
Then you have the ID3 coming and all the new EVs next year. 50kW is nonsense

Peter mx5

Hello we are new to all this.regarding cars charging points.we understand the 45min limit on rapid charge points and the 5 euro charge of you go over that time but do those rules apply to the slower free charge points.just purchasing 24kwh leaf.thanks

Gwen Cooper

Peter mx5 wrote: »

Hello we are new to all this.regarding cars charging points.we understand the 45min limit on rapid charge points and the 5 euro charge of you go over that time but do those rules apply to the slower free charge points.just purchasing 24kwh leaf.thanks

The pricing and the overstay fee only applies to fast chargers, the standard ones are free with no overstay fee but ESB are supposed to start pricing for the 22kW chargers later this year. Pricing will be different for that I'd think.

slave1

ELM327 wrote: »

Ioniq charges at 70kW peak, kona, eniro, e soul all get over 70 but below 80.
Then you have the ipace, 100kW
Etron 150kW
EQC 120kW
Tesla S/X peak at 150kW, 3 peaks at 250kW
Then you have the ID3 coming and all the new EVs next year. 50kW is nonsense

Don't forget about the fleet of existing cars where 50 is plenty, e.g. lots of Leaf24/30/40 out there that will be fully satisfied with a 50 charger.
But yeah, get the "charger for the future" side of things

ELM327

slave1 wrote: »

Don't forget about the fleet of existing cars where 50 is plenty, e.g. lot more Leaf24/30/40 out there that will be fully satisfied with a 50 charger

The "fleet" is nothing. Negligible.
It doubled in a few months of 2019. When the entire fleet can double in a few months, it is insubstantial.


Look at what's being sold now, other than the leaf, everything else charges >50kW

ethernet

ELM327 wrote: »

Look at what's being sold now, other than the leaf, everything else charges >50kW

Isn't the new Zoe still limited to 50kW DC as well?

ELM327

ethernet wrote: »

Isn't the new Zoe still limited to 50kW DC as well?

Strictly speaking it's not being sold yet

ethernet

ELM327 wrote: »

Strictly speaking it's not being sold yet

Ok. The old Zoe is still capped then. Same thing :pac:

ELM327

ethernet wrote: »

Ok. The old Zoe is still capped then. Same thing :pac:

The old Zoe doesnt charge on DC at all.

kennethsmyth

ELM327 wrote: »

The old Zoe doesnt charge on DC at all.

New Zoe has CCS option

ELM327

kennethsmyth wrote: »

New Zoe has CCS option

yes but

ELM327 wrote: »

Strictly speaking it's not being sold yet

liamog

I3 and e-Golf are still on sale with sub 50kW CCS. E-Golf is end of life, but I do wonder if BMW will update the charging speed on the I3

McGiver

liamog wrote:

You don't deploy infrastructure that will last for 8/10 years based on the current extremely small market. If you were to do so, we'd have zero new chargers and stick to petrol stations instead.

No argument about that. That was not my point.

But infrastructure planning in Ireland isn't done 8 years ahead for sure!

Now, most cars coming out this and next year and which have mass adoption potential are all 100 kW max. So deploying 100kW DC is sufficient for several years ahead in this market. And that's what ECars said would do.
Ionity are 125 kW so far.

McGiver

ELM327 wrote:

Ioniq charges at 70kW peak, kona, eniro, e soul all get over 70 but below 80. Then you have the ipace, 100kW Etron 150kW EQC 120kW Tesla S/X peak at 150kW, 3 peaks at 250kW Then you have the ID3 coming and all the new EVs next year. 50kW is nonsense

80 vs 20, that's all. All these Teslas, jaguars, Trons, porches, eqc, Mercs are niche cars in tiny numbers and will continue to be.

50 kW is good enough for malls for years to come. Which was the original context of this topic!

100kW will be good enough for several years for motorways spots/hubs.

liamog

Again, there is almost zero point in paying for 100kW infrastructure, the equipment is pretty much all rated at 150kW as it follows the CCS 2.0 400V standard. They won't save money down rating the charging equipment, and its a false economy to save money at the substation.

Ionity is usually 150kW equipment not 125kW.

MJohnston

liamog wrote: »

I3 and e-Golf are still on sale with sub 50kW CCS. E-Golf is end of life, but I do wonder if BMW will update the charging speed on the I3

I’d say the 120Ah i3 may be the last iteration of that particular car with the i4 coming in a couple of years.

ELM327

McGiver wrote: »

80 vs 20, that's all. All these Teslas, jaguars, Trons, porches, eqc, Mercs are niche cars in tiny numbers and will continue to be.

50 kW is good enough for malls for years to come. Which was the original context of this topic!

100kW will be good enough for several years for motorways spots/hubs.

So a 47k model 3 is niche?
Disagree. Will be possibly the most sold EV this year.

liamog wrote: »

Again, there is almost zero point in paying for 100kW infrastructure, the equipment is pretty much all rated at 150kW as it follows the CCS 2.0 400V standard. They won't save money down rating the charging equipment, and its a false economy to save money at the substation.

Ionity is usually 150kW equipment not 125kW.

+1
Ionity is 350kW capable no?

Marlow

McGiver wrote: »

80 vs 20, that's all. All these Teslas, jaguars, Trons, porches, eqc, Mercs are niche cars in tiny numbers and will continue to be.

Erhh ?

Tesla sold 270 cars in Ireland last year. That is more than twice the amount of 2018.

Take into consideration, that Tesla only sell BEV and nothing else.

Or to put it in comparison: 3444 BEVs were sold in Ireland last year. Tesla is nearly 8% of that. That's not niche anymore.

/M

Marlow

Oh ... and to add to that .. of those 270 Tesla sold last year, 187 were Model 3.

That's more than 2/3 of what Tesla is selling being able to peak at 250 kW.

And none of those figures include imports from the UK etc.

Only 133 Ioniq were sold. Nissan sold 1086 Leaf.



I don't think the 3rd ranking car manufacturer for electric cars based on sales in Ireland can be called "niche".

/M

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

Ionity is 350kW capable no?

Upgradeable but not currently enabled AFAIK and it wont make a blind bit of difference to anyone in the medium term as the majority of the cars wont come anywhere close to it.

Marlow wrote: »

... 2/3 of what Tesla is selling being able to peak at 250 kW.

Forget peak, its largely irrelevant. Its what can the car sustain for more than, at least, 5mins.

From what I can see on Bjorn's videos its hard enough to get the Model 3 to even take 175kW as the battery needs pre-conditioning to allow it. Alot of the charging is at levels well below that.

Now take into context Ireland... a small island. The opportunity to pre-condition the battery to 50°C is somewhat limited. By the time you've done 300km+ you're at the other end of the island. 250kW charging in Ireland will not be a common occurrence, even if someone shows it to us on the forum it will be an outlier example.

The vast vast majority of charging for the next, possibly 5 years, will be <150kW.

"All" new EV's that are due to release this year and next are spec'd for <125kW so its 175kW chargers we need which is about the limit that you can go to before you have to look at expensive liquid cooled cables.

The jump up from 175kW adds alot of cost so I'd rather see more 175kW chargers than to see 350kW but less of them.

50kW is the new slow alright though, should be for towns and shopping centres etc. 175kW for motorways and then upgrade those when there is demand for it.

Marlow

KCross wrote: »

50kW is the new slow alright though, should be for towns and shopping centres etc. 175kW for motorways and then upgrade those when there is demand for it.

Yep. But 100kW won't hack it. And more density in the charging network is still needed.

/M

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

Upgradeable but not currently enabled AFAIK and it wont make a blind bit of difference to anyone in the medium term as the majority of the cars wont come anywhere close to it.




Forget peak, its largely irrelevant. Its what can the car sustain for more than, at least, 5mins.

From what I can see on Bjorn's videos its hard enough to get the Model 3 to even take 175kW as the battery needs pre-conditioning to allow it. Alot of the charging is at levels well below that.

Now take into context Ireland... a small island. The opportunity to pre-condition the battery to 50°C is somewhat limited. By the time you've done 300km+ you're at the other end of the island. 250kW charging in Ireland will not be a common occurrence, even if someone shows it to us on the forum it will be an outlier example.

The vast vast majority of charging for the next, possibly 5 years, will be <150kW.

"All" new EV's that are due to release this year and next are spec'd for <125kW so its 175kW chargers we need which is about the limit that you can go to before you have to look at expensive liquid cooled cables.

The jump up from 175kW adds alot of cost so I'd rather see more 175kW chargers than to see 350kW but less of them.

50kW is the new slow alright though, should be for towns and shopping centres etc. 175kW for motorways and then upgrade those when there is demand for it.

Agree with all of the above, that's it in a nutshell. Great post.

liamog

As far as I'm aware, CCS is limited to 200A (approx 80kW) without liquid cooled cables. Here's an article about Ionity retrofitting them on their earlier stations in Norway.

https://www.electrive.com/2019/02/14/tritium-equips-its-ionity-sites-with-liquid-cooled-cables/

The ABB models (as used in Ireland) were liquid cooled from day 1.

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

As far as I'm aware, CCS is limited to 200A (approx 80kW) without liquid cooled cables. Here's an article about Ionity retrofitting them on their earlier stations in Norway.

https://www.electrive.com/2019/02/14/tritium-equips-its-ionity-sites-with-liquid-cooled-cables/

That's the limit for CCS1, 200a.
Above 200a requires CCS2 and cooled cables.


(As an aside, this is why the triplets are limited to 80kW theoretical max)

Marlow

liamog wrote: »

As far as I'm aware, CCS is limited to 200A (approx 80kW) without liquid cooled cables. Here's an article about Ionity retrofitting them on their earlier stations in Norway.

https://www.electrive.com/2019/02/14/tritium-equips-its-ionity-sites-with-liquid-cooled-cables/

That article is about Denmark .. different country

Also, it would be 160kW at 800V, but I think the Porsche Taycan is the only one that is capable of that currently.

/M

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

That's the limit for CCS1, 200a.
Above 200a requires CCS2 and cooled cables.


(As an aside, this is why the triplets are limited to 80kW theoretical max)

Correct, I was responding to KCross, who was trying to avoid the requirement for 'expensive' liquid cooled cables.

ELM327

Marlow wrote: »

That article is about Denmark .. different country

Also, it would be 160kW at 800V, but I think the Porsche Taycan is the only one that is capable of that currently.

/M

It is notionally but they limit the kW at lower amperage meaning you cannot always utilize 800V

liamog

Marlow wrote: »

That article is about Denmark .. different country

The CCS standard doesn't change by country. (well OK North America uses a different plug design, but you get my point)